Goex Olde Eynsford Blackpowder

[HPT]

Read this on the Powder Inc website part of a March 20, 2013 post:

"Olde Eynsford -- we got some. A little bit of the 'Olde E' (I call it "old inn-sferd") -- in 1.5F, 2F, and 3F. Phone orders only on the Old Eynsford premium powders, until we get in enough to open online orders for this powder, as well. Truck is in, we are filling backorders, Swiss 3F is back, Olde Eynsford by phone."

Anyone tried some?

[John Boy]

Don McDowell has some. Plus read this thread ...
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20000

Plus the powder has been discussed since it was announced and you have read the posts on Shiloh

[Don McDowell]

I'm pretty sure the only part of "rivaling Swiss" they got right on this first small batch is the screen size. I'm thinking we got hoodwinked pretty badly on this stuff,and some of us spent 123$ on a 5lb order of stuff that may make Elephant look like a superior grade sporting powder.
Hogdons may want to consider refunding a bunch of money or at least sending everyone that fell into this claptrap a replacement order of powder, if nothing else just for consideration of us doing the testing they should have done before they released this ****.

[John Boy]

Thanks Don. Our suspicions were dead nuts on the mark and you just saved me $124 to find out Olde E is the same old-same old Goex **** powder! They would have been better off running more batches of CTG instead of discontinuing this grade...
He who has enough Cartridge in inventory to last until I die! And every can survived Super Storm Sandy!:grin:

[Lead pot]

I just got 10# each of 1.5 and 2F this morning and just started to load a few rounds of each but I killed the chronograph on the last outing.
I guess maybe it's time to get some new sensors.

[HPT]

Thanks again Don,

My buddy has 3 lbs of Swiss left from the last batch we were able to get up here.He'll probably be willing to sell it to me since he hasn't switched to Swiss yet, so I think I'll go that route.

[Don McDowell]

John I for the life of me don't know why they just didn't use the Express recipe and screen it to the smaller size.
Leadpot I'm really looking forward to seeing what you can do with it . I won't be shooting any of it for another week or so, unless I can talk my helper into shooting it thru buttugly. I want to shoot it thru that rifle with postells, creedmoors and patched rounds as I have good chrono data to compare this stuff with.

[John Boy]

Don, you've got a chronograph, right? Compare them fps & SD to buttugly if you would. Thanks

[Don McDowell]

John that's been my plan, now just need to get a few things healed up and we'll be ready to go.

[Lead pot]

I got my powder this morning and went right down to the mole den and threw 12 together. The powder does weigh less the the KIK with the same volume in the case but I don't have a chronograph working right now so I cant say if the velocity is much different then the KIK.
I shot 4-3 shot groups using 90 grains of 1.5 and 2F for a starting load compressed .370" and using the .44-100 caliber with the PP 477 gr prolate bullet and the 500 grain bullet that is the KAL elliptical.
The low shot on the top target was a fault of the cam that locks down the elevation on the MVA scope came loose on the third shot on the top target and the first shot on the right hand target below it is the low shot a couple inches at 6 o-clock.
I shot these at my 130 yard short range in my yard.
All in all the first time out with this powder I cant find fault with it even though the rifle shoots a lot tighter at this distance using the KIK. We will see when I start to develop the load how it will shoot.
The fouling test one long slow exhale with the blow tube followed with a dry patch pushed through with ease and it came out wet, a little dryer then the KIK would be and the final barrel clean up I saw no difference. Three damp patches followed by three dry patches, the last one came out just as white as it went in.



http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1309_zpsb8a1dd23.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1309_zpsb8a1dd23.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

Good doins Kurt. I loaded 20 for testing. 70 grs by weight is a tight fit in ww 45-70 cases

[Gunlaker]

Good doins Kurt. I loaded 20 for testing. 70 grs by weight is a tight fit in ww 45-70 cases

Don are you saying that only 70gr of the new powder will fit in an empty case, or is this seated with a bullet? If with a bullet then can you say how far from the case mouth your powder column is and how much compression? It sounds like I'm going to miss my Goes FFg Express when it runs out this summer.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris the 1.5 in a 70 gr volume measure only weighs a little over 64 grs, so when you step it up to a full 70 grs by weight it fills the case. I did measure 77 grs of it and poured into a 44-77 case and there's not much but about .1 below the case mouth.
Waiting anxiously to get a chance to run these loads over the chrono to see just what sort of velocity they give.

[RMulhern]

I'm mighty proud most of you guys don't shoot KIK! It might get short!!

[Lead pot]

Rick,

I do my best not to lock my self into just using one brand of powder or methods in the way to load that round. I use what ever I have to to get the most out of my rifle that it is capable of shooting. I get equal accuracy using KIK, Swiss, and Goex. and this also goes for the bullets the powder push down the barrel being a GG or PP.
This new Olde powder from the few shots I fired using it with several loads and different bullets it is proving so far to be a good powder at the 135 yards I have tested it in my back yard. All the groups I have shot to this point have been 1-1/4" or less. Not a bad start for just filling a case with powder and sticking a bullet in with out developed a accuracy load.
Right at this point I dont have a working chronograph so I cant see what the ES and SD are or what the diff is as far as fps, really for me the bottom line is what the target shows and so far it's nothing to sneeze at.
This powder is lighter by volume then KIK and a bunch more then Swiss, but just because I cant get 100 grains in the case like Swiss would weigh dont mean that the 92 grains of Olde wont do the same thing. Besides I will get a lot more cases loaded per pound. and that is a + for me as much as I shoot.
Like I said I dont know what the velocity is but I can tell that the dirt kickes up pretty quick behind the target and I get a little more recoil.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Don. I suppose I'll give it a try anyway if the local distributor has any. I'd definitely give KIK, or any other brand a try if I could find it in Canada, but no such luck.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris , this Enysford stuff should come available up there as soon as they get enough of it made to get shipped to all the distributors.Right now they've just made a small batch, and as far as I know Powder Inc. is the only place that got any. Maybe get to chronograph some this afternoon or tomorrow, but will post up the numbers when I get them.
You might contact Western Powders, or look for one of their Canadian distributors about the KIK, it's their powder and down here the only place I'm aware of to get it is thru Powder Inc.

[Don McDowell]

Had another thought, it looks like Hogdons/goex has a spot reserved on traders row at the Quigley, you might be able to come down shoot with us and get a dab of powder to carry home? not sure how that works going north with stuff.

[Don McDowell]

Ran a short sample over the chrono. Looks like from a 28 inch barrel 45-70 this 2f is capable of hurling a 530 gr bullet at 1220 fps.

[Lead pot]

Any idea how that compares with the same volume of KIK?

[Don McDowell]

The 2f is alittle over a gr. lighter than KIK and Express. The 1.5 is 5+ grs lighter than KIK.

[John Boy]

These are scale weights ... I don't load by volume

Any idea how that compares with the same volume of KIK?


Lyman 457132 Postell - 536gr - 1:20 - BR2 Primer - 0.225 Compression - 0.08 dry felt wad
68gr 2010 KIK 1.5Fg socked .... Avg velocity - 1087 ... SD 23
68gr 2010 KIK 1.5Fg .... Avg velocity - 1062 ... SD 9.5
68gr 2010 KIK 2Fg socked .... Avg velocity - 1113 ... SD 4
68gr 2010 KIK 2Fg .... Avg velocity - 1138 ... SD 7
Fouling semi moist, no 'tree limb' size charcoal, 3 patches to clean bore
16 May 2011
Temp - 60 F
RH - 78%

Don, do me a favor - charge 100grs in a volumetric measure (settled and not settled) and let me know the scale weights ... Density test

[firefly1957]

Thanks for the reminders i have a can of SWISS 1 1/2 G i am getting ready to load some Sharps 50-3 1/3 " cases with and was thinking of using the scale as my Goex FG was dead on weight for volume but i have not checked the Swiss and this could have been a big mistake!!!

[Don McDowell]

John density wise the 2f Old e runs very close to KIK,Express and regular 2f. The 1.5 old E in a 70 gr volume is 4 grs lighter than the same volume of KIK 1.5, Cartridge falls square in the middle between Old E and KIK 1.5
If you pm me your mailing addy ( for the life of me can't find it in my collection of stuff) I'll send you all the patches from the cleanup between loads and the field cleanup.

[Red River Rick]

I'm mighty proud most of you guys don't shoot KIK! It might get short!!

Rick:

I took your advice and imported a case of that KIK 2F, nice and clean compared to Goex. But, I haven't shot enough of that KIK BP to really find out how well it is compared to the other brands.

HPT:

If your wanting to try some of that KIK powder, give me a call.

RRR

[Buzzard II]

I bought 10 lbs of Cartridge and 25 lbs of 2F KIK last year. Looks like I lucked out this time!

[firefly1957]

140 grs by volume of Swiss 1 1/2 G weighed 150 grs. I should have gone though my notes before loading it would have saved me a couple other problems but cases are loaded and just waiting for a good day to shoot now.

[Lead pot]

Well I have shot up 2# of Olde now, 1# of 1.5 and 1# of 2 with several different levels of compression and It is a good shooting powder from what I have found. BUT this powder looks like black powder but that is about as far as it goes because it sure dont have the characteristics that blk powder has. It is faster then the blk I have been using by quite a bit, it does not smell like blk powder, infact it has no oder when I soak the cases in water, but right now I wouldn't smell a skunk if I stepped on him from the cold I have. The fouling in the brass when extracted does not look like black powder as I know it. Today it was fairly calm about 7 to 10 mph wind and I paid attention to the smoke and there is less of it then a load of the KIK and old Goex I have been using.
But the give away is the lack of sulfur oder when cleaning the brass, it's just not there. This powder acts like the old less smoke .22 rim cartridges I used back when I was a kid because I could buy them for less money.
I sure would like to know what this stuff really is.

[John Boy]

This powder acts like the old less smoke .22 rim cartridges Lead Pot, one of the ingredients of Lesmok was wood cellulose
66244
Scanning electron micrograph of wood cellulose

* No taste
* Odourless
* Insoluble in water
* Biodegradable
* Can be broken down chemically into it’s glucose units by treating it with concentrated acids at high temperatures

I have a box - don't plan to pull any heads to compare to Ole E though
66248

Read this carefully ...
Kings Semi Smokeless consisted of 20 parts nitrated wood, 60 parts saltpeter, 12 parts charcoal, and 8 parts sulfur. Just like a black powder with a nitrocellulose kicker. DuPont produced a powder that was essentially the same under the name Lesmok.

Nitrated wood started of as wood chips soaked in a solution of Potassium Nitrate so that the wood may be provided witht he oxygen to burn; and this is going to be used for 4,000 years and into warzone. This method provides a cheaper propellent for firearms sinse it doesn't need to deal with the process of having the wood turn into charcoal, which expended wood to burn wood inside a container, so it was used because the process is not so difficult. However, based on the proportions of sulfur and potassium nitrate, the smoke can be relatively low. Making it the first 'smokeless' powder, ...
* Potassium Nitrate into water.
* Wood into chipper.
* Chips into Pottasium nitrate solution.
* Slurry into drying area (fire place, sun, etc.)

I ordered the 3 grades of Olde E from Jerry today to do some 'in the can' and range testing

[w30wcf]

John,
Thank you for the history lesson. The early bulk smokeless powders were made from Wood Cellulose and compared to b.p. their weight was about 60% less.

Regarding the early Semi- Smokeless powders.....
Powder measure set at 40.0 =
32.0 grs. - Kings Semi Smokeless
27.0 grs. - DuPont Lesmok

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

w30wcf, you probably ought to get an order of this Old Eynsford in. It's outrunning Swiss in the velocity dept. is quite a bit less dense than even Goex , yet still turns in good velocities. It responds very well to compression. I think the 3f might just be the real deal in the wcf cartridges.

[w30wcf]

Don,
Good idea. I'll try some in the .44-40 24" Marlin and see how it does. I will say that Swiss 3F will push a 215 gr. cast bullet to close to 1,450 f.p.s. in testing but I prefer to keep velocities around 1,300 f.p.s. just like the original.

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

I have little doubt that the way the 2 and 1.5 have acted in the big rifle cases, the 3f will sling bullets very fast. The stuff seems to get a bunch more uniform in the spreads with some a bit more compression from actual weights thrown, than when just running off of volume. 35 grs of the 2f fits very handily in a 44-40 or 45 colt case, at this time tho I don't have any 45 colt bullets bp lubed, or we'ld know what that runs out of a 5.5 inch barrel.

[Don McDowell]

32 grs 2f, 4.5 in bisley clone 38-40 avg of 25 rounds 20 ft from the muzzle 960 fps... 50 rounds the gun never tied up and is still ready to run.

[Nobade]

This and the thread over at Shiloh are very interesting. I wonder if we have any chemists present who can tell what is in this powder?

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

I'm guessing it's just a nitrated wood powder much like the Kings Semismokeless, Dupont and Winchesters Lessmok, and Remington UMC had one as well right at the end of the bp era , just before smokeless became useable.
With Hogdons owning IMR (used to be Dupont) Winchester and Goex (also used to be DuPont) it stand to reason that somewhere in the back of a file cabinet somewhere laid the recipe for that powder.

[John Boy]

I'm guessing it's just a nitrated wood powder much like the Kings Semismokeless, Dupont and Winchesters LessmokHey Don, do a hammer test with Old E and let us know the results ;-)...

Semi-smokeless powder, even if it was as safe as black powder, still wasn't safe to handle. It could be set off by static electricity or even by hitting it with a hammer (or getting rowdy with a powder measure)

In 1869 a German immigrant named Carl Dittmar came to America. He had worked from time to time with another man named Schultze. Schultze went to England and specialized in true smokeless powder made from nitrated wood pulp. Dittmar used nitrated wood pulp, but in a hybrid mixture.
Backers became interested enough in Dittmar's ideas to build a factory in Binghamton, New York in 1878. In 1881 the factory blew up and destroyed most of Binghamton.

[Don McDowell]

Did that yesterday John. It wouldn't go off. It will make a nice flash in the pan of a flintlock.

[John Boy]

Thanks for the hammer test. That possibly eliminates the nitrated charcoal with nitroglycerine


It will make a nice flash in the pan of a flintlockDon, so will even Old E' FFFg juiced up with sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate;-)

[Don McDowell]

It was 2f I tested in the flintlock pan.

[John Boy]

It was 2f I tested in the flintlock pan
Don, that was a good test to determine the ignition quality of Olde E'. When I get my shipment from Jerry, I'll try some 1 1/2 Fg in the pan of my Hawkins and some straight FFFFg. Any bets the sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate is going to light the pan up equally?

[Don McDowell]

I don't know John, when 40 years ago we were doing the living history thing with the NPS, the only powder we could have was gov issue, and that was 1f. About 3 or 4 of them hunks of coal did a pretty fair job of setting off the charge well enough to "hit the mark" at 50 yds and get oohs and ahhs from the onlookers..
What will really be interesting is what sort of numbers you get from your chrono and what sort of groups you get. I'm really thinking the CAS bunch is going to like the 2f in their rifles..
Right now if I was a dedicated diehard trapdoor shooter, I'ld be all over the 1.5, 65 grs by weight should throw either govt bullet to the sights, and as agreeable as this fouling seems to be should let a trapdoor run for quite awhile before problems jump up..

[oldred]

Hey Don, do a hammer test with Old E and let us know the results ;-)...

Semi-smokeless powder, even if it was as safe as black powder, still wasn't safe to handle. It could be set off by static electricity or even by hitting it with a hammer (or getting rowdy with a powder measure)

In 1869 a German immigrant named Carl Dittmar came to America. He had worked from time to time with another man named Schultze. Schultze went to England and specialized in true smokeless powder made from nitrated wood pulp. Dittmar used nitrated wood pulp, but in a hybrid mixture.
Backers became interested enough in Dittmar's ideas to build a factory in Binghamton, New York in 1878. In 1881 the factory blew up and destroyed most of Binghamton.


I came across an old newspaper article about that explosion a while back while looking for info on the 1940s Texas City Texas explosion, just thought it might be of interest here.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B04E0DB133FEE3ABC4A51DFB266838A699FDE

[John Boy]

Red, thanks kindly for posting the article. This kind of detailed information never makes the history books. A copy of the article is also residing now on my computer in - Black Powder History :smile:

Binghamton is a town familiar to me. I grew up in Elmira and spent a lot of time in the Binghamton and Johnson City area hunting and fishing

[Don McDowell]

Shot at 650 yds today. This stuff does not like the wiping routine that KIK and Goex express and Cartridge get along fine with. So those loads will need revisiting if I decide to try the Accurate .434 bullet again.
It did however work extremely well with the shortened tankbuster bullet, with nothing more than the muzzleloading specialty dry lubed felt wad and the NAPA rubberized cork wad, and no more fouling control than a blowtube...
Shot some 2f fireforming cases and about all that accomplished was trigger time under live fire conditions...

[Mike Brooks]

So, I won't be able to dump some of this in a cartridge and shoot all 10X's?;)

[Don McDowell]

Of course you can Mike, it might not be the first time out with it tho.[smilie=s:

[frontier gander]

I have a sample of the second batch of olde eynsford. CVA Hawken with 32" 1:66 twist barrel @ 100 yards shooting 110grains volume OE 1 1/2 Fg, .020" patch lubed with moose milk and .570" round ball. Same as goex? No way in heck!
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Olde%20Eynsford/DSCN6597.jpg

[Don McDowell]

I ran 50 rounds of paper patch loads thru the #3 Shiloh 45-70 just goofing around on Thursday at the Quigley. Hit ratio just using the ladder sights across the entire course ran about 50%, and the only cleaning patch the rifle saw that day was when it got back to camp. Took about 4 patches to get the bore all squeaky clean and ready for the bore conditioner.
Next time we see that rifle it will be a 44-77.:-D