45/70 stalker

[texbiker]

just picked one up. does anyone shoot one of these? has a fast twist 1:15 with a short(compared to my buff class.) so i wonder how it might stabilize 500 grain bullets?
any help would be appreciated.

[Doc Highwall]

The original TD Springfield had a 1-22" twist so you are ok. I cannot comment about your shoulder after you shoot it out of that light gun.

[texbiker]

hey doc,
i plan on trying some of my paper patched 500gr moving a about 1300 in my handi. stout but then i'm 6 ft about 250lbs so i think i can take it.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum. The 45/70 is a classic cartridge with a long and colorful history; there is lots of data around for loading it. Originally the US Army used the 500 grain bullet, but went over to the 405 grain as the heavier bullet was battering the daylights out of the troops especially in the carbine version. I have 3 rifles that shoot 45/70, have tried the 500 grainer-Lyman # 457125 and got rid of it in favor of the 405 Lyman #457124. The recoil (of the bigger bullet), even with the weight of the rifles involved was tough to deal with. The usual MV for the loads is around 1200-1300 fps. As soon as you start upward from that figure, the kick starts getting rougher (on you) and the afternoon starts getting shorter. Unless you enjoy that part of it you will not be too happy. The major mold makers all make a good line of designs to choose from and I would suggest your looking at Saeco, Lyman, Lee and Rcbs to see what they offer in terms of shape, design and weight so that you can make a good choice on what to shoot. There are also many powders to choose from that all do well in the 45/70. LLS

[texbiker]

have some 405 gr around here somewhere. never could get them to group well for me with the buffalo classic.

[Doc Highwall]

Actually the original load was a 405 grain bullet with 70 grains of black powder for the rifle, and when the carbine came out it was to brutal so the powder charge was dropped to 55 grains of black powder for the carbine. The space left by the reduction of the powder charge was taken up by adding a filler I forget if it was a cork material or something else.

The 500 grain 1881 bullet come about because of the same thing the military is experiencing today in Iraq and Afghanistan, in that time frame it was the Indians.

The best book for the 45-70 is the link below.

http://www.amazon.com/Loading-cartridges-original-Springfield-carbine/dp/157579019X

A good read is
.45-70 at Two Miles:
The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

[texbiker]

sandyhook very interesting read. thanks for the info

[JimP.]

my buff classic likes the saeco mould 883 500 gr bullet unsized lee alox lubed with a fiber card on the base of the bullet as it is seated with 32.0 grs of RL-7 for 1368 fps. 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yds. slip on recoil takes the bite out of the 500 gr load.

[BAGTIC]

Why didn't the blackpowder shooters use bullets with better shaped ogives? There was enough technical knowledge of exterior ballistics at the time to show the potential improvement. As long as they were still shooting single shot guns any slight increase in COL would not have mattered and an improved BC would have permitted duplicating existing ballistics with lighter lower recoil powder charges.

[Doc Highwall]

Lyman came out with the Postell spelling ? bullet 457132 for long range shooting a long time ago and it does very good even today.
Yes there are some better grease groove bullets today in 45 caliber then the 457132 but not much better and they still have a somewhat rounded nose.

At black powder muzzle velocities and shooting at 1000 yards with the bullet coming down through the transonic phase a round nose bullet is more stable/accurate.

[Piedmont]

Why didn't the blackpowder shooters use bullets with better shaped ogives? There was enough technical knowledge of exterior ballistics at the time to show the potential improvement. As long as they were still shooting single shot guns any slight increase in COL would not have mattered and an improved BC would have permitted duplicating existing ballistics with lighter lower recoil powder charges.

They were using the best shapes for flight at the velocities they were shooting.

This is why when smokeless came on the scene the vast majority of military rounds used a long round nose. Everyone assumed the best shapes would stay the same, just as you have assumed the best shapes with high velocity smokeless loads would be best with black powder. It took took about two decades before everyone conceded spitzers did better at supersonic speeds.

[Doc Highwall]

But a more rounded nose is better for stability going through the transonic stage.

Check out the nose shapes on the Postel and Creedmoor bullets.
http://brooksmoulds.com/bullets.php

It has to do with the center of gravity and center of pressure on the bullet in flight.