accuracy trouble

[XWrench3]

its been a while since i have been here, sorry, had things i was forced to do. but i am now in a place where i can play for a while. i have had decent results loading with "J" bullets, getting good, repeatable groups, in all of my rifles. but i am having trouble finding a good cast boolit load, that will repeat. i have found several that looked good, but i have been doing this long enough to know one set of holes in paper does not make a good verified, repeatable load. i am weighing all the cases, using the same components each time, hand weighing every charge, even started weight sorting the cast boolits as a last resort. i just can not find the magic. i never felt like l.l.a. was good rifle lubricant. but i now have a lyman lube/sizer, which was the best money i have spent in a long time. the one thing that i can not yet measure, well, now that i think of it, 2 things. the first one is lead hardness. i am using wheel weights, plus 1% tin, just to make them cast good. but i can not test the brinnel hardness in any way. the other thing that just popped into my brain was i can not measure run-out. i am sure the second one can and will have an effect. but what about hardness? f.w.i.w. i am having trouble in my 30-30 marlin 336, and my remington 700, 300 win mag. i am not trying to make these barn burners! if i need that, i have several good "J" loads i can fall back on. i am just trying to get less than 2" groups @ 100 yards, from a good solid rest. i have no trouble getting sub moa with all of them in "J" projectiles. i am just having a hard time figuring these out. i am thinking i need a fresh set of eyes on the project.

[runfiverun]

all that and you forgot the first rule of cast boolit shooting.

[RobS]

1. Boolit fit
2. Fill the throat the best you can
3. Seat to just touch the lands works best for me
4. Depending on the twist rate and velocity you may have to run a harder alloy (water quenched WW alloy)
5. I prefer to use slower burning powders to help fill the case more
6. I have also had better luck with softer lubes that are not so darn hard and/or tacky; I mix a lithibee/stp mix that works quite well for my rifle loads as well as others

1-10" twist rate barrels are tougher to get accuracy with when ringing velocity out especially when all your ducks aren't in a row.

[Pilgrim]

You don't mention a whole bunch of stuff needed to help you. Like; the boolit (s) being used. Some are more forgiving than others. The powders being tried, fillers (?), seating (are the boolits into the lands, or ?), what is your target velocity range, GC's (?), lubes, boolit size, bore size, and more items can all be important. Are your barrels squeaky clean and free of copper fouling. Starting with a clean bore for cast is usually critical. Weighing boolits at this time is a huge waste of time. Weighing cases fits in with weighing boolits. Don't bother. Boolit runout is another waste of time. Load them so the boolits are seated into the lands. Let the barrel correct any runout issues. Are you brutal in boolit examination prior to sizing and lubing? You seem to be approaching this as if you were developing loads for j*** rounds. Boolits aren't jacketed and seldom behave like them. I could go on, but I suspect I may have said too much already. Don't give up! A suggestion is to concentrate on the .30-30. Magnum cartridges are usually more difficult to work with re: accuracy due to case volume. When you do work with the .300, consider case fillers to hold the powder against the primer to reduce velocity variations due to ignition variations. FWIW Pilgrim

[RobS]

I don't use case fillers with the big ole 375 H&H. 58 grain of Varget behind a 265 grain HP cast boolit or a 270 grain solid cast boolit and a way we go MOA with single digit spreads. I shoot golf balls at 100 yards for the fun of it which becomes boring after a short while. Granted a case filler could be needed with some loads though.

[303Guy]

I knew it! The 375 H&H is made for cast.

From what I've seen/done and read/heard, I'd suggest you can't go wrong with Varget. I'd also suggest fillers can be of help when boolit fit isn't perfect and for plain base boolits (to protect against boolit base peening and seal the bore).

[RobS]

I knew it! The 375 H&H is made for cast.

It is!!! Very much like the 30-30 :Fire:

[44man]

I love Varget.
But run out is a huge problem with cast. Maybe the very worst because lead will not straighten in the bore. Start crooked, shoot crooked.
Since I started playing with bottle neck rifle cartridges again I have seen run out as much as .020" even with the best dies and loading I can do. It is driving me nuts.
I made my own run out measuring tool from scrap and a cheap dial indicator. I size and measure to find .001" or less on necks but after slowly seating with a die with a guide, I still get some. I have reduced it but not as much as I want. I made larger expanders and it helped.
I found a lube sizer sizes off center many times so went to Lee push through dies.
Anything you do to ruin a boolit will cost you whether slump or obturation. I do not believe in obturation, just fit to start. A crooked boolit in the brass has to be the worst.
Size a boolit off center and it will never seat straight.

[Doc Highwall]

What diameter are you sizing the bullets to, and are you expanding the case necks and if so what are you using?

[44man]

What diameter are you sizing the bullets to, and are you expanding the case necks and if so what are you using?
I don't know who you asked here but I size .311" for the Marlin and expand to .310".
It has helped but I need some tension in the tube magazine. Just enough crimp too.
I also used the .310" expander in the 30-06 Enfield with .309" boolits. They fit fine but I still got run out with some. I blame my lube sizer so I ordered a .309" lee. Everything is on back order.

[felix]

Finger tight seating, no machines, will perform the best every time. Looser the feel-fit in the case, the better the accuracy, but worse in terms of practicality. Talking about unsized cases for the most part. The assumption is that the boolit is sized right-on and the powder speed is appropriate for the next to zero boolit pull resistance. ... felix

It's danged hard to beat the accuracy of competition grade pellet guns. ... felix

[Doc Highwall]

Here is a thread I started a while back about what I have done/started on my quest for accuracy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?90241-Modifying-Dies-For-Cast-Bullet-Shooting

I am in the process of making more expanders in .0005" steps to control neck tension. I also have a pressure trace system to use along with the chronograph.

[44man]

Here is a thread I started a while back about what I have done/started on my quest for accuracy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?90241-Modifying-Dies-For-Cast-Bullet-Shooting

I am in the process of making more expanders in .0005" steps to control neck tension. I also have a pressure trace system to use along with the chronograph.
I admire what you do, a man after my own heart.
The perfect round is made at the bench, never in the gun.

[Tazman1602]

XMWrench,

FWIW ditch the 300 mag for now and concentrate on the 30-30, it's much more cast friendly. I personally will not cast for anything other than a 30-30 in the .30 cal range. *Most* of my efforts have been with .338 and up. I have especially good luck with the bigger bore, slower rifle cartridges.

First question man, is WHAT, EXACTLY is your bore size and what are you sizing the bullets too? This cured a plethora of issues with my cast shooting in rifles. Size .001 - .002 over bore size for proper fit.

In other words, before you cast a bullet, slug the bore to find out where you should start, that 30-30 should be an excellent cast shooter. Here's a pic of my .450 Marlin with cast loads:

65765

So you know it can be done. My 45-70's shoot as well and thanks to my buddy Hardcast416Taylor I'm working on .338 WinMag right now.

...........of course, thanks to my buddy Hardcast416Taylor I am also looking at making a Mosin a big bore rifle too..........THANKS BOB! I really needed another project!

Keep at it man, sooner or later you'll get it figured out. I had cast bullets for handguns for 20 years and I started out with .30 cal rifles and *almost* gave it up as you just can't do that until I found this forum some years back. Lots of help here and if you need an answer google works better than the search function on the forum........it will point you right back here to the right thread.

Art

[cbrick]

But run out is a huge problem with cast. Maybe the very worst because lead will not straighten in the bore. Start crooked, shoot crooked.

I found a lube sizer sizes off center many times so went to Lee push through dies.
Anything you do to ruin a boolit will cost you whether slump or obturation. I do not believe in obturation, just fit to start. A crooked boolit in the brass has to be the worst.
Size a boolit off center and it will never seat straight.

44man brought up three very important things here that don't seem to get mentioned enough.

1> No, the bullet will not straighten itself in the throat or bore. Run-out needs to be minimal.

2> The in & out sizers do size off center. The better term is they do not size concentric. Best concentricity is sizing nose first with a flat punch & flat boolit base in a straight thru die such as the LEE or the Star.

3> 44man may not believe in obturation though he is 100% correct about fit. There is more to obturation than the base swelling to fit the groove diameter, also important is the boolit being able to back fill the trailing edge of the rifling, this too is obturation and it is here that too hard an alloy and/or too fast a powder can hurt and cause leading by gas cutting the edge of the boolit.

Rick

[Tazman1602]

Rick,

I recently (within the last year....) discovered with my flat nose cast bullets that Tom at Accurate Molds makes flat-nose punches to use with either Lyman or RCBS LAM II sizers that work VERY well to avoid the issue of off center sizing for me anyway. Just thought I'd mention that one...

Art

[cbrick]

Art, I think that is the problem, mostly with rifle boolits. A flat punch should help a great deal when sizing flat nose pistol boolits in the in & out sizers. Many handgun boolits have a flat nose but far fewer rifle boolits. However a poor fitting nose punch grabs the boolit is how it is going to push it into the die.

Rick

[Tazman1602]

You are absolutely right Rick, I didn't take "pointy" bullets into consideration since all of mine are flat point.

With the lack of ammo lately, I have taken to fixing and shooting my collection of Rossi rifles in handgun calibers -- those I *can* cast for and still afford to shoot.

FWIW my RCBS LAM II is in MUCH better alignment that the old Lyman is, thanks for reminding me that not everyone shoots exactly what I do...........DUH!

OH to be able to afford a Star.............<grin>

Art



Art, I think that is the problem, mostly with rifle boolits. A flat punch should help a great deal when sizing flat nose pistol boolits in the in & sizers. Many handgun boolits have a flat nose but far less rifle boolits. However a poor fitting nose punch grabs the boolit is how it is going to push it into the die.

Rick

[44man]

Rick, that is true. Obturation to bump up under size boolits is bad---(OOPS, BACKWARDS, bump up is first.) But some expansion to seal or maintain seal is different.
The term is used to say a small boolit should expand to fit. I don't like that. To keep the right size boolit sealed is where we should be.
It is only the two versions of obturation that is hard to explain. Since the word means SEAL and not to bump a boolit way up first, a boolit that fits first will sure obturate.
It is a definition of the word and how it is achieved.
Soft, undersize boolits need to expand to obturate. Fit needs no expansion. Hard undersize also needs to expand to obturate but fit needs no expansion.

[303Guy]

The problem with bump up is concentricity. Three things can happen; the boolit bumps up misaligned and/or bumps up unevenly and the nose can slump.

Something not mentioned is boolit weight and length. In a rifle, the longer the boolit the better the bore alignment is going to be if the fit is right. The high the sectional density the boolit the better the powder burn meaning that slower powders can be used to better effect. I consider a heavy for calibre cast boolit to make better use of the rifle's power with cast. Velocity attainable does not change (much) so energy, momentum and BC are better. They also use up more alloy which means you get to go out lead shopping for lead more and do more alloying - that's a good thing, right?:roll:

[Pilgrim]

My first RCBS lube sizer was out of alignment and gave me screwed up sized and lubed boolits. Sent it back to RCBS and very shortly got a replacement that is in line. Boolit problem eliminated

[cbrick]

Pilgrim, it's not so much an out of alignment machine, that's kinda rare. It's how and how well the nose punch grabs the nose of the bullet. However it grabs is how it's going to push the boolit into the die and often that's slanted somewhat. The more concentric method of sizing is a flat boolit base pushed straight thru the die with a flat punch.

Rick

[Pilgrim]

My only problem with push thru is then lubing becomes a seperate step. As I noted earlier, I'm a bit lazy. The sizer-luber, + nose punch is supposed to give you good boolits. If it doesn't, then you are not paying enough attention to what you are doing, or the equipment is out of whack. I completely agree with you re: flat base boolits and flat nose punches. You have a better chance at concentricity with that approach. However, the use of a lubrisizer does not necessarily result in out of round or otherwise screwed up boolits. Ya gotta pay attention...

[geargnasher]

But run out is a huge problem with cast. Maybe the very worst because lead will not straighten in the bore. Start crooked, shoot crooked.

Runout isn't the only thing that causes a crooked start, there are several, and all fixable at the reloading bench.

I see Rick caught it, but I'm surprised nobody else did. "Start crooked, Shoot crooked" is probably the single best thing to keep in mind when doping out loading techniques for cast boolits. They will not straighten out without accuracy-destroying damage once they're moving past a certain speed, and unless you're really stretching the pressure curve or cushioning the boolit while it's finding its way (hopefully) straight into the bore, you will have problems with a crooked start. Ever notice that rock hard revolver boolits in a gun with a slight cylinder wiggle and slow powder shoot well? I thought you might have! Ever notice that rifles, with tough, flexible boolits of the correct nose shape and a tiny bit of wiggle room when loaded shoot better?

Gear

[cbrick]

the use of a lubrisizer does not necessarily result in out of round or otherwise screwed up boolits. Ya gotta pay attention...

Nobody said anything about out of round, I said concentric and that's two very different things. I compared bullets sized in an RCBS and a SAECO and a Star on a machine shop comparator. The difference in CONCETRICITY was amazing.

Hhmmm . . . Pay attention, I'll give that a try now that I know what my problem has been.

Rick

[Pilgrim]

Pi***ng contest not needed. However, with a solid cylinder, just what is the difference between out of round and concentricity? I don't understand your point. Sorry...

[geargnasher]

Out of round means any cross-section of the boolit which isn't, well, ROUND, i.e. elliptical or even ovoid. Concentric means that the different-diameter cross sections of the boolit, i.e. bottom of the lube grooves, driving bands, nose portions, etc., aren't, well CONCENTRIC with each other.

An example of a non-concentric boolit is one that gets forced to one side as it goes into the sizer, resulting in more band swaging on one side than the other relative to the nose and lube groove minor diameters. If the boolit were collapsed, the exact center of the circles described by the middle of the nose, the driving bands, and the bottom of the lube grooves wouldn't be on the same center with each other.

An example of an out of round boolit is one cast from a "Beagled" mould, or many of the lyman moulds of late, which is like splitting the entire boolit lengthwise, removing a layer, and putting it back together again so a cross-section at ANY point is shaped more like a football than a circle.

Gear

[Pilgrim]

Thanks ! If I understand you correctly, the outside surface of the boolit becomes out of round which causes the bottoms of the lube grooves to become non- concentric with the outside surface of the boolit. That's well outside my experience base. With the bad RCBS lube-sizer, the outside surface of the boolit was distorted. For sure the bottom of the lube grooves would then be non-concentric with the outside of the boolit. At least it would seem so. I 've never attempted to measure that relationship. I've not observed sizing to ever effect the bottom of the lube grooves. Quite honestly I never concerned myself with that relationship. If the boolit came out of the mould concentric, and the outside of the boolit wasn't distorted during the sizing & lubing, then I assumed the relationship between the outer surface of the boolit and the bottom of the lube grooves remained as accurate as that mould was machined. With the replacement machine, the damage to the outside of the boolit went away. Re: paying attention I was referring to observing the top punch-bullet nose relationship. In my experience that has been fairly easy to observe. If the fit and alignment were close, I did not see any boolit damage in using the machine. Re: runout, when that has concerned me I used an in-line bullet seater. They help, but not as much as I expected that they would have. I still had some runout, but it was reduced to the .001 to .003 range and that is about as close to perfect as I could get using Wilson dies with my bench gun. When I was referring to seating the boolit into the lands and letting the barrel help to remove the runout, I had not considered that the round might be quickly rammed into the chamber, and that the boolit was not free (relatively speaking) to move in the case neck.

[geargnasher]

Roll a sized boolit across a smooth table and watch for nose and lube groove oscillations.

If you start a perfect boolit crooked into the throat, it will not be concentric by the time it is engraved, same as if you'd screwed it up with an out-of-alignment sizer ram and close-fitting top punch.

So the boolit needs to be concentric, have as little runout in the case as possible, and be straight with the bore when the cartridge is fully chambered. What methods you use to achieve that is up to you.

Gear

[44man]

Yes, rolling a round on a flat table is an instant way to see what you have. Some look like they are paddling a boat.
I found my old RCBS sizer top ram was worn and pushing sideways (front to rear actually.) even though I always kept it clean and lubed. Nothing came out concentric. I drilled and tapped around the boss and put brass screws in that I could adjust made it better but I still don't like it.

[cbrick]

An out of round bullet when measured with a micrometer is not the same all the way around. As an example, .454" on one side and .450" on the other.

Not concentric is the bullet can measure perfectly round when measuring the outside diameter with the micrometer but from the exact center line of the bullet (nose to base) it is a shorter distance from one side to the other, ie more of the bullet on one side of the center line than the other. The result is a very out of balance bullet even though round.

I first noticed this many years ago when holding some rifle bullets sized in a SAECO machine, with good light on the nose the front driving band was much thinner on one side but that sized bullet measured round on the outside. I sized up a bunch of bullets on the RCBS, the SAECO and a Star and took them to a friends machine shop and examined them at about 50X magnification on a comparator. The results were simply shocking, at 50X differences really show up. The center of the bullets sized with the RCBS and SAECO were offset (some worse than others) from the true center line of the bullets even though these bullets all measured round on the outside diameter. The Star (nose first straight thru) had some minor variations but insignificant compared with the in & out sizers. Thus I am firmly convinced that nose first straight thru sizing (Star or LEE) with a flat punch on a flat bullet base is a more concentric method of sizing.

That is the difference between out of round and not concentric. How much difference does this make? Probably little in short range and/or plinking ammo but I was working on 200 meter handgun loads where I had to be able hit a target the size of a pack of cigarettes with iron sights (shoot-off targets). I took that experiment seriously.

Rick

[Doc Highwall]

The Professor here makes a adapter for Lyman/RCBS top punch’s to allow them to float and find their own centers.

The top punch is held by a O-ring if I recall correctly.

[XWrench3]

sorry, forgot to mention bullet/bore size. i have been at the cast thing a while, and learned on pistols about that one, bore size is an actual .308" i have a Lee .309 and .3111 sizer. i bought the .311 after having trouble with lots of leading despite being +.001". i am now using the lyman 450 with .311 sizer. as far as throat size, i do not have a way to check it. no Cerosafe. yet. and definitely no machinists tools to reach in that far. leading is not an issue. period. i can shoot 200 or more without cleaning, and still have no detectible (shiny slivers) lead on the patches. i have used a bunch of different powders. pistol and rifle. Bullseye, Auto-Comp, HP-38, AA#2, IMR 4198, Varget, IMR 4831, Reloder 7 and 15, Win 748, IMR 4895 and Benchmark. the mold i am using primarily is a Lee 150g FNGC which i have used with and without gas checks. it by itself drops w.w. bullets @ .310". i have beagled it to drop bullets at .312 and .0316. i have shot it with unsized .312" slugs, hand applying lube, and wiping it off the cases afterwards. they chamber quite stiff. so i did not try to load an unsized .316" slug. not even sure i could get one into a case! i have also tried using the 300 mag bullet in the 30-30, which is a 200g rngc which drops out @ .311 and measures 186g in w.w. w a check. i also tried using some 170g fngc from a lyman die that a friend gave me. they were sized @ .311 and did not work any better. i am using the Lee FCD on every round. which i have tried setting to just de-flaring the neck to a very firm crimp. i do fine @ 50 and even 70, but after that the groups fall apart. as for the case necks, i am using a expander that lee sent me talking with them several times that opens the case up so that the o.d. measures a .001" difference after the bullet is seated. (no small hole gauges). i am flaring with the lee universal expander. if i could find a lyman "m" die, i would be using one of those. i love the idea of the chamber seating die. i just have no access to machines to make one, and really can not afford to buy one or more of them. boolit lubes, i have used, Lee lla, lla+ moly mixed in, Kendall "blu" hi temp grease, an automotive moly grease, my own home made concoction which basically has everything under the moon in it that has anything to do with lubricating. also straight alox from my friends press. ok, whats left, oh that's right, bore condition. i am a FANATIC about a clean barrel. i will probably put more wear on the barrel from brushes and patches that i will from bullets and boolits. i use so many patches that i really should start my own company! as far as copper goes, every time i shoot copper clad bullets the sweets comes out. period. fwiw, several years ago, i had a cast boolit load that shot less than 1/2" groups at 100 yards from the 300 mag. they were subsonic, and i had to aim 2 targets high on the board to get them to hit. but it was a good repeatable load. unfortunately, i kept all of my records in my computer, which died, and i could not retrieve any of 3 years worth of load data from it. now i have 3 different records of the newly acquired data. in "c" drive, in a flash drive, and in an external hard drive. plus i keep the original targets and shooting logs. so i should be able to retrieve data unless we have a fire or a tornado, or both. if that happens, everything will most likely be lost, and the data would dom me no good anyway.