Reduced loads with black powder

[anthonytrkr]

I am shooting a 45-90 Sharps with black powder. If a target load is desired do I reduce the powder charge, and seat the boolit deeper in the case, or use a filler to eliminate the air space? My understanding is the black is best with slight compression. To much jump from the case to the lands will reduce accuracy. What's my options?

[Nobade]

Either granular filler or a wad stack. Have to experiment a bit to see what the rifle likes the best. Card stock, cork, LDPE plastic, rubber gasket material, bullet lube, etc. Lots to choose from!

-Nobade

[nwellons]

Grease cookies will eliminate leading and take up case space. If you never have leading problems, they may be too much trouble to make compared to the other options.

[anthonytrkr]

What type of granular filler could I use? Can granular filler, and card stock be used together? How much space can I fill?

[GuzziRider]

One thing you might try would be in a case as large as the 45-90 would be to use 1F granulation. In my 45-110 this makes for a good target load for competition work. With 2F loads the 110 is a bear to shoot but would do a dandy job of killing one. Long range accuracy is better with the 1F loads as well, the 2F shoots fine for hunting ranges but for gong matches the 1F is best. In the case of the 45-90 that may not be the case but it should give you an reduced velocity load with out having to change seating depth, just used enough 1F to give you a full case under your standard length load.

[Nobade]

What type of granular filler could I use? Can granular filler, and card stock be used together? How much space can I fill?

Cream 'o' wheat works well for me. Yes you can use that in conjunction with a wad stack if you feel the need. Fill all the space, keep everything compressed at least a little.

-Nobade

[rockrat]

I use grits, more consistent than corn meal, I believe

[montana_charlie]

I am shooting a 45-90 Sharps with black powder. If a target load is desired do I reduce the powder charge, and seat the boolit deeper in the case, or use a filler to eliminate the air space?
I find the load the rifle shoots best with a 540 grain bullet. I see no need to reduce the charge for target shooting.

I seat the bullet to a given depth, and compress the powder more ... or less ... to get it all under the bullet.
The lightest charge I have used in my 45/90 was 75 grains of Cartridge (like 2F) while the heaviest was 88 grains.
In all cases the bullet seating depth remained the same ... and no filler was required.

You may be making things more difficult than necessary ... unless you are talking about 'gallery loads'.

CM

[Lead pot]

I am shooting a 45-90 Sharps with black powder. If a target load is desired do I reduce the powder charge, and seat the boolit deeper in the case, or use a filler to eliminate the air space? My understanding is the black is best with slight compression. To much jump from the case to the lands will reduce accuracy. What's my options?

If a .45-2.4 is to much recoil then maybe a calibre of a lesser case capacity would be more appropriate like maybe a 38-55, 40-50 1 11/16BN, 40-65 WIN. instead using a filler in a black powder cartridge.

[fcvan]

I used to shoot an 1858 Remington Copy with 30 grains which seated the ball close to flush with the cylinder. Then I read about using corn meal as filler to prevent chain fires. I started using 25 grains and topped with corn meal just enough seat the ball flush. The balls fired with the same authority as the 30 grain load and the bore stayed cleaner. Corn meal is cheaper than powder and being able to fire longer strings between cleaning is a plus.

[Battis]

I use grits on top of a card in my 50-70, or lube pills that I make in an unusual way. I make up a batch of paraffin and beeswax in a double boiler, then pour it while hot into a brass tube that's the same diameter as the 50-70 barrel (plug one end). When it cools I push it out and I now have lube sticks, from which I can cut any thickness that I need. I don't have a pic of the 50-70 tube but this is how I make the pills for my BP revolvers:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020206_zpse5420616.jpg

[bigted]

I see no reason at all not to load any charge you desire in any case with just a couple exceptions. try very hard to leave NO air space in your column and expect a decrease in accuracy until you get to a sweet spot for your rifle. corn meal ,, grits ,, cream-o-wheat ect. will work well to ok as long as you heed the instructions of many...NO AIR POCKETS. load your desired powder charge and then fill to around 1/8th to 1/4 inch past the base of your SEATED boolit...use a compression tool to compress the fill so as to be able to fully seat your boolit to the desired depth.

many things can be added for fill just remember that whatever you decide to use ,,,configure it so there is no pockets of air. also know that with lower amount of powder there seems to be more fouling so you will need to deal with your fouling control.

good luck and report back with your reduced loads and success with them.

[mrcvs]

What percent of the cartridge should contain filler? I have only loaded using straight black powder in numerous rounds, and had good success, except with a .32-40 Winchester 1894. Well, the group is okay, but 4 inches high at 50 yards. I have the ladder sight on a carbine, and cannot go lower. Makes me wonder what you could ever shoot with that firearm, using the ladder sight at all. Am using a 170 grain cast bullet. I was thinking of starting with 25 grains FFg and then using 15 grains of pulverized rice grains. ( I had rice that expired in 2011 and I just pulverized it to the consistency of Cream of Wheat in the blender).

Also, would adding filler tend to lower bullet placement, or cause it to shoot even higher?

This firearm shoots horribly with smokeless powder, and yet it has a good bore.

[rfd]

i think that reduced bp loads might have their place at short/medium distance matches, as long as the rifle likes the load you concoct. we have 3 or 4 annual 200 yard matches where this could simply save on the powder needed for a .45-70/90/110, etc.

perhaps load the case with a reduced bp charge, and then compress the brass with one .030" wad. then use a lube ribbon extruder to lay out a 1/8" band of lube and then use the loaded case mouth to create a 1/8" lube wafer, followed with another .030" wad, then seat the boolit (hand pushed in or die pressed in). the cookie would not only take up space but maybe help with fouling control. sounds reasonable, but there'd be a buncha testing to confirm such a cartridge would be accurate at match distances.

[mrcvs]

I am using grease cookies. For now, I would like to just try filler. For .32-40, would ~25 grains FFg and ~15 grains (such that the load is compressed) of my rice pulverization work?

[country gent]

Iuse cream of wheat for filler in my 45-90 to get down to 45-70 loads, saves on powder and recoil. WHat I did was wieght oit the diffrence in powder charges and make a dipper for that volumne of powder. I then dropped the lighter powder charge into the case a tight fitting .060 napa rubber fiber wad, this keeps powder and filler seperate. the dipper of cream of wheat and a playing card wad then compress to normal depth and seat bullet. Had to experiment a little to get to best accuracy but it is doable and works. As long as the pulverized rice is consistant it should work.

[mrcvs]

Why does powder and filler need to be kept separate with a wad? Couldn't I just load the powder first and follow with the pulverized rice?

[country gent]

Its mainly for consistency reasons. granulated type fillers directly on top of powder grains inter mix some then a little more when compressed. and maybe some more thru vibration or handling but is it always the same amount? Does the mixed powder burn at the same rate? These are negated by seperating the powder and filler with a wad. The wad on top offers protection to the base of the bullet. Keeping everything the exact same as the ones before and after is the key. Powder inter mixed with an inert filler burns diffrently than straight powder.Powders and inert fillers have diffrent densities causing settling issues, the heavier material tends to settle lower and faster than lighter. Another reason I cant prove or disprove is the wads front and back tend to push the fillers out more completly leaving less crud in the barrels. I have noted less fouling issues with the loads using fillers in this manner also. Wether the seperated wads are acting as srapers or the filler is absorbing the fouling I cant say but the effect is noticable and there. I use cream of wheat and it may have a scrupping effect in the solid band also. Another thing to keep in mind, In the food industry when we had to blast clean in production ( where the food was processed/made) rice was used as the medium instead of sand or beads. Not quite as aggressie but did a great job of cleaning to weld or rebuild equipment with no non food stuff conaminations.

[mrcvs]

Any suggestions as to the ratio of filler to black powder?

[rfd]

Any suggestions as to the ratio of filler to black powder?

i'd think that'd depend on the caliber and boolit used, and a fair amount of experimenting to find the ratio of powder to filler that - [1] gives you the amount of recoil reduction you may be seeking, and [2] the load yer rifle likes best, for the most consistent accuracy at the shooting distance in question.

i also wouldn't just dump the filler on top of the powder without a wad separator.

[country gent]

As I said above I ised the wieght of a full power load that was shooting good figured where I wanted to start, inmy case it was 82 grns start 65 reduced. I wieghed out the diffrence with a scales and with a pistol case and made a dipper to throw this wieght of black powder. This gave me the volumne of black powder I was reducing the load by. This dipper was used to throw the charge of filler into the case. ( I may purchase a little dandy type fixed messure to throw filler in the futire). this kept volumne of load and compression very close to start out. Its just like working up anu load pick a starting point and work up. If yopu know what you want and know basic powder charge adjust filler to change compression to tune load if you have a velocity range you want to be in adjust powder as above to get there then filler to fine tune.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I Have some sheets of soft but high melting point wax from wwwmcmaster.com, which I haven't used for this purpose yet. It is made for modeling for investment castings, and it has a higher melting point than beeswax, but is no less soft. Mine is self-adhesive on one side, and could the stuck to card before using the wad-cutter. But it is available without adhesive.

I would be very cautious about using anything in hard granules as a filler. In fact my preference would be for something like kapok, available neatly measured as filter tips for cigarettes. Even nowadays the best books on shotgun technology I know are Sir Gerald Burrard's "The Modern Shotgun" and General Journée's untranslated "Tir des fusils de chasse". They both report rice as a wad material giving rise to dangerous pressures.

You would think, on poking your finger into dry sand, that it would take a lot more of it than of damp sand to stop a bullet. But it takes less. Franklin Mann, writing in 1904, wanted to find out how much a full case, rather than the amount of powder, affected pressure. What more natural than to top up with sand, presumably in a condemned barrel? But these loads tore off the case necks, sending them downrange with the bullet. It seems that under impact the grains lock tightly against one another, and against the case wall.

[rfd]

i try hard not use oil industry resin based lubes or fillers in the cartridges or down the tube.

i think that *anything* in front of that explosive black powder (either as mass weight or some form of restriction) will contribute to the pressure formula. that would include the boolit, the wads, the filler(s) and surely even the resistance of the fit of the boolit within the case mouth (from push-seat loose to fully roll crimped). i would have a far greater concern over a loose, puffy filler, which means "air space" to my thinking.

[rfd]

I Have some sheets of soft but high melting point wax from wwwmcmaster.com, which I haven't used for this purpose yet. It is made for modeling for investment castings, and it has a higher melting point than beeswax, but is no less soft. Mine is self-adhesive on one side, and could the stuck to card before using the wad-cutter. But it is available without adhesive.

I would be very cautious about using anything in hard granules as a filler. In fact my preference would be for something like kapok, available neatly measured as filter tips for cigarettes. Even nowadays the best books on shotgun technology I know are Sir Gerald Burrard's "The Modern Shotgun" and General Journée's untranslated "Tir des fusils de chasse". They both report rice as a wad material giving rise to dangerous pressures.

You would think, on poking your finger into dry sand, that it would take a lot more of it than of damp sand to stop a bullet. But it takes less. Franklin Mann, writing in 1904, wanted to find out how much a full case, rather than the amount of powder, affected pressure. What more natural than to top up with sand, presumably in a condemned barrel? But these loads tore off the case necks, sending them downrange with the bullet. It seems that under impact the grains lock tightly against one another, and against the case wall.

interesting. it sounds like the issue of concern is that the filler is solidifying at the inception of the bp explosion. were those fillers you mentioned - rice and sand - laying directly atop and in contact with the powder column, or partioned off with at least a wad used as a bottom separation of powder and filler?

[Nobade]

I can see sand doing that. It would compact tightly, expand into the neck, and grab it really hard. In fact I would expect it to do what it did. Cream 'o' wheat or farina for those not in the USA doesn't act like that. In fact under high pressure it stops being individual grains and flows together. However, I have never seen it do that in a black powder cartridge. Seen it many times when used with smokeless powder though. Another consideration is the shape of the cartridge. Most black powder cases are either practically straight or gently bottlenecked, the 577/450 being the exception. This shape works considerably better than a sharply bottlenecked design, the Ackleys being the worst. Fired with filler, those will have a hard ring of it left on the inside of the shoulder that is difficult to remove. All that stuff doesn't want to go through the hole, and sure hits the shoulder hard.

-Nobade

[Multigunner]

To make gallery loads for the .45-70 they inserted a thick cardboard tube into the case to reduce capacity.

[BlackpowderSweden]

I made a test once (by misstake) just to se how gas tight seal Cream of wheat would give.
I loaded 15grains of 4F blackpowder, then 2,2cc of Cream of wheat, then 70gn 1F, then a patched ball.
You have to belive me, the fire did not get past the Cream of wheat to ignite the 70gn 1F load!!!
The ball exited at about 700fps by the 4F priming cahrge. Try it your self if you dont belive it...
The Cream of wheat will form a 100% gas-tight solid sealing plug, that turn into a dust cloud when exiting the muzzle, not to interfere with the ball.

[rfd]

I made a test once (by misstake) just to se how gas tight seal Cream of wheat would give.
I loaded 15grains of 4F blackpowder, then 2,2cc of Cream of wheat, then 70gn 1F, then a patched ball.
You have to belive me, the fire did not get past the Cream of wheat to ignite the 70gn 1F load!!!
The ball exited at about 700fps by the 4F priming cahrge. Try it your self if you dont belive it...
The Cream of wheat will form a 100% gas-tight solid sealing plug, that turn into a dust cloud when exiting the muzzle, not to interfere with the ball.

that makes no sense to me at all, and at the same time it's every bit of sense. :veryconfu

you laid down a priming charge separated by a non-powder substance and you expected the 4f to somehow get past the cow and touch off the 1f? i'll assume you used no wads, too.

do this test instead - 50 grains of 1f or 2f, a .030 card wad, compress that a bit, appropriate volume of cow filler to suit the expected oal, push down and firmly seat another .030 card wad over the cow filler, firmly push or press in the boolit.

[Lead pot]

I will say it again, Why not try this. Get a smaller caliber if you don't like the recoil. :)

[KCSO]

The miltary used fibre wads to fill the 45 carbine loads with no problems.

[Gunlaker]

To the original poster, one way to reduce recoil is to use a slower powder. My CSA in .45-90 is a lot more lively with 95gr of FFg than it is with 88gr of Fg. With the Fg I still have more velocity than most .45-70's will have. You can develop loads with excellent accuracy with Fg, you just give up some velocity.

You could also try a good recoil pad. Buffalo Arms sells a really good shoulder pad. It works better than many of the other setups on the market, especially when shooting prone. It even makes my .45-110's reasonably comfortable prone.

Or, as Kurt says, use the it as an excuse to buy a .40-65 or .38-55. You can never have too many single shots :-)

Chris.

[Lead pot]

:) Chris every I get a little older and the rifles I been getting are shooting smaller cases :)

[Gunlaker]

I have been shooting a lot of .32-40 these days :-).

The other approach is the Tollofson weight rifle of course. One of my .45-110's has a 16 lb barrel which takes the felt recoil of the 105gr loads down to .45-70 levels. I'd hate to have to carry it around much, but it sits nicely on the sticks :-)

Chris.

[Lead pot]

I build a 25 pounder two years ago in the .44-100 Rem st and it is a pleasure to shoot.
This year I had a CPA .44-75 Ballard build and it has a .22 interchangeable barrel with it and I been shooting the .22 more :) It's kinda nice to have the .44-75 and the .22 using the same stock and weight rifle with the same feel to practice your off hand shooting in the back yard and the sound of the .22 don't make the neighbors complain about the loud noise the powder rifles make.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

interesting. it sounds like the issue of concern is that the filler is solidifying at the inception of the bp explosion. were those fillers you mentioned - rice and sand - laying directly atop and in contact with the powder column, or partioned off with at least a wad used as a bottom separation of powder and filler?

I am a long way from all those books at the moment, but I think the rice was unpulverised, and separated from both powder and shot by card wads. The sand probably wasn't, but was 3/8in. in thickness in a .32-40 case neck, and would be a 100% load, not likely to intermingle, due to the declared purpose of the experiment.

The cream of wheat stopping the ignition of black powder does not surprise me, although I wouldn't, for example, want to stand further downrange than a 700ft./lb. bullet ought to go as it most likely won't always do it. I wouldn't be surprised to find an occasional low-pressure fireball, igniting outside the muzzle, engulfing the chronograph.

Not removing solidified filler from the case shoulder before reloading could be dangerous. Not so much when loading more of the same, for which you would rather the case were smaller anyway. But forget that and force home an intended 100% load for full power next time, and you could be in real trouble.

I favour cigarette filter-tips - not the cigarette-factory cork tips, but after-market Rizla if they still make them like my large supply from way back, and still use kapok in consistent doses, wrapped in a tissue sleeve which you only burst as it goes in. This is emitted in the form of much shorter scorched pieces, with most of it apparently consumed. Kapok fibres are actually tubular (hence their use in lifejackets etc.) This must surely be closest to what I hope for in a filler, controlling positioning but not the burning space ratio.

[earshot]

Sand as a filler? Seriously? Why would one sandblast the barrel?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It was done to investigate the volumetric effect of powder and airspace in a cartridge, by filling the space with an inert powder. Dr. Mann used a lot of barrels, mostly in a V-rest of his own design, and I expect this was done with one he wouldn't use again for any kind of accuracy tests.