30-30 boolits driving me crazy.

[beefyz]

Hi all. Please for some help. Got a new'94 winny made in '69,30-30, w/26” barrel. Decided I wanted to shoot only lead out of it, and light loads at that. Have successfully reloaded lead in rifles .357 & 32-20; have found the sweet spots for both. This 30-30 is driving me crazy. After the usual research came up with the following loads to test. Using the Missouri bullet 135 gr @ .309 PB rnfp bhn18, all shot from 50 yds
Unique @ 7.5 & 8 gr was very good . Low, all shot low here with factory sights at max, but at least a 2-3” grps.
H4895 @ 21gr, as recommended from Hodgdon, as above.
AA 5744 @ 16 was also good, slightly more open grp.
2400 @ 16 lousy, keyholed all over the target.
Then switched over to Missouri 165gr @.309 PB rnfp bhn 18.
H4895 @ 20gr Hodgdon recommendation was good.
Unique @ 8 good. These 2 gave me the same 2-3” grps.
Imr 4227 @ 16.5 & 17 no pattern or grp.
Checked the barrel and I’m almost willing to swear that I had no leading but it was filthy; took over a dozen patches to clean it out.
Dropped the 2400 & 4227, got cocky, and made up a batch of those that worked and even added Tail Boss @ 8gr. Next outing , TOTALLY different results. Everything was all over the target ( 8” low @ 6oclock, to 5” wide @3oclock, to 4” wide at 9oclock etc etc. I grouped 3 touching with the TB 6” low at 6, then threw 2 flyers. Even dropped back to 25 yds and still couldn’t grp anything. AT 25 YARDS !!!!!
Again I believe no leading, barrel filthy as all hell. Figured maybe a bad day, was having alot of trouble with the open sights. Reloaded a few more to try again. This time I coated a few of the 135s with lee alox and using unique @8. Best grp I have ever shot with this gun; 1-2” grps @ 4oclock, 2” off bull. It was kind of hard to lever a few in and when I ejected a few I found rifling marks just above the crimp. A little too much alox ? TB @ 8.5 wasn’t that far off, grping 7 in a 2-3” grp 4 oclock but 6’’ off bull; but had 3 off target. Red Dot @ 8 & H 4895 @ 21all bullets w/o alox were all over the target.
I’m at a loss. Too many conflicting results. Even with some of the decent grps, there were always 2-3 flyers. These are supposed to be “light” loads and maybe that’s part of the problem. Maybe to light, and too inconsistent. But, i'm trying not to exceed the roughly 1700-1800 fps that i've been told these bullets should stay at. What happens if you shoot a harder bullet at a slower velocity ? I never had the bore slugged. I do have some 150s in .310 coming as I’ve read some of the older winnys liked ‘310 better. Could i have one of those overbored winnys ?
I still swear I’m not leading, but the barrel always ends up filthy as hell. I got the impression it shot better with the alox coated bullets with the Unique, but with the alox bullets and H4895 they were as bad as the rest, keyholed all over the target.. The open buckhorn on this one and my eyes also leaves a lot to be desired . EVERYTHING shoots LOW 6-8” off bull @ 4-5 oclock, at full elevation. Considering getting the Williams peep set-up. Don’t want to use checked bullets either as I will never get into casting, have a steady supply here, and some of the commercial checked cost as much or even more than the jacketed. And i want to perfect these "light" loads. As stated by someone, they are a "hoot" to shoot. When you can find one that works i guess.
ANY suggestions here; anybody see anything that I’m missing? I almost ready to go back to jacketed . All comments appreciated.

[Char-Gar]

You are trying to push plain based bullets beyond their limits and calling them "light loads". You need gas check bullets at most of the loading you have tried. This is basic stuff, but you have not got the word I suppose.

Lubricated cast bullet do leave bore somewhat dirty with trash. That is just the way of it. Run a wet patch or two with a good solvent down your barrel and follow that with a dry one or two and there will be no more "filthy barrel" issues, at least until you shoot again.

Your rifle does not have a large bore. The barrel throat is the critical dimension for cast bullets and every Winchester 94 in 30-30 regardless of vintage will deliver it's best performance with bullets of .310 - .311.

I will not go into another lecture on the pit falls of buying machine cast, hard as nails, lousy lube commercial cast bullets again. I have done that enough for one life time. You can buy good cast bullets, but they will be hand cast, of the proper temper and have a good bullet lube and be more costly.

Best of luck...

[GabbyM]

Probably do have some leading. Try some 0000 steel wool wrapped around an old brush with your favorite cleaner to see what comes out.

Only plain base bullet I’ve shot in 30-30 is my Saeco 140gr FN. 7 ½ grains of Unique is all it can stand. 8.0gr was to much.

Don’t know why but I can run plain base hand gun boolits much faster than I’ve ever had success with fast 30 caliber rifle bullets in plain base. Maybe it’s the larger caliber in my hand guns? Have cast up some .375” plain based boolits for others that were run very excellently at over 1,700 fps from a 38-55 rifle.

If you’re just shooting paper. Place an aiming dot at the top of your target then let the shots drop into a group below that. You'll be able to see those fat thirties flying to target over 7 1/2 grains of Unique.

[sthwestvictoria]

ANY suggestions here; anybody see anything that I’m missing? I almost ready to go back to jacketed . All comments appreciated.

I would second Char-Gar that you are trying for too much velocity from those commercial, non-GC bullets.

When everything is going awry then you need to go back to basics - does the rifle shoot with factory loads or jacketed handloads? This rules out mechanical things with the rifle - crown damage, poor rifling, magazine tightness problems.
Can someone else shoot the rifle - rules you out of the equation
How does it shoot at 25metres - helps with sighting if using iron sights. For shooting groups another member on here put me onto using inverted triangles. This seems a lot easier for me than aiming at centre or base of circles:
65691
The triangle is actually bright red, the scan is just in Black and White.

Save all your targets and record details to know what you have tried and what you have not. I found this really helped me organise my thoughts, all targets get hole punched and go into a ring file, this goes to the range as well so I know what elevation or windage works for which load.

It does not sound like leading. Fortunately I have not seen much but the bits I have seen looked like grey, rough streaks on the rifling, seen best with a torch near the muzzle in my example. You may also see lead granules on cleaning patches. The black soot that removes easily sounds like normal lube remnants.

Importantnly - keep going! It took me about 10 months of fiddling to get the above group!

[RickinTN]

With cast you not only have to watch velocity, but you have to watch pressure as well. You could be a what you consider low velocity but be too high in pressure for your bullets. Too low pressure with a hard bullet works against you. The Red Dot load you mention is a mild load velocity wise but produces pressures in the same area that a full-house jacketed load would. Look at the bottom of any page on this forum for "LASC" and click on the link. Studies and information there on BHN vs pressure and excellent information.
Before I started casting I bought some of the Lazer cast bullets for gas checks and installed my own gas checks. I got pretty good accuracy with some loads with those bullets.
I agree as above in that I would use a .310" bullet and .311 if my rifle throat would accept it. I have a 70's model 94 that will take .310 but not .311. All of my Marlins will take .311 and probably bigger.
Good Luck,
Rick

[kartooo]

it's been yrs since i loaded for my 30 30 lever gun but i agree with the previous posters GAS CHECKS !!!
i never had a problem and was always amazed at the tight groups i got out of a lever gun with cast boolits i made from water dropped wheelweights GAS CHECKED. i always used gas checks with 30 30 and hot .357 mags when using cast. you are hitting the base of that lead boolit with a blow torch, it needs some protection !!! i had one them lyman peep sights mounted on it too.

[beefyz]

An update to my post of 3/28. Had another go of it with way much better results, after following your advice.

“You are trying to push plain based bullets beyond their limits and calling them "light loads". You need gas check bullets at most of the loading you have tried. This is basic stuff, but you have not got the word I suppose.”

“you are trying for too much velocity from those commercial, non-GC bullets.”

OK, I know its basic stuff and I think I got most of “the word”. That being said, I quickly learned how to use lead in the 32-20 & .357 rifles. Like Poster GabbyM said “Don’t know why but I can run plain base hand gun boolits much faster than I’ve ever had success with fast 30 caliber rifle bullets in plain base”. I just assumed ( ***-sumed) I was on the same track with the 30-30. I just want to say that the loads I originally tested were just not made up by me. I did get them from Hodgdons, Alliant, & Lymans. They were all given to me as “light’ loads; THEIR terminology for these loads, not mine. Additionally, consultation from Missouri Bullet on their 135gr RNFP-PB, assured me that I was good to go with that bullet “up to 1,800fps”.
I kept all my original loads to appx. 1500/1700 the first time around. Then dropped that to appx 1400 the second outing, without any luck. I asked for your help and you gave it above. Went back to some very old manuals & utilized some new data from Load Data, which I subscribe to. Tried some loads today, "Cowboy loads", that kept me around 1100/1200 fps. Success; Unique @ 7 w/1-2” grps, 4756@ 7 w/2-3”grps, 5744 @12 w/2-3”grps, 2400@ 7 w/1-2”grps, & imr4227 @10.5 w/2-3” grps, all w/open sight @ 50 yds. Can I still “tweak” these, probably. Can’t change my bad eyes.

“You may also see lead granules on cleaning patches.”

I guess I didn’t recognize this for what it was. Originally it took over a dozen patches to clean out the rifle after 60 rds. Today. it took 4, and the 4th was used to just oil the barrel a bit.

I guess there is still much to be learned with this lead business. Tried a search on this & couldn’t find a definitive answer.
“Before I started casting I bought some of the Lazer cast bullets for gas checks and installed my own gas checks. I got pretty good accuracy with some loads with those bullets.”
Although I have stated that I’d rather shoot PB boolits vs checked due to the cost and I don’t mind sacrificing the velocity to do so, is it possible as stated above, to (routinely) install GCs aftermarket?

Again, thanks to all for time and consideration.
z

[RickinTN]

I bought the Lazer cast bullets which have a gas check shank, but they are delivered without the gas check. I purchased a Lee push through .311 sizer (about $17 from Midsouth) and Hornady gas checks. I have since purchased gas checks from "Blammer" on this sight for somewhat less money. It's a simple matter of attaching the gas check by hand and pushing it through the sizer. The Lee sizer will "crimp" the gas check in place. It's pretty simple actually. Lee only makes their sizers in .309 and .311 (why no .310 I don't know, as it would be a very useful size). You'll probably want the .311 so that you won't size the bullet during this operation.
If you would like a sample of these bullets with checks installed to try send me your mailing address by PM and I'll send a sample out to you to try as I think I have some left.
I think you'll find much better results.
Good Luck,
Rick

[TCLouis]

I'm thinking boolits at 0.310 - 0.311"

[Char-Gar]

beefyz... You need more than data. You need to understand the process of cast bullet loading and how they work and don't work. The best money you will spend is on a copy of Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Read it through and through and then read it again.

Data without the underlying understanding of how to use it, is like trying to run before you can walk.

I would caution you not to put to much dependence on the Internet and boards like this. What you get here will not substitute for knowledge you have gained yourself. Depending on the Internet, also put you in a position where you get input from folks who might be clueless themselves. This is a common event around these parts.

Just some words for you to consider...Charles

[MT Gianni]

What diameter did your bbl slug?

[btroj]

I can find nothing wrong with the guidance from Char-gar.

Stop, read, learn. Think it thru.

I would prefer a .310 or .311 bullet. I like 16 gr of 2400 for my 30-30 but I shoot a .311 bullet with a gas check.
Non checked bullets in a 30-30 I would keep under 1500, probably more in the 1300 range.

Get the proper bullets, in the proper size, and satisfaction will be easier to come by.

[beefyz]

Thanks again guys. I've got the manuals, had to teach myself reloading (w/jacketed), on my own with very little help available. All your comments will be considered. Some PMs have been sent.

[popper]

67005 I think it is size and alloy that is the problem. This is from a 20" 1:10 MG, 180 gr FB RD @ .311; vertical stringing believed to be a lack of filler, wind at my back & any other excuse I can give. It's not your light weight 135 gr but not a wimpy load either. POA was top & bottom of diamond. 150 corelok/ 4895 had same POI @ 50 so I imagine fps is up there. 15 & GC had same group & POI.
I did find the hornady half jacket 100 gr under ~ 10 unique were fun to shoot and had same accuracy as you're getting @ 50(inch or so). ~$15/100 last year. No recoil so not a problem in a tube mag.

[FergusonTO35]

Ditto everything that has been said, also I think you really should use a rifle powder. It will burn cleaner and the pressure will peak a little slower which is what you need is such a long barrel. I recommend Hodgdon or IMR 4895. These twin powders are very cast friendly and work great in reduced loads.

[x101airborne]

Try 25 grains of Win 748 and work up. That is one fine medium burn powder for cast rifle.

[OverMax]

In a non gas checked bullet of the same weight and caliber. Why is there a difference in Max speeds between revolver and rifle to help eliminate leading?

[GabbyM]

In a non gas checked bullet of the same weight and caliber. Why is there a difference in Max speeds between revolver and rifle to help eliminate leading?

Don't have anything to back this up except a small bit of experience. It's caliber. mass of the bullet. Sectional density and strengths in other ways making the larger booolit stronger. 38 caliber rifles can drive plain based boolits pretty fast. May be the slower twist of a 38-55 rifle. Whatever it is it seams pretty consistent. Likewise gas check boolits in smaller than 30 caliber are hard to get running very fast. 270 and 6mm are ones I've tried. But then you get to 22 caliber or 6mm with slow twist and you can easily get 2,200 fps. Remove gas check from a 22 caliber boolit and you are stuck at 22 rim-fire velocity. I don't really know but if you had a Hornet with 16 twist barrel maybe you could get 22 mag RF velocity from a plain base. But if you think about it. 22 mag RF uses jacketed 22 Hornet bullets. What I know is my 223 Rem shoots great with gas check boolits. Then my 30-06 and 30-30 shoot great with cast. My 243 AI and 270 Win shoot great as long as I run them slow. 1850 fps give or take. Which isn't that bad. my 270 with 122gr boolits is minute of squirrel accurate to 100 yards. Just drop a little Unique in those big cases and plink away. But my 30 caliber rifles can rock and roll with big heavy cast boolits. Same nut on the stick and booits coming from the same pot. Most other boolit shooters have similar results. My education stopped two years into college. Never was a physics intellectual. I am educated enough to know one thing for certain. We have not found the mathematical rules to define why some calibers shoot cast better than others. We have a couple of formulas but they are based on experience reversed into an equation. Far cry form laws of physics. But we know what works and what does not. AKA the envelope.

Envelope of a 30 caliber plain base cast boolit from a 1-10" twist bares tops out at around 1250 fps.
Given my Win 94 30-30 doesn't weigh much more than any given 22 rimfire. My 140 grain flat point Saeco at 1250 fps will seriously leave any 22 rimfire in the dust for shooting back yard critters like coons and opossum. you're actually close to 357 magnum power level and way past 38 special. You'll knock a coon right off the branch with that load. Wild dogs yotes or whatever inside 100 yards and you can nail them. with plain based 30 calibers if you compare them to rimfire 22's they look like and are big dogs. Likewise I can use my ten pound prarrie dog rifle with 6x24X scope that coast about what the gun cost. load it with my gas checked cast boolits over something like 14.5 grains of 4198. Then shoot 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards instead of the 3/8" groups it will do with $18 per 100 box of Sierra Blitz-Kings. My cast boolits shoot better than cheep J bullets. 100 yards around the farm lot or in the woods is a very long ways out. Invariably get a building or tree. Rounds will stretch out to 200 yards but I've never tried it but on paper. It sure isn't any 22 rim-fire. My Lyman boolit is 60 grains for one thing. 20 grains over , or 50%, of the 40gr 22 rf. Then add 1,000 fps. Easily three times the range. Plus I get to use my quite expensive piece of optic sight. Plain base 22's are sold for $4 a hundred as 22 rim fires. You can beat that a little with a heavier PB boolit but the 30 caliber plain base is in another power level. The single ground hog I shot back in my youth with a 22 mag rf. Had to be hit three times at 110 yards to keep it from crawling back down it's hole. I've not tested it but am confident one round of my cast boolit 223 rem would DRT any ground hog. My Win 94 is currently shooting a 150 grain BHN#9 boolit over 26gr Rx7 for over 2,000 fps. That round would about cut a ground hog in half. Sans a little hides left to tie things together. Not seen a ricochet yet. Which is why I like the soft boolit. They will bounce but I have a mile out back and they should stay into that section.

[HangFireW8]

Lots of good advice here, I just want to make one small point.

It is quite possible to load up cast boolits, not lead the bore, and still have terrible accuracy. A clean bore is a less of a goal and more of a side effect.

My old NRA cast book notes that with slow powders and gas checks (I might add reasonably good fit), leading is very unlikely. I've found that to be true. I've found that fact has little to do with accuracy. I've loaded many a load of 30-30 and 30-06 cast in the 2200-2300 fps range that left a beautiful clean bore and had miserable accuracy. The 30-30 did better than the '06 in that regard - 8MOA versus 16MOA.

I've fallen back and punted... now I am working up slowly through the velocity range.