SA or DAO for personal defense??

[handyman77]

I just recently switched to DAO pistol as a carry gun. I was wondering what others thoughts were on the topic.

[gunfan]

They work well and have the added safety factor of a "revolveresque" trigger pull. When it comes to smaller bore pistols, I like using a single action pistol.

Scott

[km101]

I carry both a 1911 ultra compact which is SA, and a J frame S&W double action revolver. It's really a matter of what YOU like and are willing to practice and become proficient with. Either will serve you well if you practice with it and become comfortable with it. Whatever you carry, you should practice enough that the operation and reloading of it become instinctive.

Basically it is what ever works for you. It's your life after all.

[fouronesix]

No brainer for me- DA semi-auto or revolver without safety levers or gadgets.

[Case Stuffer]

Carried a SA Colt or AMT Hardballer .45 ACP for 45 years and just recently changed over to a SA XP 9mm Subcompact which is in reality both a DA and a SA.

[tacklebury]

Personally, I like to be able to use SA for an aimed first shot when available. They say make the first shot count and nothing makes it count more for me than taking the 1/10th of a second it takes to square the peg in the notch... ;)

[handyman77]

very interesting thoughts

[rintinglen]

I am no fan of short stoke Single Action Pistols for self defence purposes. They go bang too easily.
A friend of mine was crippled when the 1911 he was trying to re-holster discharged as he was grabbing a car thief, prepatory to taking him in custody. Later investigation revealed that the paddle of the thumb break likely pushed the extended safety off, while the strap entered the trigger guard; when he shoved on the grip to force the gun into the holster, the grip safety was deactivated and the gun discharged, firing a Speer 200 grain Hollow point into his right butt cheek, and dropping him where he stood. All automatics were ordered removed from duty, revolvers only were authorised for carry. It was seven or eight years, 1992 IIRC, before that order was rescinded, and then only double action pistols were approved for carry.
YMMV, and I recognise that the best gun to have is the one you are most familiar with, but a 4 lb trigger that fires when it moves less than an 1/8th of an inch is an AD looking for a place to happen. I much prefer a longer, heavier trigger pull. I like my guns round, but A Glock or a traditional da-sa pistol makes sense. When you consider the gun as a threat management tool, as opposed to simply a bullet launcher, you understand why I consider a longer, heavier pull desireable.

[bobthenailer]

After carring various size 1911 handguns for CCW for the past 40 years , a few years ago i switched to Kahrs DA stricker fired handguns , all 3 a PM9,TP45 and CW45 have excellent 5 lb DA trigger pulls and no safetys to worry about and are very accurate and reliable .Im very impressed with there product.

[FergusonTO35]

I prefer a light DA or striker fired gun myself. My Ruger SR9c is my usual carry and soon it will be joined by a Kahr CW9. My Kel-Tec P32 sees alot of duty in the summer when anything larger just doesn't work.

[Rodfac]

RintinGlen, very well put, your argument for a DA only for police work....and for civilian use as well, as we can be attacked at arm's length. The longer pull on a good DA trigger offers better safety to the user. I've copied your post to my file of, "if you're going to carry, here's some prescient advise on gun choice from a guy who knows". My brother in law, recently retired after 30+ years of Border Patrol service, and as a detective in a fairly large Texas border city, had the same thoughts. He taught at the Federal Law Enforcement Training facility on the Georgia coast and had a lot of experience with a variety of duty weapons: Sig's, Glock's, S&W's...asked which he preferred, he said after 500-600 rounds of training, they were about equal...pushed on the subject, he liked the Sig for shooting and the Glock for carry because of the weight difference. Best Regards, and thanks for your post. Rod

[John in WI]

My HD weapon and the one that gets the most range time is a retired S and W .38. It's a retired police revolver with a bobbed hammer. I bought it mainly because I got a good deal on it. But as someone stated, the trigger is heavy enough that you aren't going to fire out of nervousness by accident (which I'm sure is why the original PD had the hammer bobbed). It took a little bit to learn how to handle the heavier trigger (vs. my CZ-82), but after a couple hundred rounds I got used to it just fine. I'm not sure if I would choose a bobbed hammer, but I don't really consider it a handicap either.

[handyman77]

Rintinglen---you have read my mind---thanx for the confirmation---HM77

[badboyparamedic]

1911 most of the time, but I do carry a DAO once in awhile. Both have there place as long as you are comfortable with what you carry.

[tacklebury]

if you are carrying a single action, it should be cocked and locked. Then there would have been no pre-mature discharge as the safety would have been on until the target is acquired. Failure to use the safety supplied is user error, not the fault of a firearm, imo. Just my 2cp, but too many people push firearm errors onto the design instead of the user. If I decide I have time to use a revolver single action, I don't cock the hammer until it's nearly at the point of sighting. If I am using my .45 Colt blackhawk to shoot at a deer, I don't cock it until I practically have a good sight picture. To me that's just common sense. Never remove the thumb safety on your 1911 until you have full control of the firearm.

[bcp477]

I have a personal rule. I will not carry any hand gun that cannot be carried with a loaded chamber, but completely UN-cocked. That, of course, excludes SA's, like the 1911....but it also excludes such guns as Glocks. I like DAO just fine (which, if a true DAO, meets my requirements) and carried a Sig P250 for a while. I eventually settled on DA/SA, with a slide-mounted decocker/ safety as my favorite - so that is what I use now, exclusively.

To each his/ her own, but I find the DA/SA to offer the most positive safety set up of all.... and no hindrance in operation (I don't mind the DA trigger pull and train with it). I also prefer the "backwards" arrangement of flicking the slide-mounted safety/ decocker lever off with my thumb, after the pistol clears the holster. It just feels natural to me.

[Case Stuffer]

My first responce was post #5 , now that others have posted I will explain my reasons for the switch.

When I first started carrying I was 18 and shot a lot ,grew into IPSC,PPC,bowling pins, steel plate matches and during a 5 year of so period fired around 3 to 5 thousand rounds a week . How to safely use a 1911 was automatic.

All these years later and now the 45 ACP is not as friendly .

Ammo for 9MM is less expensive to reload , recoil is easier on old joints, as long as 9mm is used by NATO ,most police ,HLS, it should be easier to find if SHTF.

XD 9mm as a CCW with 13 onboard and 16 standing at ready should be way more than needed.
DA SA makes AD less likely. Some do not really care for the long around six pound trigger and neither do I if I was trying to make head shots at 25 yards but remember most self defense shooting are at 20 feet or less and most times less than 3 rounds are fired.

I have no manual safety to manage, like a Revolver if I pull the trigger long and hard enough it fires. I have tried ammo from , 115 JHP +P+ Speer LE (law only)to my cast .135 gr. Semi Wad Cutter cast 18 Bh and should be over 1,000 feet per second and it never ever fails to feed,fire,eject.

XD9MM Sub Compact functions so great that I want a XDS.45 ACP which from all of my research is happy eating any ammo it is given and while the 3 is enough I still feel better with a .45ACP at my side.


Those who think that thing a six pound trigger pull or less than perfect sights will be notice in a real self defense situation need a reality check. Ask yourself if you can print 3 rounds center mass at up to 20 feet in a mostly dark situation.Many years ago when I taught self defense shooting I started students at 7 feet and worked them up to 20 feet ,first with lights on , then with lights off. All of this was with the sights covered.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I've carried DA revolvers, DA semi autos and SA semi-autos on and off duty as a LEO for 30+ years, I am a firearms instructor for my Dept. and have been for 20 years and was on the SWAT team 10 years. I've known personally three officers shot by negligent discharges and locally we have had two more officers accidently shot recently. I can think of two officers shot and killed within the past few years after being disarmed in a fight. None of these incidents were the fault of a single action semi auto.

Personally I subscribe to the training that pistol safeties save lives. A large law enforcement agency had two saves when officers had their guns snatched and I personally know an officer who tells their own story how their pistol safety saved their life, we have similar stories here locally.

I've been on the range practicing with carry gear, triple threat holsters, double threat holsters, slide safety semi auto, frame safety semi auto, DOA, traditional double single, single action semi autos the various revolvers. Personally I carry a 1911. Being familiar with your gear and practicing with it often are the most important factors.

Our station has more bullet holes from Glocks than by far than from any other weapon type. I would never carry a Glock or any internal / passive safety firearm especially one with such a short trigger pull as the Glock. The Glock is the most popular pistol in law enforcement but it is on duty a $100.00 plus holster that has a series of buttons, switches, snaps to make it safe for duty carry and I do not subscribe to that philosophy. It seems like every few years we have a change in philosophy and out goes the old in in comes the new. In the mean time the 1911 stays as a steady option.

The DAO is a more difficult pistol to learn to shoot well. A local law enforcement agency issued them, but gave them up as a one size fits all and lets the officers pick the 1911 or Glock.

We have lots of 1911's on duty in our local area. One of our guys is on the military's Delta team, he states that the ops guys all use 1911's.

[Alan in Vermont]

Since I don't own anything DAO my experience has been limited to shooting other guys guns. That has been mostly Springfield and Glock manufacture, mostly in .40 cal. Since I wouldn't own a 9mm I've never really paid any attention to how those do feel. My hands and fingers are on the short, thick side. In them the bleepin' double stack mag guns feel about as natural as holding a 2 x 4. Then add in having to haul back on the DA pull with the tip of my finger makes for less than comfortable shooting. My 1911 with a short trigger fits my hand very nicely, plus, with an arched housing it points right. I used to carry a DA revolver and still have one so I alternate between the .45 and a 6-shot 357 4". I feel comfortable, and competent, with either. If somebody made a single stack DAO .40 (they may be out there and I'm just not aware of it) and I had the $ that would be a gun I would consider owning.

[Jeff82]

Good question, and good answers. Other than for the safety concerns raised above, much of the answer lies in personal preference and individual experience with specific weapons. When I was a LEO and carried my weapon on a Sam Browne belt, I had the option at various times of carrying a DA revolver 38 and 357, M-1911 or DA Berretta semi-auto. Of the three I preferred a DA revolver in 357. The Berretta was a close second. I found that the shorter barrel and poorer sights reduced accuracy and the DA trigger pull was terrible, at least on the one I had. For its intended use though, these probably were not big drawbacks. I really hated the M-1911. Still do. This is probably akin to saying that one hates apple pie, but the idea of SA cocked and locked never made sense to me, and being a lefty it wouldn't work for me based on how the safety is set up. I apologize to M-1911 owners everywhere, but that's how I feel. Oddly, for no logical reason, I'm drawn back to DA revolvers as my weapon of preference. Glocks are better, I know. But for no logical reason.....

When I had to carry a concealed weapon 100% of the time off duty, I came to really hate having to do this. Eventually, after carrying a DA 380 Berretta, I smaller-sized my thinking. What became most comfortable for me was carrying a small 22 caliber DA Berretta with no round in the chamber in my pocket. If I were to need to carry something everyday, this is what I'd carry. It's safe, and with a little practice you can jack to slide in a fluid movement when drawing. For civilian CCW applications the legal requirement is always to escape, and not stand ones ground (expect for the Castle doctrine). For that reason, a person would be often hard pressed to open fire at anything more than ones immediate distance. So, a small light pistol would work well for typical, legally defensible, situations. Wimpy though this would be for the full range of altercations one could envision.

Again, I apologize to M-1911 loyalists everywhere.

[prs]

I like my Glock. It is light, reliable and in .40 it has moxie; BUT in my humble opinion it has NO safety at all, unless you carry it empty chambered. I feel comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911 or a revolver with hammer be it single or double action. Much if not most of the safe to carry issue is gonna be the human factor.

prs

[Texantothecore]

I like SA because the trigger pull is the same as my rifles, all single shot. Probably a bit of an odd reason but it gives me a lot more confidence in a chaotic situation....in the dark and alone.

[1bluehorse]

No brainer for me- DA semi-auto or revolver without safety levers or gadgets.

This one !!! This one !!! WINNER !!!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have two Glocks a G35 in .40S&W and a G21SF in .45 ACP. I started my pistol training at Front Sight 8 years ago with a CZ40P DA decocker in .40S&W.

I fully expected to be #1 in the class because I was a really good pistol shooter. I finished #39 out of 40 and the only person I beat was the woman who had never fired a gun and I was coaching!

I ran the CZ thru 3 classes and figured out that in order to learn to shoot you must master the basics. This is hard to do with a pistol as complicated as a DA/SA decocker. too many conditions you must deal with. Also if you fail to decock before holstering you are holstering a gun with NO Safety ON and a 2lb trigger! The gun is simply too complicated for a beginner. Oh, for your info I was a beginner.

I sold it and got a G35.

The reason why Glocks are so popular is because they are the simplest pistols to master. You can only do three things to a Glock. You can insert a magazine, rack the slide and pull the trigger. With this in mind it is possible to learn all facets of handgun operation much faster. Then you can advance to other gun types if you still want to.

I got the G35 first. I learned how to operate it , then I decided I wanted to move up to a 1911. After weeks of playing with a friends 1911 (which I really really liked) I decided to buy a G21 for my .45..

Here's the reason why. Both of my Glocks have exactly the same trigger pull and operate and are setup the exact same way right down to the sights which are both Dawson Precision Sights. I can pick up either one and do the exact same things and get the exact same outcome, as long as I don't mash!

If I had bought the 1911 I would have to think about what I'm doing, and I have been thru enough tactical training courses to know for sure that you don't have time to think in a gunfight.

All of you LEO guys were basically trained to shoot as a last resort. I am a civilian, I am trained that if I draw my gun it is due to iminent threat, and I am going to fire twice as soon as the sights come to bare. and if that doesn't stop you then you'll get one more in the face.

This would happen immediately after someone crossed "my line in the sand." I'm damn sure not going to wait until you shoot at me first, that tactic is a guaranteed loser.

It would happen in less than 2 seconds, and nobody has time to think, and consider options in 2 seconds. all of this has to be figured out well in advance and trained to perfection. This is why I have Glocks.

I also train alot. I have a SIRT laser training pistol that mimics my Glocks. I shoot it every night.

I live in SoCAl... so I pretty much CAN't carry a gun. However That doesn't mean I can't use one for home defense. I live in the outskirts of town and the response time for the Sherriffs is about 20 minutes. They told me to do what is necessary to stay alive and they will clean up the mess.

When I go to Walmart I am on high alert, and I am watching what is going on around me at all times, because I don't have gun as a last resort. I have to rely on my perceptions and wits to not get backed into a corner where there is no way out.

The whole point of my post is not to glorify Glocks, they are just a means to an end. Or to convice you I'm some kind of hotrod gunfighter, I'm not. I'm just relatively competant.

What I'm saying is that if I bought a 1911 I would not train with the Glocks any more I would train with the 1911. It is easier to go from a 1911 back to a Glock than go from a Glock to a 1911.

However, whatever you shoot you need to train with dry practice frequently like once a week to maintain your proficiency. I don't see this happening in the vast majority of shooters, and especially LE guys.

I live across the street from the County Sherriff's Armoror. He tells me that he can't even get the deputies to come to the range twice a year because the county won't pay for their ammo! They have to qualify once a year, and the test is so easy I could easily pass it,,, weak hand only.

Seems like if you carry a gun for a living, you should be a little more interested in your abilities than that?

What do you think?

The long and short of it is,,, any gun will do if you will do, and if you aren't proficient with whatever you have,,,you need to run!

If you run,,, do make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction so you don't shoot yourself.

Randy

[Piedmont]

I live in SoCAl... so I pretty much CAN't carry a gun. However That doesn't mean I can't use one for home defense.

What do you think?



With respect, I think the fact you don't carry pretty well invalidates the rest. When I didn't carry, a full size 1911 or 4" .357 Mag was the perfect defense gun because that is what magazine gurus told me. After I got a carry permit twenty years ago that all went out the window.

For a house gun about anything will work. For a carry gun I like something I can jerk and get into action without thinking which makes a strong case for DA/SA or DAO.

[leftiye]

In tiny guns like the Kel Tec Pf9 (DAO) and the Beretta Tomcat (.32 SAO), the advantage of the single action is obvious. There is a world of difference between the hold the single action affords (now you CAN aim), and the two fingered abortion the Kel Tec allows whilst spraying lead. The SA/DA (my preference) is as good as it gets unless you have time to cock the first shot. Except when it's slow motion panic time, therefore a single action is best because it aims better. I told my first wife that if she found a stray rectum in the house to cock the gun put the sights to center mass and if he came towards her, drop the hammer. She never did anything that I told her. The replacement will probly kill you if you need it. The point being that the cocked gun is harder to take away and survive the effort. I hear some of you about the ease of discharge, but if I have to cock that thing and point it at you, an accidental discharge is probably still going to be justifiable, even if not real probable.

[Love Life]

Either one is fine with me as long is it is one or the other.

Let me explain.

If it is a DA it needs to be the same trigger pull the whole time. I can't stand the pistols that are a DA pull on the first shot and then SA on following shots.

[MtGun44]

Primary carry gun is ltwt Commander, SA, Condition One. Sometimes
carry Keltec PF9 or P3AT, both DAO. Practice with both, not a problem
but I prefer the SA fine quality trigger pull. Purely a training issue, IMO.

Occasionally, SIG P225 is carried, SA/DA. This took some considerable training
to learn the transition, and initially I was not safe, likely to AD a shot during
"take up" of SA for second shot. VERY disconcerting, and I took some serious
effort to train up on this gun before carrying. MANY, MANY two shot draw and
fire exercises. Training is key, all can be learned, eventually, and if you want
to.

Agree that SA or DAO is MUCH easier to master, no change.

Bill

[DaveCampbell]

Most of the time when I'm out boondocking around Wyoming I carry one of several .44 Special revolvers. If I go to town--especially a big town like Billings--I always pack a 1911 with a pair of spares. Like another poster said, it's your life and your choice. I'm not going to diss DAs or DAOs; if they work for you, God Bless, but I've been shooting the 1911 for 40 years, and I'm too old and too set in my ways to learn how to shoot a new platform. Each design has had its share of negligent discharges; it is my contention that it's more a question of the capabilities of the nut behind the trigger than a particular design.

-----------------------------------------------------

A pen in the hand of this president is more of a threat to the public than 200 million Americans with semi-automatic rifles.

[jonp]

After carring various size 1911 handguns for CCW for the past 40 years , a few years ago i switched to Kahrs DA stricker fired handguns , all 3 a PM9,TP45 and CW45 have excellent 5 lb DA trigger pulls and no safetys to worry about and are very accurate and reliable .Im very impressed with there product.
I have 4 Kahr's. K-9, MK-9 and 2 CW45's. I have owned well over 100 handguns and the Kahr's have the best double action trigger I have run across for any money. Kinda long but very smooth and easy to master. I am not a big fan of pistols with safety's. They are just one more thing to try and fool with when under extreme stress but as a previous poster said it is all a matter of training. For those that do not get a chance to shoot that much or have little training I recommend a safety if an auto is insisted on or a DA pistol for the nightstand/carry. If the person really just wants one for the nightstand I recommend a Ruger Blackhawk 357. If you fumble for it in the dark or reach and grab it it will not go off no matter what you do short of cocking the hammer.

[jonp]

With respect, I think the fact you don't carry pretty well invalidates the rest. When I didn't carry, a full size 1911 or 4" .357 Mag was the perfect defense gun because that is what magazine gurus told me. After I got a carry permit twenty years ago that all went out the window.

For a house gun about anything will work. For a carry gun I like something I can jerk and get into action without thinking which makes a strong case for DA/SA or DAO.
Young man at work just got his CCW and insisted on a full size steel 1911. I told him it was a great sidearm but I would buy it when he was sick of carrying around that big of a chunk of metal everyday. I know some men and women don't mind it but I sure do. He is already regretting it as a primary carry weapon.

[725]

Glock makes a single stack .45 ACP.

[Finster101]

Glock makes a single stack .45 ACP.



I hate glocks. Just as the man said about 1911s. They are a fine weapon but they do not fit me. Fl is a sweaty place for the most part so it's a stainless officers model or a kel-tec p-32 most of the time. I got used to the trigger on the kel-tec and when I take it to the range I refuse to clean it first. I goes bang every time, even with a horrid amount of pocket lint, thus giving me great confidence in it. Carry what works for you.

[Jeff.L]

I own a Sig DAO it shoots great but you have to practace to get use to it..

[MtGun44]

Jonp,

Have him get a Sparks WatchSix and use a lightweight Commander and he will
be happy. With this holster, the ltwt Commander is very comfortable all day.

http://www.miltsparks.com/Watch_Six.htm

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Piedmont: so you're agreeing with me that a Glock is one of the best choices because they are really simple pistols to learn and operate.

I'm pretty sure that's what I read? :kidding:

Randy

[Love Life]

I love Glock pistols.

[Piedmont]

Piedmont: so you're agreeing with me that a Glock is one of the best choices because they are really simple pistols to learn and operate.

I'm pretty sure that's what I read? :kidding:

Randy
Well, they are kinda' fat, but I don't want anyone shooting at me with a Glock because it probably will go bang every time and he won't forget to hit the safety.

[Jeff.L]

I have a sig DAO shoots very well practice is the key....

[jp99]

Well it's either a S&W Revolver, all have external hammers however they get shot double action most of the time minus my 8". When not carrying a revolver it's a HK P7 or 1911 both single action. Revolvers tend to rule the roost for my carry and home defense situations so mostly double action shooting at the range. Shoot what you are familiar with, any firearm can become second nature with practice.

Regards,

JP99