Salt bath nitriding a frizzen

[Nobade]

Also known as Melonite. Anybody ever try this? The new TC frizzens are black and I suspect this is what they are doing to them. Much cheaper than case hardening. I occasionally send rifle barrels out to have it done to them and wondered if it would work on frizzens.

-Nobade

[rjathon]

Where do you send your barrels and how much does it cost? Does it change the temper of the steel? Will it work with center fire barrels?

Thanks

[Lead Fred]

If you build a quality ML out of good parts, you will never go back to those cheap, third world build production guns.

No matter what you do, you will still have a sows ear when your done.

[Nobade]

Where do you send your barrels and how much does it cost? Does it change the temper of the steel? Will it work with center fire barrels?

Thanks

http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html

We use it on centerfire barrels to extend the lifespan when the are chambered for things like 6mm-300WSM and others that burn out barrels quickly. You can go from 400 shots to 2000 shots by having this done to your barrel before you fire it. I haven't tried it, but they tell me if you do a muzzleloader barrel you pretty much don't ever have to worry about rust again. Doesn't look too great for traditional guns though, it is a very black color. It ought to work well for internal lock parts to make them faster and wear resistant - it does wonders to the internals of an M1 or M14.

And Lead Fred, I hear what you are saying and agree completely. But for people who already own cheap third world junk and can't afford a domestically made good quality gun, it may be a possibility to allow them to use what they have until such time they can afford to step up to the real thing.

-Nobade

[Lead Fred]

The trick is to get the flatlanders to read these articles, and learn from our mistakes.
Many decades ago, I had a production gun. Made it as better as I could.
My EX got it as part of the seperation.

Then I bought each part over 10 months. When I had all the parts, I built the flinter thats in the safe now.

My harsh words are to encourge those to bypass the production gun phase.

The wait is worth it

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Old Indian proverb "Any bow is better than no bow".
Mike in Peru

[Lead Fred]

Mike, if your bow does not bend, you have a damn stick.

As far as Flinters goes, cheap is NOT good

[Fly]

Noblade here is the deal.The metal on them is high carbon steel.It can be heated to cherry red
& quenched in oil.That brings the carbon to the top.If you use water salt bath on very high carbon
steel they become brittle.

TO hard is not good.

Fly

[Nobade]

No, totally different process. I am not sure how they do it, but it involves molten salt of some sort. Makes all the parts flat black and harder than anything. I tried recrowning a S&W M&P auto pistol barrel that had it done to it, and even carbide tooling wouldn't touch it. Melonite is far harder than any normal hardened steel I have ever encountered. Well, maybe ball bearings but not much else. But it is a surface conversion like case hardening. The center stays normal so parts aren't brittle.

I got a BAT Machine action in today to fit a barrel to. All Melonited, that thing is just an impressive piece of work. Can't scratch it with anything I have, it sure is a good thing they make them right from the beginning!

Oh, Suzi at The Gunworks says they have those TC parts so I am going to get them and see for myself.

-Nobade

[Boogieman]

Flint locks spark by having the flint cut small particles of steel of the frizzen if it's too hard it won't spark.

[missionary5155]

Flint locks spark by having the flint cut small particles of steel of the frizzen if it's too hard it won't spark.

Good morning
I can attest to this. Had a frizzen that was treated I think with Kasenite numerous times. Whatever the cause, good English flints would slide right off it.
It is work but I am rather found of "shoeing" a worn frizzen. Last one I did ths past summer took 3 hours but sparks like a Zippo. If I would have had a thinner file to work with it would have been quicker. Yards sales this past summer in east ILL. lacked alot of the average items I am accostomed to find.
Mike in Peru

[Fly]

Flint locks spark by having the flint cut small particles of steel of the frizzen if it's too hard it won't spark.

Yes I was thinking that also.
Fly

[Nobade]

Well, I got the new TC parts from The Gunworks and installed them yesterday. At first I was worried - the cut agate flint I had would slide off and not spark. Then I put in a hand knapped English flint and what a difference! Loads of sparks that danced around in the pan. That's what I wanted to see - this thing is going to fire now! The new frizzen is about the same shape as the old one, just black and hard. But the new cock is way different. Quite a bit taller, it comes down with a nice slicing motion instead of bashing the rock into the bottom of the frizzen. They aren't as nice looking, but sure do work better.

Another question, the new cock is loose on the tumbler. Anybody have a favorite way to tighten it? I thought about upsetting metal from behind into the hole but it's too hard. I have seen loads of ways to do this but not sure what the best way is.

-Nobade

[FL-Flinter]

The flint & frizzen hardness must be compatible. If the flint is too hard for the frizzen, the frizzen will see excessive wear or damage. If the frizzen is too hard for the flint it won't produce many/any sparks. Ideal hardness range for knapped natural flints is 50-55 Rc. Frizzens used with some cut agate can be down to mid-40's Rc and still produce good spark. I've seen some cut agate flints that were hard as the dickens and chewed the snot out of production gun frizzens and knapped natural flints that were too soft to make good spark. First thing is to make sure the geometry is correct then try several different flints as a manner of methodical troubleshooting.

Nobade, The optimum fix would be to replace the tumbler with one that's properly fitted to the cock but the appropriate thickness steel/stainless shim stock allows for adjustment without making a permanent modification.
Mark

[Nobade]

I ended up zapping the cock with the wire feed welder and filing to the right size. Works slick now!

[Fly]

I ended up zapping the cock with the wire feed welder and filing to the right size. Works slick now!

Black powder guy's always figure away.Thats what makes us differant from alot of black gun shooter, (wink).

Fly

[KCSO]

Depends on the metal the frizzen is made from. The old Jukar and Jap guns had such soft metal in them that they would never harden up right. Te biggest rick to hardening metal is to know what you have to start with.

As to factory vrs custom there are a few good factory guns made but they are starting to cost as much as the parts for a good custom gun. I use to recommend the Lyman GPR to folks starting out. T/C makes a good percussion gun and the flinters will work within their limitations. Anything marked JUKAR is worse than no gun at all.