Restore or Leave As Is?

[schutzen]

I was fortunate enough to purchase a Winchester 1892 .32-20 yesterday. It is a round barrel 1/2 magazine saddle ring carbine. It is light, handy, and I really like the .32-20 for plinking. Here is my dilemma. It is really rough. The wood is solid, but looks terrible. The metal finish is non-existent. And the ring of the saddle ring is missing.

I am really debating having this gun refinished. I believe the collector’s value is gone. Refinished and restored, it would be a pleasurable walk-about rifle for my remaining days as a gentleman farmer (like I really need another rifle).

I would like to hear your thoughts before I make my decision. Thanks, Steve.

[Photog]

This may fly in the face of some people's views, but here it goes:
Its your rifle.
If it's not a collectors item, but a working gun, then make it pretty!
Just because its old doesn't mean it is something more than a tool to launch lead.
But, think ahead 50 years - in 50 years would you look back and regret having refinished it?
Steel and wood do not last forever.
Maybe you could buy repro stocks and save the originals, and rub some T-9 into the metal with 0000 steel wool? That would protect the metal and not remove anything more than some rust.

[Marvin S]

Sounds like the mag tube may have been already cut, put up a picture. Ask yourself if it is worth the money to have it redone and at what level of work would look satisfactory to you and maybe a potential buyer down the road. I would just leave it alone and keep up on the mechanics, but it is your gun.

[bob208]

they don't have to be pristen to be collector items. pictures would be nice. dome peoples idea of rough is anothers idea of grat shape. i can tell you a carbine with a non standard mag is a desirable gun for any collection.

as far as the it is your gun do what you want. i say we are only care takers of them. for our short time here.

with out pictures i would say replace the saddle ring and leave it alone.

[Jack Stanley]

Have you determined how much money you want to spend on the project yet ? If it shoots good like it is and doesn't need a liner you are in good shape to start . I would tend to be in the camp that says " It's your rifle " and " Make it pretty " Just about anybody can put a finish on it and take your money . If it's going to be yours untill you pass on to your reward I'd suggest get someone who can replicate a Winchester finish , you're worth it :-)

Jack

[square butte]

I have a half magazine saddle ring carbine just like yours in 25-20. It's not super rare - but a less common configuration than a plain old saddle ring carbine. My question is, How is the bore condition? If bad - you could have it relined and replace the stock wood at not too much expens. New saddle rings are easy to come by. If it has a good bore -Shoot it as is. Then replce the stocks down the line if you don't like them. The rifle you have is my favorite configuration of the Winchester 92. Were it mine - Which it is not - I probably would only refinish the metal if in extremely bad condition. Go to Merz Winchesters website and you will find photos of 92's like yours for sale. Photos would be helpfull here for truely good advise.

[freebullet]

If she got no finish n ya wanna use it better refin. If ya not gonna user or has a good collector value leaver b

[22lover]

Although I have no idea about this rifle's value, I agree with photog. Do what makes you happy for your gun. Did you buy it for collector's purposes, or to use it? I refinished an 8mm Mauser that most C&R folks would make me walk the plank for doing. However, it's my gun and there are tons of them in circulation. The steel was just about in the white. The wood was rough. I took the thing apart, cleaned it thoroughly, sanded it, prepped it totally, and refinished it with Duracoat from a cheap $10 Harbor Freight airbrush. I sanded the imperfections out of the stock (a TON of effort), and rubbed in many coats of BLO. You know what? It looks absolutely fantastic on all fronts. Like new, in fact. More importantly, to me, is that it's protected. And,I'm not afraid to take it out and shoot it whenever I wish.

Keep in mind, though, that I don't purchase guns for "investment." I think a gun is a very poor investment, in the strict (financial) sense of the word.

[wch]

This may fly in the face of some people's views, but here it goes:
Its your rifle.
If it's not a collectors item, but a working gun, then make it pretty!
Just because its old doesn't mean it is something more than a tool to launch lead.
But, think ahead 50 years - in 50 years would you look back and regret having refinished it?
Steel and wood do not last forever.
Maybe you could buy repro stocks and save the originals, and rub some T-9 into the metal with 0000 steel wool? That would protect the metal and not remove anything more than some rust.
I vote with "photog".

[JHeath]

Do what makes you happy. But it's like plastic surgery; if you can be happy carrying an honestly-worn 1892, you are a richer man than if you need a bluing tank to make you happy. I say re-crown it, tighten the sights, and devote yourself to shooting it.

[scb]

I'd say it's your rifle, you should do as you want with it. The only thing I would say is if you are going to restore it have it done by someone that knows what they are doing. Go to someone who can show you examples of their work. IF you're "well healed" I would recommend these folks. I've seen their work and it is top notch. http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20181&catid=19872

[schutzen]

Well, I did buy the gun to use. I collect guns, but all of my guns are shooters.

I do not plan to sell any of my guns. I have 4 children and 6 grandchildren that are shooters. They will inherit all of my guns. I doubt any of them will sell any of the guns. I have given all of them guns and all still have those, so I have no reason to believe they will sell any others.

I can afford Turnbull, but he is at the upper limit of my budget. However, I am fairly sure I do not want to spend that much on a rifle I will walk my fields with. I envision this as more a working rifle then a show piece. I will carry it when I check fences, check the levy, check storm damage, et al. That does not mean I will beat it up in the back of a pick-up, but it will be carried and shot.

If I chose to refinish, I will do the wood myself. I could still put $500 in to refinishing the metal and be at or under the cost of a Marlin 1894 .32-20.

I'm still thinking, Thanks for the comments.

[guicksylver]

Original finish is original finish no mater how bad it is.

Check the second sales on ANY antique firearm being sold that has been redone even by the factory.

Once "Redone" no mater by who cost the owner the price of the work and the loss in value.

For example a 92 win redone by the factory say 50-60 years ago will sell for about half the price of one in poor but original condition.

If you want a pretty gun buy a repro.

like the man says we are only custodians of these fine old pieces.

Or redo it and make mine worth more.

Sorry to be so harsh but I've seen so many ruined forever by these restorations and that includes Turn Bull.

[Speedo66]

I'd say it's your rifle, you should do as you want with it. The only thing I would say is if you are going to restore it have it done by someone that knows what they are doing. Go to someone who can show you examples of their work. IF you're "well healed" I would recommend these folks. I've seen their work and it is top notch. http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=20181&catid=19872

Their prices are breathtaking, and to be honest, I preferred the "before" guns. Guns can only be original once.

[rintinglen]

I have no patience with the snobby collector types who insist on "original" finish. Horse pucky!
It didn't come from the factory pitted, scratched and missing the bluing, with a dark cratered bore. If you are going to use it as a shooter, make it as nice as you want it to be. Replace the wood, have someone who knows his work refinish the metal and reline the bore and off you go. Where it gets chancy is when you have a gun on the cusp of collectible, that shows honest wear, but is still sound, or a true antique, a Cavalry Colt or something like that, no matter how worn. But a model 92? Unless it was Admiral Byrd's, or some similar historical figure, if it's rough, fix it up.

[dagger dog]

How about just stabilizing ,stop the rust,seal the wood,add a equally worn saddle ring,get it where it functions and shoots well.

You can repair or replace the innards even going as far as a barrel liner, that's not going to show,and it will keep the old rifle looking old, but you'll have the best of both,perfect patina !

It would be kinda like that not so pretty gal in the 7th grade,the one that had the knockout body you used to daydream about !

[OverMax]

Because it has lost its bluing doesn't mean its lost all its value. To re-blue in its current condition would indeed reduce its current value. At this point your rifle now has character Sir. Shoot it and enjoy what times you can spend together. Keep that rebuild money in your wallet and go look for another in better original condition for the wall / safe would be my advice. (like I really need another rifle). Me too. I have 7 of of them old 1894-64-94 Winnys. Each one is unique in its own way. And so is yours schutzen.

O/M

[John Boy]

WINCHESTER MODEL 92 SADDLE RING CARBINE

Item # W714

Cal 32-20. Original sights. Full length mag tube. Good bore. Original forearm in VG condition. Buttstock has been sanded some and is undersized around the wrist. Complete with carbine style buttplate. Overall metal is mostly a gunmetal grey/brown patina with some minor pitting on the receiver. Correct saddle ring. All original except where noted.
Modern $ 975.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's the bottom line. The gun is not worth that much. It is a generic gun (IE common and many of them made,) If it was all original and in pristine condition it might bring $1500 on the best of days. It is not in that condition so $250 is probably closer to reality.

I also have a dim view of collectors items. Especially ones which weren't that popular to begin with. 55-56-57 Chevy 4 doors are NOT collectors items. They were family cars. 2 door Hardtops (No post)were the nice ones and everyone wants one. A restored 57 4 door is definately worth more than a "original condition one" unless the original is in showroom condition. Since there are few left in showroom condition, they are called "rare" and thus worth something more than a resto. But the market for a 57 4 door is limited at best so no matter what,,, it is never going to bring the money a 57 2 door hardtop will.

If your gun has a nice bore and doesn't need relining I would redo or replace the wood and have the rest re blued by a competant gunsmith. If the barrel is shot then I'd reline it and do the same thing.

Another way to go is to sell it and buy a better one, which could relieve all of the anxiety associated with this decision..

Randy

[Mooseman]

Funny thing is the price value of a collectors gun is all about Original condition...An 1892 32-20 Carbine in 95% original shape is worth $5500.00 where the same gun in 10% original shape is worth $750.00. BIG price difference. One NIB would bring 10-15 K at auction.

Refinished has shooters value only...To a collector who has the big money to spend only an Original will do.
Its like someone stripping and painting an antique piece of furniture , and then see what they say on Antiques Roadshow...

[TXGunNut]

FWIW I'd stabilize the metal finish and remove the dents and scratches in the wood. A nice BLO or even Tru-Oil finish should keep the wood preserved long enough to make refinishing your heirs' problem. Metal with good, honest wear looks better to me than a refinished gun, but that's just me.
A Turnbull restoration isn't totally out of the question but then it'll be a work of art that I'd hesitate to toss in the truck for a working rifle. Your call, but as has been pointed out we're not owners, merely caretakers.

[BCRider]

For the metal it's a toss up. But either way if it had the original blue, is worn totally back to "white" or if you re-blue it the metal still needs to be oiled to avoid corrosion. So if the metal as it is has an attractive patina, as opposed to the results of blatant abuse, I'd say leave the metal alone.

The wood is another story. Just like with the metal the wood requires a proper periodic sort of maintanence. Too often I've seen oiled stocks where the last feeding coat of oil was many years ago. The result being that folks think the wood is "dry rotted", punky or some other nonsense. The only thing of this sort that ruins the wood is storing it with a neglected finish in an area that sees a lot of heavy moisture. In such conditions rot becomes a viable worry. But not before the metal has turned crusty red and deeply pitted.

The collectors seem to think that dull and lifeless wood on old guns is the proper look. But I say "balderdash" to such nonsense. It's not proper, it's abuse. They'll look at an old rifle that WAS correctly feed coat oiled once a year and call it "re-finished" and not be interested in it. Their loss and our gain I say.

Pressure dings in the wood can be popped back out with a moist rag and heat from a laundry iron. The steam softens and swells the wood and the internal stress of the damage pushes the wood back out to nearly the original shape. Actual splinters can be glued back into place if simply loose. Missing wood can either be replaced with a graft of similar wood. In some cases a slip can be removed from behind the butt plate to do this so it's the original wood. In others a worse damaged stock of similar wood and grain can be a donor for grafts. Or the edges of the splintered wood can be simply lightly sanded to avoid catching a new splinter in the hands of the user.

At that point "burnishing" the wood with some coarse steel wool dipped in the proper original finishing oil as a lubricant will both smoothen and feed the wood's finish in a nice way. But avoid any sanding other than if needed to smoothen a chipped out area's edges. The steel wool mostly pushes the wood back down and surface hardens it to leave the patina intact. Sanding cuts away the paper thick patina level by scoring away the wood. And that's about the last thing you want.

Let the oil applied with the steel wool pad soak in for a few minutes then vigourously wipe it off with a rag or paper towel. This treatment should be repeated once a year for the life of the wood. It's nice to remove the stocks for this as it lets you feed and finish the inside surfaces as well. And when the wood finish oil polymerizes to a varnish like film after a week or two it aids in avoiding the metal oil from soaking into the end grain and creating those nasty dark areas on the transition borders of the stocks.

If this is a working piece then it's nice to buff up the stocks with a little hard paste furniture wax about every 3 to 4 months. Just be sure that the oil you last applied no longer has any aroma. It's pretty obvious when that happens if you take note of the oil's polymerization progress as denoted by the aroma change over a two month period.

FWIW when I "feed coat" a stock I like to clean it of any skin oils and furniture wax that tends to hold dust with a brisk wipedown of a rag with some mineral spirits on it. The MS cuts the waxes and oils quickly but gently. Let it dry then apply the correct finish oil for the gun. If we don't clean it like this the finishing oil will not be able to fight through the buildup to get into the wood. Not to mention that the oil which does make it will bind the grunge to the wood so the grain becomes more and more muddy looking over a few years worth of use. And dark, muddy looking grain isn't anything more than a sign of bad stewardship IMHO.

With this bit of attention even 100 year old wood glows with a happy smile and clear looking wood grain while still proudly showing off each and every little mark of it's history.

[451whitworth]

Original finish is original finish no mater how bad it is.

Check the second sales on ANY antique firearm being sold that has been redone even by the factory.

Once "Redone" no mater by who cost the owner the price of the work and the loss in value.

For example a 92 win redone by the factory say 50-60 years ago will sell for about half the price of one in poor but original condition.

If you want a pretty gun buy a repro.

like the man says we are only custodians of these fine old pieces.

Or redo it and make mine worth more.

Sorry to be so harsh but I've seen so many ruined forever by these restorations and that includes Turn Bull.
this is only kind of true as it depends on what kind of arm you are talking about. Winchester 21's don't loose any value when properly refinished. British guns and rifles also don't loose any value when refurbished by the maker. Even when the forend or butt stock is replaced or a new barrel or barrels are fitted they bring top dollar as if nothing was ever redone.