25 ACP legal for Kansas deer

[Marvin S]

That's not a missprint, KS just made it legal by simplifying the law. It now reads that any center fire rifle or handgun is legal for big game. Sounds goofy to me but its true. I think I'll use the 32-20 this year.

[x101airborne]

Close enough distance, extreme confidence, and extreme accuracy..... I would use it also. Texas has that same general terminology in the law. "Any centerfire" and the 218 bee used to be real popular. So was (is) the 22 hornet. It is just not for me. Heck, I dont even use the 223 anymore.

[NVScouter]

Close enough distance, extreme confidence, and extreme accuracy..... I would use it also. Texas has that same general terminology in the law. "Any centerfire" and the 218 bee used to be real popular. So was (is) the 22 hornet. It is just not for me. Heck, I dont even use the 223 anymore.

Replace that with Headlock, or handfeeding. I personaly like the minimum power restrictions.

[Marvin S]

I dont really think its a smart idea to make it that unrestrictive but they never asked me

[runfiverun]

we have an "any weapon" deer season.
you wanna chase them down and rock em to death have at it.
of course that means my AR--15 with 30 round magazine is also a sporting rifle.

[fryboy]

i heard it and saw it in print at various ummm news places , at the time it still wasnt written in the regs. .... leaving me , at least until the regs. are amended, still using what i used before , currently they state this
"FIREARMS
Centerfire rifles and handguns that are not fully automatic and that fire a bullet larger than .23 inches in diameter and that use a cartridge case that is 1.280 inches or more in length (except that elk require a bullet larger than .25 inches in diameter a cartridge case length of 1.750 or longer), while using only hard-cast solid lead, soft point, hollow point, or other expanding bullets; shotguns 20-gauge (12-gauge for elk) or larger, using only slugs; and crossbows with draw weights of at least 125 pounds, with bolts at least 16 inches long equipped with broadhead points that cannot pass through a ring 3/4-inch in diameter. Non-broadhead bolts may be in possession while hunting. Range-finding devices and optical scopes or sights that project no visible light toward the target and do not electronically amplify visible or infrared light may be used. Any person who lawfully possesses a firearm suppressing device may use that device in conjunction with lawful hunting, fishing, and furharvesting."

http://www.kdwpt.state.ks.us/news/Hunting/Hunting-Regulations/Deer/Legal-Equipment


while it leaves out the 22 lr. i've been told by many wardens that it is the firearm of choice for poachers , i dont believe i'll load the hornet down to rimfire velocities ( nor use it ) but simply that deer can and have been killed with little cartridges , it is all about aim and shot placement after all ( erm and knowing where to place that shot )

[newton]

Well if the above rule is Kansas rule, then 25 acp is NOT legal. The case is only .615" long. So that would cut out quite a few smaller cases. In fact, the 357 mag barley squeezes in at 1.290".

Sounds like the rule is a GW's dream for tickets.

[newton]

Woops, maybe I am not understanding the OP versus the one above. My bad if so.

[fryboy]

the above blurb is ye olde standard that's been in effect for several years , it was stated earlier in the week and on several news sites that this year we will be able to use any center fire caliber ...while i like the thought , i myself will stick with what's in print at the dept of wildlife and parks , if they change it before deer season ...i may use something other than what i have been

here's but one of a few possible news stories

http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/Kansas-hunters-able-to-use-new-equipment-199836401.html

the meat of the matter

"The Kansas Department of Wildlife Parks and Tourism says deer hunters will be allowed to use any center fire rifle or handgun cartridge when deer season starts in September. Previously, hunters had to use ammunition with at least a .23 caliber bullet. Also, any gauge slugs will be allowed starting in the fall."


edit for add , we also currently have

"Senate Bill 152 amends existing law concerning hunting by allowing persons who have concealed carry license to carry concealed firearms while lawfully hunting and allowing the use of firearms suppression devices while lawfully hunting."

[Blammer]

we have an "any weapon" deer season.
you wanna chase them down and rock em to death have at it.

I busted a gut reading this laughing so hard. :)

[Reverend Al]

Been the same up here in B.C. for years ... "any centrefire cartridge" just no "rimfire cartridges" ... so my .17 Remington, 32-20 or .25 ACP is OK for Deer or even a Moose, but if you have a .41 Swiss rimfire, sorry you can't hunt with it! It all seems a bit strange and impractical, but then again it's a government regulation so nothing much really surprises me anymore!

[tg32-20]

When I was young, many years ago, in grew up in WA State in the backwoods. My gun for deer back then was an old, even then, Marlin 25-20. The deer are blacktail and not as big as a whitetail, but as a kid I lost track of how many I killed for the family table. We raised cattle for sale but venison was free, so you know what we ate. When I got older I graduated to the awesome 32-20, also an old Marlin. It all came down to shot placement and probably nothing was shot over 50 yards.

Now I guess I cheat a little because I shoot a 7-30 Waters or the 7mm TCU. I just want to make sure they go down with one shot now but it still is shot placement.

[429421Cowboy]

Here there is no restriction of any kind, no minimum requirement for power or anything of that sort, yet i haven't ran into anybody hunting with a .25 ACP yet! A few guys use a .22 now and then, but usually the caliber they choose has more than enough poop, its the guy behind the trigger that wounds things! I have told this story here before, but i had a friend a few years back that was injured badly and could not hold up to recoil from a hunting rifle, so he used a .22 magnum and a .17 to harvest two deer, each with a single shot, head and lungs, respectively. In that situation it was the guy behind the trigger that made it count, a nervous guy with buck fever can shoot a deer in the legs with a .22 as well as he can a .270!
Only thing i see here is they made it legal to use the .22 centerfires that are now being touted as deer guns with the new bullet designs. And again, in capable hands, they work fine, but i personally think a .243 is the min for a dedicated hunting rifle.
But i also think passing an accuracy test and proving competence with your weapon should come before a "power factor", if you hit em where it counts you should be able to pick whatever you want! Waksupi can probably chime in on this, but i have been told by my parents that back in the 80's when the state let people put in to shoot nusance bears, if you got drawn you had to show proficient marksmanship skills before they would take you to the bear, i am curious to know what happened the first few times that made them decide to do that!

[338RemUltraMag]

PA has the same regs for rifle, any centerfire caliber is a go.

[freebullet]

I would say not a good plan. If you were going to use a 25 I would say practice at fifteen foot firing at a4" circle. 15' being a long shot for a 25, shoot controlled pairs quickly. Probably 2 pairs rapidly would be a good plan. I took a friend & his son turkey hunting years ago, to get his sons first turkey. Our mission was to put his boy within 20yards of a turkey, we did. The hunt was fun & we were getting a big chuckle watching the kid carry his turkey out. Next thing we know a big buck jumps up from a thicket not 10' in front of us. He made so much noise and had a giant presence so close that I presented the only gun I had on me to the ready. It was a Sig p238 .380, that buck had an arrow sticking out of his shoulder. It was very deep, but had clearly been deflected by his beefy bones. It had kind of slid in length wise, I believe he was mortally wounded. That brute began taking steps right toward us, I fired a controlled pair into his vitals. The buck dropped. He was a fighter till the end. He took longer to expire than I like. So I personally would not want to actually hunt with tiny handgun if given options. A controlled pair to the vitals from a .380 works better than a misplaced arrow. We found that one shot went through his heart & exited, the second shot passed through both lungs & stopped in the hide on the other side. If I wouldn't have had that gun I believe my buddy and I would have had to try to take him down with our knives, he had his head lowered & was probably 8' away.

[madsenshooter]

A 25 would be about the right size for the KS deer I used to see around McConnell AFB. No, it wouldn't be, but the deer were very small compared to what I was used to seeing in Ohio.

[Quigley284]

Maybe but why would you want to? So many better choices.

[x101airborne]

I did always think that a Marlin semi auto converted to 25 acp would be a great squirrel rifle. Totally off subject, but since I am up.......

[1Shirt]

Practice, practice, practice, and shot placement, shot placement, shot placement etc.etc.etc. No winner in these arguements. For me, I sort of go with whoever came up with the 1000 fpe at 100 yds to be a good guide. Yep, know a lot of deer have been poached with 22LR's, probably even with 22Shorts. Don't make it right or logical.
1Shirt!

[Combat Diver]

When I lived/hunted in Kentucky they had the same "any centerfire rifle/pistol allowed" for deer hunting. Never felt comfortable hunting with my Baby Browninng in .25 ACP. Too many guns in the safe screaming at me to take them out :lol:. NC allows any caliber for hunting with only no full auto or suppressors allowed, so it is legal to hunt with a .22LR. I successfully used my M4ergy AR in 5.56mm on deer with a 20 rd mag in place (don't like the long length of a 30 rd mag for hunting game). Good to see Kanas giving responsiblliy back to its citizens.


CD

[DxieLandMan]

Technically, the 25 ACP is legal in Alabama too but I would recommend against it. We have to use centerfire, mushrooming ammunition.

[starmac]

I am not sure how or why folks have the idea that any restrictions are good. We as a whole should have enough sense to use a caliber that we can comfortably get the job done with, with out any help from lawyers that doesn't hunt anyway.

[nanuk]

in Sask, we can use any rifle in a centerfire cartridge, larger than .23 cal (now how many judges would understand what Caliber is? Heck, even shooters can't)

projectiles pretty much cannot be a FMJ or Non-expanding solid.

so, a 25ACP in a legal length rifle would be Legal for everything up to moose!

But although a 25ACP is legal for deer, a .223Remington with a quality BarnesX 60gr or so, is not!


it is Government Policy, it doesn't have to make sense!

[Beerd]

Here is the way the Montana regs read:

"Firearms
During the General Season:
• There is no rifle or handgun caliber limitation for the taking of big game animals.
• Muzzleloaders, shotguns, archery equipment, and crossbows are legal.
• The possession of firearms with silencers while afield is illegal."

Pretty simple.

It goes on to list half a page of regulations & definitions for archery equipment.
..

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

here they used to say X # of fps at the muzzle for pistols and a 6 inch or longer barrel and any 22 or larger center fire

now it is a pistol with a 5inch barrel measured form firing pin to muzzle or 22 or larger center fire



222 was a very popular deer round , still is for some

[runfiverun]

no silencers in Montana....wow.
they are legal for all game animals and seasons here.

[MT Gianni]

There was a bill that came up this session to allow silencers this year, Lamar. FWP came out against it as it might make enforcement difficult.

[Blammer]

set of dies for sale in swap and sell

[Reverend Al]

I did always think that a Marlin semi auto converted to 25 acp would be a great squirrel rifle. Totally off subject, but since I am up.......

Years ago there was the AP-74 ... an AR-15 clone made in Italy ... and it was offered factory stock in .32 ACP pistol chambering! I always wanted one of those (just for a fun "toy"), but never have seen one yet! ;-(

[Hamish]

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=66910

[richhodg66]

I knew there had been a move to allow .22 centerfires for a few years, I hadn't heard they had passed it.

I personally thought the old power restrictions weren't bad; .40 caliber and bigger for muzzle loaders, .23 and bigger for rifles and 40 lbs for bows. The handgun laws were kinda weird with that minimum cartridge length, but the .45 ACP was the only viable deer killing handgun cartridge it eliminated.

I'm sticking with .30 calibers for deer. I just can't see where using a .22 centerfire is a good thing.

[Marlin Junky]

(except that elk require a bullet larger than .25 inches in diameter a cartridge case length of 1.750 or longer)

If that's .25" bore diameter, then according to the KS Department of Wildlife, a 25-06 is not enough gun for elk? How big do the elk get in KS? :lol:

MJ

[sisterjim]

"a rifle with a calibre of not less than 6millimetres (or .240inches) and which is capable of delivering a projectile having a kinetic energy of 1350joules (or 996ft-lb) at 100metres (or 109.26yards) from the rifle."

I regularly spotlight wallaby with a pal. He takes the long shots with factory ammo in Ruger 204 and I get 'em close in with Savage 24V; BB's or 115gr cast HP by Erik see my post molds,maintainance ,design. The 250 yard shots cause significant damage and we often ponder the effect of this tiny modern bullet on fallow deer.

[nanuk]

years ago, a CO in Manitoba told me, if legal, he'd hunt deer and caribou with a 17Rem. Moose, he said nothing slower than the 22-250, but within the .22caliber...

[fryboy]

If that's .25" bore diameter, then according to the KS Department of Wildlife, a 25-06 is not enough gun for elk? How big do the elk get in KS? :lol:

MJ

good question ...what i can tell you that they are hard to find and perhaps even harder to get a permit for ...leaving my thoughts as to why they wrote the old regs as they did ... i dont know .... [shrugz] but allow me to ponder in their eyes if indeed .257 is bigger than .250 ....... personally i've never cared too much for the quarter bore but oddly enough love the two calibers bracketed by it ( .243 and .264 ) i seen a mule deer ( umm smaller than a elk assuredly ) soak up several shots from a close range 25-06 before thankfully expiring ( perhaps even with relief on it's part after all i'm sure being wounded to death wasnt any fun ) i dont blame the caliber per say but the shooter and a poor shooter will never make up for shot placement with sheer power ( after all 4 or 5 fast misses is still a miss )

[richhodg66]

The Elk in Kansas are basically on Fort Riley. The yreintroduced them to Kansas and we see them on post fairly commonly. I know a few people who've drawn tags and the success rate is high for those who do.

Some do get off post and there is public hunting land adjacent to Milford lake where I have seen them. As far as I can tell, they look like elk I've seen elsewhere; just as big but no bigger.

[pls1911]

If anyone , has ever fired a "normal" average .25 ACP at more than bedroom distance and hit in the same county, they're better markmen than I am.
At critter distances, game is pretty safe from me and that round.
On the other hand, a Ruger Mark 1 .22 pistol is deadly accurate, and will take 200 pound critters cleanly with proper shot placement.

[Marvin S]

I've always found the little 25 pocket pistols be way more accurate than they should be, and far more reliable than one in 22 LR. I always wanted a little bolt rifle chambered in 25 ACP for them monster Kansas cotton tail rabbits and such.

[dougader]

In Oregon you can use a .22 caliber centerfire rifle or handgun for deer, but you have to move up to .25 caliber centerfire for elk; no case length requirement here. I pointed this out to ODFW, but they have never changed it. I guess they don't have a problem with people wanting to hunt elk with a Beretta 950BS in 25 auto.

[GeezerinNH]

NH has no 22 rimfires as the minimum.

They also have for coons after dark 22LR as the max, but talking with our CO the 17 HMR is fine, same for coyotes after dark in season with a night permit. Talk about behind the times!!!!

[WRideout]

PA has the same regs for rifle, any centerfire caliber is a go.

But no autoloaders, except shotguns which apparently aren't evil. I can use my bolt action Rem in .223 for deer.

Wayne

[GeezerinNH]

There was a bill that came up this session to allow silencers this year, Lamar. FWP came out against it as it might make enforcement difficult.

In that case longbows, recureve bows, compound bows, and cross bows should be illegal.

Fighting the same fight in NH right now, bowhunters hate us and the suck.

[RoyEllis]

Well, having been shot 3x with a 25acp from about 20ft, I'd say they aren't much better than a cap gun. Didn't even have to dig 2 bullets out...1st round hit my rt forearm & skidded along the bone for about 7", 2nd round hit far left chest cutting a gouge 3" long as it ricocheted off a rib, 3rd round hit right at hairline & center of my forehead cutting a gash 6" long as it bounced off skull plate. Quit my bouncer job a few weeks after that (got stabbed & wound up in hospital that time).
Sometimes I'm amazed I survived the stupidity of my youth.:coffee:

[Marvin S]

Well, having been shot 3x with a 25acp from about 20ft, I'd say they aren't much better than a cap gun. Didn't even have to dig 2 bullets out...1st round hit my rt forearm & skidded along the bone for about 7", 2nd round hit far left chest cutting a gouge 3" long as it ricocheted off a rib, 3rd round hit right at hairline & center of my forehead cutting a gash 6" long as it bounced off skull plate. Quit my bouncer job a few weeks after that (got stabbed & wound up in hospital that time).
Sometimes I'm amazed I survived the stupidity of my youth.:coffee:
Id say lucky indeed. I would have give it up also.

[lylejb]

In Oregon you can use a .22 caliber centerfire rifle or handgun for deer, but you have to move up to .25 caliber centerfire for elk; no case length requirement here. I pointed this out to ODFW, but they have never changed it. I guess they don't have a problem with people wanting to hunt elk with a Beretta 950BS in 25 auto.

This year in Oregon (just looked) it's 22 CF or larger for deer, black bear, and cougar. It's .24 CF for elk, sheep, and goats.

Somehow, I still don't feel inclined to go after bear with a mouse gun.

[vincewarde]

A bit off topic - but there are deer and than there are deer. Here in Northern California, the deer that show up in my backyard seldom run over 100lbs - some of the big bucks might weigh 125lbs - than there are Whitetails that I understand can go 250-300lbs. With a good bullet, I would have no problem shooting one of our little Blacktails with a .223 - but I would definitely want something bigger for Whitetails!

As for a .25 ACP, no way I would even try......

[Cheap Trick]

In Arizona we have been able to hunt big game with any centerfire rifle or handguns forever (as far as I know). People from states that tightly control their residents will always hyperventilate at hearing this. We are used to this liberty and think nothing of it. EVERYBODY that I am aware of use deer guns that are deer guns. Yes, you could use a 25acp but why would you. More government regulations are not the answer. Our state trusts us.

[nanuk]

... More government regulations are not the answer. Our state trusts us.

But your President does NOT!

[Cheap Trick]

My President?
Whats Jeff Davis have to do with this?

[MarkP]

In Neb -- rifles must have 900 ft-lbs @ 100 yds, Handgun 450 ft-lbs @ 50 yds. Not sure but I think when the rule was written at 900 ft-lbs, it was written to eliminate the 222 Rem.

[nanuk]

makes a lot of sense to have handguns less powerful.... because they are so much more accurate and easier hit with I guess!


doesn't have to make sense, it is POLICY

[mikeym1a]

Lately, I've look high and low for an old worn-out .22 to re-barrel to .25acp. The .22 & the .25 are on the same power levels in the same guns, but I've never heard of anyone making a rifle in .25acp. I think an old AR-7 would be prime for the conversion. I just need to find one for real cheap. Why??? '...just because...'. [smilie=s:

[mikeym1a]

Technically, the 25 ACP is legal in Alabama too but I would recommend against it. We have to use centerfire, mushrooming ammunition.
Believe it or not, you can get .25acp GoldDot ammo, when they have ammo, of course.....:-)

[mikeym1a]

Here is the way the Montana regs read:

"Firearms
During the General Season:
• There is no rifle or handgun caliber limitation for the taking of big game animals.
• Muzzleloaders, shotguns, archery equipment, and crossbows are legal.
• The possession of firearms with silencers while afield is illegal."

Pretty simple.

It goes on to list half a page of regulations & definitions for archery equipment.
..

Why no 'silencers'??

[mikeym1a]

My President?
Whats Jeff Davis have to do with this?

:bigsmyl2:

[Chev. William]

After reading the full Thread to this point I believe several Poster are making a rash assumption in that they appear to be judging the .25ACP cartridge upon the general data for a 2 inch or 2.5 inch barrel Semi-Automatic Pistol.

Also, it seems that most posts ignore the possibility of a hunter stalking the intended prey to within useful range of a factory loaded .25ACP, even though Archery Hunters need to do that in any successful hunt. Would not the same skills serve the .25ACP armed hunter?
According to someone who has slugged the barrels of several such pistols and found the two major suppliers to have barrels that measure .255 to .256 Groove diameter, which is over the SAMMI Standards of .250" -0.0+/+.004", he surmised that the manufacturers both went that large to vent pressure around the bullets quickly. The Powder used in the .25ACP commercial Loadings all has peak pressure occurring while the bullet is still in the cartridge.

The use of a .25ACP in a Locked Breech Long barreled firearm was documented on a Web site "Ballistics By The Inch" and indicates that commercial loads gain speed, and muzzle energy as barrel length is extended up to at least 16" or 17".

Now, given a barrel of say 21" to 24" and hand loaded with either a greater charge or one of slower powder, in a Locked Breech Rifle and possibly with a hard cast Lead bullet with a round flat nose, I believe the "usefulness" of this cartridge would be improved.

There is the 'other' mentioned .250" cartridge, the .25 Stevens Long, It lends itself to development as a Center Fire Cartridge, rather than Rim Fire, by reforming and trimming .22 Hornet cases to fit it's chamber in a center fire action. Plus the bullet would be heavier than the typical .25ACP bullets. Also the .25 Stevens Long was reported, back in the 1890s when loaded with Black Powder, to be accurate for Off Hand Shooting at 200 Yards. Modern Smokeless Powder loads would push the same bullet to much faster velocity and improve the accuracy some simply by reducing the 'high trajectory' reported at the original loadings 1180fps speed.

Then there are the possible 'wildcat' lengths that are available out of reformed .22 Hornet brass, up to about 1.360" case length form my experience in reforming them.

A 1.250" case length, loaded with a suitable charge of Either '2400 or H110 in a strong, locked Breech rifle to 40,000psi would give some interesting performance out of a Straight walled .276" Diameter cartridge case.

Something I am planning to try in a future experiment, just to see what it would do.

As for a .25ACP rifle, I have started to accumulate parts to assemble a Marlin model 56 'Levermatic' clip magazine fed rifle in .25ACP as the cartridge overall length is compatible with the original rifle action and later variant, the Model 62 was chambered for the .30 Carbine Round, which is both larger in diameter and was factory loaded to 40,000psi.
A Lothar Walther .25ACP type barrel blank measuring 23.4 inches long and slugging .242" Bore and .249 Groove Diameters has been obtained (from LW 'stock items' list about a year ago) for this project, a spare bolt has been modified for the cartridge head dimensions so next is to work on a Clip to fit both the action and the cartridge.

Some things to think about in this caliber.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[AABEN]

Here in IN we have a case length the 357 is the shorts case that we can use. I like my Dan Wesson 375 for hand gun hunting. I also like my Marlin 12 gage rifled gun. I also like my Savage muzzle loader with a sabot SWC 44 cal 240 to 250 with IMR 4227 my Ruger muzzle loader has killed the most deer with Pyrodex pistol powder 80 gr with 250 gr 44 cal They all have killed deer.

[JakeBlanton]

.25ACP for deer? I guess you need to open it's mouth and while holding the handgun in your hand, reach down the deer's throat until you have the barrel nearly touching the heart and then fire it.