anyone using a muzzleloading handgun

[Lloyd Smale]

heres what im looking at. I took a muzzle loading rifle and made a handgun out of it and took it to the range today for the first time with some pretty miserable results. I was using sabots (which i intend to keep using) and cast bullets. I tried two differnt 255 swcs and one 280 wfn. I tried them sized to 451 452 453 and unsized. I tried them with 80 90 and 100 grains of 3f triple 7. This gun has a pistol scope on it and shot well as a rifle. Best im getting is about 4 inch groups at 25 yards!! Gun uses 209 primers. I guess what im looking for is someone else that is shooting something simular and what worked or what i should try next. Im thinking heavier bullets, possible jacketed bullets, going to 44 and 44 sabots (but ive not had much luck with them in other muzzle loaders and switching powders. Anyone have any advise that might help me luck into something. I did also pick up some roundballs and patches today and some breakaway sabots to try rather then the regular magnum knight sabots ive been using.

[fishhawk]

well my first question is what rate of twist does the barrel have? thats going to realy determin if it shoots conicals or ball, and that much powder in a hand gun muzzle loader is not being burned in the barrel

[MT Gianni]

I shoot a Lyman plains pistol, 50 cal, .490round balls, .010 patch, 28 gr fffg or pyrodex pistol. Good groups at 25 yards. I don't know if I can help you there Lloyd. Gianni

[Lloyd Smale]

I not to bright when it comes to muzzle loader but its was an inline so it should be twisted for sabots and im under the understanding that black powder exploads rather then burns so i wouldnt think it would be as critical for powder burning in a short barrel. I know that even shooting a 100 grains out of it I dont get anymore muzzle flash they out of a rifle and theres a marked increase in recoil between 80 90 and a 100 grains so it apparently is being cosumed in the barrel. The barrel is 15 inches long.

[MT Gianni]

If that is the case Lloyd I would have a hard look at the crown. I would also shoot a maxiball just so I could feel the bbl as it loaded as to uniformity. Maybe the cut was in a wider portion of the bbl. If the only thing that changed is cutting it back you have to examine that. Gianni.

[fishhawk]

black powder does not "explode" reason it's considerd a low explosive is it burns at the same rate confined in a barrel or out in the open, the burn rate is controled by the size of the powder grains IE Fg or FFFg, in the civil war some of the siege guns unsed charges of up to 150 lbs of powder but the grains were the size of small apples

[Lloyd Smale]

bought a couple differnt kinds of powder to try but got to looking at it and i think Gianni might have hit on the problem. When i wacked the barrel i tried to recess the crown about an inch to make it easier to start projectiles. The barrel on the rifle was crooked when we chucked it up in the lathe and i think by looking that my recess is off center a touch. Im going to wack that part of the barrel off and give it a conventional crown and try that.

[44man]

Very well could be it. I have several friends that have the TC rifles with the easy start muzzle and not a one of them shoot for beans. I think the gas escaping past the bullet or ball in that portion has some effect. The old timers made false muzzles to start things. If you look at an old wallowed out muzzle, worn from the rod, none shoot anymore.

[mazo kid]

I'm not at all well versed on inlines as I shoot traditional m/l'ers. For my 2 cents worth, I think you are using WAY too much powder in a pistol barrel. There is no way a short barrel is going to utilize 80-100 grains of powder! Most (depending on caliber) m/l pistols use 25-40 grains or so of bp. Not saying you can't put more in, but it is not going to be consumed in the barrel before the boolit/ball has exited. At least, that's how I see it. Emery

[44man]

How did I miss that???? Very true and the blast at the inside of the enlarged portion of the muzzle only makes it worse. Way too much powder and it actually decreases velocity because you have to add the unburned powder to the bullet weight as well as the that does burn.
If the barrel is long enough you might get as high as 60 gr's to burn like the Colt Walker but I don't know if 777 will do it. I don't think it burns as fast as black. Even though the rifling was fast in the rifle you can't get the velocity to spin the bullet enough with the short barrel. I think a shorter bullet is in order. Might be worth trying a patched round ball too. Time to experiment.

[flinter62]

Lloyd, From what i know ML target pistols will have fast twist rifling like 1 in 22 in. Try patched RB with powder charges in the 30-50 gr.range Flinter62

[floodgate]

mazo kid:

Reminds me of a story I have told on one of our previous Boards; maybe there are enough new folks here that the "oldies" will let me tell it once more.

Back in the 'fifties, I had gotten a college buddy interested in shooting, and he had really taken to the idea of black powder in muzzle-loaders (originals, in those days). I had found him a worn but serviceable 1863 Springfield rifle-musket, and he had then, on his own, found a French "gendarme" flintlock pistol with a 5- or 6-inch barrel that would nicely take a .58 round ball. We got them all cleaned up, collected the "necessaries", and headed out to Lyman's Blue Trail range with our various smoke-makers to check them out. We picked a couple of adjacent benches, and I was busy with a newly-acquired ($35!!! Them wuz the days...) Remington New Model 1863 .44 revolver. When last I looked, he had been setting up the Springfield, so when he asked, "How much powder should I start with?" I said over my shoulder, "Try 75 grains." A bit later there was a hellacious "BANG!", and I turned to see him with the pistol pointed straight up amid a cloud of blue smoke, and an amazed expression on his face.

No harm done, and he stayed with the program afterward, but....

floodgate

[Lloyd Smale]

Thanks for all the good info. Anyone have a clue as to how fast a 15 inch barrel is going to push a round ball with 60 grains of powder. I know id need to let you know what powder but im just looking for a rough guess. If i cant get the power level up to deer hunt levels this whole thing is a wash anyway.

[madcaster]

Lloyd,
Should be about 1200 FPS,black powder never gets above 2000 FPS I do not think-guys,correct me if I am wrong.
I think the characteristics of bp is such that is is not capable of more FPS than 2000,regardless of powder charge.

[44man]

Sounds about right. I get 1102 fps with my Ruger Old Army and 41 gr's of Swiss FFFG. Heck, with a 15" barrel, you might get close to 1250 or more.

[R.M.]

Something else to concider. How deep is your rifling? In-liners tend to have shallower grooves, which makes it more difficult to stabilize a RB.

Maybe?????
R.M.

[Lloyd Smale]

Well i have it cut off and recrowned. Testing will resume on monday.

[fiberoptik]

The problem with shotgun primers is that they launch the bullet & powder charge down the barrel before they even get well lit. Try a patched rb with just the primer to see for yourself. That, too much powder, and a bad crown can kill accuracy on anything!

[Rattus58]

Lloyd, From what i know ML target pistols will have fast twist rifling like 1 in 22 in. Try patched RB with powder charges in the 30-50 gr.range Flinter62

That is very true. In a full length barrel with speeds of say 1400 fps, a .451 bullet of 1.4" requires a twist of about 1-18. This produces a Revolutions per Second of roughly 860 fps. In order to do this in a pistol with say a 900 fps load, you'd need a twist rate of 1-12" to give you the 860 rev's per second you'd need to stabilize.

With the round ball.. say a 45 caliber... the basic twist required to stabilize this ball is about 67". The RPS this would provide at 1700 fps is about 304 Rev's per Second.

In order to accomplish this at say 1000 fps, you'd need to shorten up to about 40".

I have a friend who participated at Friendship two years ago with a homemade pistol with a 1-14 twist that he shot both 500 grain conicals and round balls from. The 500 grain bullets unfortunately split his beautiful Koa stocked pistol handle and he finished hte match by wrapping the handle with rubber or somethng......

Aloha... :cool:

[bigbore442001]

Well, I may have a clue as to what that specialty muzzleloading handgun will do as far as the ballistics are concerned.

I wouldn't bother with a round ball out of such a gun. The twist isn't conducive to accuracy with a patched round ball and it seems that such a gun is pretty much a sabot shooter no matter what.

I have shot 90 grains of H777 out of my .50 caliber Kahnke pistol .With the 14" barrel installed, the velocities are around 1300 fps with a 250 grain sabot.

With an 18" barrel installed, the velocities with the same load( both bullet and powder) run an average of 1680 fps. I am not sure if this is logically but there is a gain of 126 fps per inch of barrel. So a 15" barrel would clock in around 1426 or so. Then again, there are a lot of variables.

I would have had more to report until I wanted to shoot up some Buffalo Bore bullets that have that rubber doughnut on the base.

That thing really does a number on the screen of the Shooting Chrony.

[georgeld]

Lloyd:

Far as deer hunting with it, you're limited to 75yds or so max. Vel will fall off too much.
When you decide to scrap it, I'd like to have it less the scope and mounts. Would pay postage.

I have a kit gun .45 cal 5" long, can't hit anything with it, but, I can put them ALL thru a 4'x4' target frame at 100yds.

It's designed for rb's, which I've tried, 4" group at 25yds isn't bad for something like that, or this in my notion.
REAL's, and 250gr SWC's which it the best shooter in mine. Keep the powder charge down to 15-40gr. I've never tried sabots, don't believe in them myself. Expect if you'd go to tight fit full dia. slugs for a pistol and keep the charge down to about 30-40gr FFg you'd be surprised at how well it does assuming the crowning job is good.

IF you have a good seal, that last 1/2-3/4" of relief bore won't hurt anything. I've got it on my .54 28" and can't tell any difference except it's easy to load real tight hard slugs into. Get a fiberglass rod though instead of wood so it won't split and stab you with the splintered end.

Good luck, have fun, let's hear the results after the last reworking.