94 Win. 30-30 is giving me fits

[Alan in Vermont]

I'm having "issues" with my 94 Win., 30-30.

Boolit is Lyman 311407, actual weight is averaging 177 gr. with what I'm using for alloy, moderately hard mostly RS with a little tin.

This is my first try at approaching factory velocity with a boolit. I was planning to start at low jacketed boolit loads to determine if there was going to be leading, then drop back if it showed up, which it did not.

Load was; CCI LR, 30.0 BL-C2 and the above described 311407

I arrived at that load by reducing the load copied below, (among others) from Hodgdon data online.


Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.550" 32.5 2048 27,900 CUP

with the 177 gr. boolit instead of the 170 gr jacketed bullet listed for it. This is a starting load which I reduced another 2.5 grs in addition to the cast boolit instead of the jacketed one, thinking tha would more than offset the extra 7 grs. of projectile weight.

No leading, recoil level about the same as the 170 jacketed loads I fired as a control and pretty much the same POI at 25 yds. I'm too lazy to use longer ranges until I'm sure it will group in close.

Report was more hollow than normal, more like a shotgun than a rifle, if that makes sense.

Here's where it starts to get weird.

Some shots would drop the lever open just a bit, just barely unlocking the action. Primers show NO flattening or marks from the bolt face compared to loads of 3.5 B'eye ahead of the CCI primer and a 93 gr. boolit. This gun has something around the firing pin that leaves any primer fired in it with a slightly imprinted circle around the firing pin, almost like it had a protruding firing pin bushing. Do 94s have a firing pin bushing? At first glance it looks like the firing pin hole has wallowed out and the primer is cratering into that but this imprint is into the primer, not raised above it.

Loads as light as 2.7 BE/93 boolit do it, the BL-C2 loads actually show it a bit less. I never noticed it in the past but have since I started running a mss of light loads through the gun last summer. Fired primers are standing slightly proud with the light loads. I put that down to the primers getting set back on ignition and the low pressure BE loads not stretching the case back over them after the powder lit.

The primer setback is happening, to a lesser extent, with the BL-C2 loads, making me think that the cases are getting moved back with the higher pressure. The setback isn't completely gone but it's way less.

Can pressures be high enough to open a 94 action and still be below the threshold to show sign in the primer? Cases fired with the heavy loads sized with very little difference in feel from the ones fired with mouse farts. Headspace issues, maybe?

I'm stumped on this one, thinking I have to be overlooking something obvious.

[guicksylver]

Alan If I understand what you are saying ,I experienced the same situation with a 303 Savage I owned years ago. I for the longest time I fired only cast boolits in it.
was a vey accurate firearm (vintage 1899A). Every shot I made the primers would back off. It concerned me a bit. I thought I might have a head space problem.
However when I fired factory loads every thing was just fine. The same is happening with my 1917 win. 94. I've come to the conclusion that when firing cast boolit loads with a low enough velocity, there is enough pressure to push the primers back but not enough to fully expand the cases and "reseat" the primers.
NOT SAYING THIS IS WHATS HAPPENING WITH YOURS, but its happening in all three of my vintage 94s and the 1899 Savage.

'll check all mine to see if I have the same engraving that you are experiencing. I shoot about 50 rounds today so I'll have something to look at.

If you ever decide to get rid of that mold (311407) please let me know.

[TXGunNut]

The marks around the firing pin may be burrs due to dry firing. A handheld drill bit a few sizes larger than the firing pin hole will remove the burrs.
Not sure about your primer setback issue but headspace is a good place to start.

[guicksylver]

Alan Dan here again. I seam a little disjointed it's because its late here.
As for your boolit problem. The 311407 is ,as you know, a Loverin design with many groves , made to hold a lot of lube and meant to be fired at a very low velocity.
Around 1200-1400 FPS. the small driving bands as I said hold a lot of lube but don't like to hold the rifling.
To drive a cast boolit factory velocity you are much better off with one like Lymans' 311291 with large driving bands to hold the rifling. They actually shoot great at 2000 FPS+ in a 30-30.

Another story ,I had a first week production Winchester 1917 Enfield, when I tried to use the 311407s in it I got the shot gun Pop AND a whizzing sound. As it turned
out the boolits were stripping in the bore , switched to 311291 and a couple of others with large driving bands and the world was a good place.

Your 94 should shoot like you want with 311291 sized 309 and with gas checks, at least all mine do. Plus they are a great game getter.

[northmn]

Generally getting good accuracy out of a 94 is more like fine tuning other rifles. My own experiences with cast are that I seem to do better with faster powders up to 3031. I even use inexpensive Lee molds with excellent results. Their 150 grain mold shot very well as have others in my 32-20. I would say switch bullets.

DP

[Alan in Vermont]

The marks around the firing pin may be burrs due to dry firing. A handheld drill bit a few sizes larger than the firing pin hole will remove the burrs.
Not sure about your primer setback issue but headspace is a good place to start.

You hit that one dead center. The burr was from metal pushed out of the firing pin hole. I cut part of it off with a drill bit, hand held, but didn't want to chance taking too much of. Finished it up with a round Dremel stone, again hand held. Holding that so the end was square to the bolt face I stroked it sideways across the burr. Took a while, pretty tedious and I have so little patience it's embarassing, but finally got it down flush to the bolt face. There's not a lot of play between firing pin and hole but it does have some wiggle room. Not sure how much dry firing it has seen, it's a post-64 that I bought used in 1978 and it hasn't seen much since we've had it. I probably hasn't had 500 rds through it since then either. The next time I have it apart I'll do it on a weekday so I can run the bolt to my local machinist where I'm sure he has the means to gauge to firing pin hole, just to satisfy my curiousity.


From my original post;

Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.550" 32.5 2048 27,900 CUP

Disregarding the suitablility of BL-C2 for the application, can anyone see any reason that load should be generating pressures high enough to start to open the action? It wasn't doing it every shot, maybe one in every 4-5 rds, and was leaving zero indications of pressure other than the lever dropping.

Dan brought up the possibility of the boolits stripping the rifling. That being the case, might it be possible for one rd to strip and leave a bunch of lead stuck in the grooves, causing the next round to generate high pressure? I don't remember having two in row which might lend some credence to my WAG.

While I can't say that I'm real hot on the idea of shooting that load, now that it has shown issues, but I would also like to know the why behind the dropping lever.

Plan for now is to shoot some j-word loads for a baseline. If I'm feeling rich I might even pick up a box of factory stuff. Then shoot some of the 30gr BL-C2 loads with J-words for another baseline. Next would be the cast loads, checking the bore after each shot to see if I find any clogged up rifling and if I get a lever drop with the next round.

I don't have ready access to headspace gauges so I'm thinking of tipping a spot of the rim forward until they get tight on closing then loading them to see if that does away with the protruding primers. That's kind of a Bubba way of doing things but now I'm on a quest to sort this thing out.

[guicksylver]

Would you like me to send some 311291s Dan

[Alan in Vermont]

Would you like me to send some 311291s Dan

Sure, if you would like some 3118s or 311440s, in trade. I can size them to .309 or .311 and lube them with NRA 50/50, that's the only lube I use.

PM with address on the way.

[guicksylver]

Alan I had a couple of questions check your PM

[popper]

Factory load should blow the shoulder out to the chamber, should be close to proper HS. Adjust your size die to do likewise. Too much HS will allow bolt to be kicked back and start to unlock. The light loads won't push out the primer when HS is correct.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts in regards to the OP;

1. Primer rings are common and nothing to worry about. Not an issue.

2. Your bullet is just fine. 311291 us a good bullet, but a switch to it, won't solve any of your issues.

3. Accuracy will improve if you size them .310 or .311.

4. A well used 94 will unlatch easy when fired and it is not an indication of anything abnormal with the pressure.

5. Ball C and Ball C 2 are difficult powders to ignite and are not the powder of choice in the small 30-30 case with cast bullets. You will be better served with 3031 or 4895.

6. It is not a big trick to push cast bullets in the 30-30, 2,000 to 2,300 fps but it will require an alloy that can those kinds of pressures and RPMs. In my book that is No. 2 or an alloy of similar hardness.

[Alan in Vermont]

Got in some range time yesterday. Show some J-word loads along with quite a few boolit loads.

After removing the big burr that was causing the recessed ring around the firing pin indent in the primers I started seeing pressure signs on the primers. No idea why the change but it happened.

Loads of 30 gr BLC-2 behind Hornady 170 gr J-word and 311407, 178 gr showed flattening of the primers with some slight markings from the bolt face.

27 grs, 3031 behind the boolits showed slightly less primer distortion but still there. Had two varieties of that load, boolits sized .311" & .309", no difference in primer markings or group size.

The three boolit loads occasionally started to unlock the action. The J-word loads did not. I would have expected the J loads to show higher pressure but that would not appear to be the case.

Groups were right around 1 1/2" @ 25 yds with the J-word loads slightly less, maybe by a 1/4" at most. This is not great grouping but it may be the best I can get out of the gun given my eyesight and a very uncomfortable bench shooting position. The benches are not dimensioned properly for comfort. The seat is too high for the benchtop, requiring the shooter to hunch over the gun. It is about impossible to get the gun in the pocket of the shoulder, the angle your upper body has to assume puts the top of the but pretty much on your collarbone. I'm going to fabricate an auxiliary benchtop about 4" thick to get the gun up to a better relationship with the shooters body. I wish I could justify the cost of a side scope mount so I could put a glass sight on this gun for ammo testing purposes. I may hunt up a smaller aperture for bench work, I have one of the big "twilight apertures" in the Williams FP right now, great field sight but that may not be the best for ammo testing either.

Next batch out I will probably try 4064, I have a couple pounds of that, used the last of the 3031 for the ammo I loaded yesterday. Not sure if I can find more right now so I'll try something I have a good supply of. I will also reduce the loads a little to see if I can get rid of the action opening issues.

On the positive side I had zero leading with any of the loads. This is my first foray into faster than hangun velocities and, so far, I'm lovin' it. The 30-30 is the only rifle I have to play with boolits in. My wife and I both have 600 Rems in 6.5 R Mag but there isn't a suitable mold to be found for a 120 gr .265 boolit. My 600 has a 1-10 twist and isn't real fond of anything heavier than a 120 in J-words, plus the short magazines on the 600s doesn't really work well with cruise missles.

This is kinda making me wish I had the $$ for a 35 or 38 cal. lever gun. :(

[popper]

Our ranges must have been designed by the same people. Check your HS (die setup).

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like you're making good progress. Reloder #7 seems to be my go-to powder in the leverguns I like to play with.