target interpretation

[bigted]

i seem to be getting closer to a conclusion with my blackpowder endeavors...well at least i am getting some repeatable results with a couple of my rifles.

target i am asking about concerns my old marlin [in 38-55] that i had re-lined. this ol hummer really wants to shoot but vertical strings the shots in almost a straight line. [smokless goes into 1 ragged hole so i know its not the rifle]...

rifle spec's...chamber is 2.086 long and the fired case takes a finger seated .380 inch boolit snugly...twist is 1 in 18 factory style...26 inch barrel...head space perfect...no snug places in barrel length...flat crown reminisant of factory crown...sights are full buckhorn rear[marples] and silver blade front[c sharps]. she is a dandy!!!

load is such;

winchester 2.085 inch brass [which is my chamber dimensions].
baco 275 grain .380 inch boolit.
lube is SPG with a nice lube star on barrel end.
.060 inch walters vegi wad.
52 grains GOEX Cartridge powder.
cci 200 large rifle primer.
use the size die [RCBS] to remove flair.
lee factory die for crimp.
compress around 1/2 inch on powder [done with a compression stem in my flair die body].
fouling control is accomplished with 5 long meaningfull breaths DOWN the barrel between shots.

wish i could post a photo of the target [smilie=b: but cant so ill have to describe it to you...

target is around 50 yards at my home ...[its where i dredge out the winners and losers before i take any to the longer range for real trial]...the rifle strings the shots down in direction from the first shot from a clean/dry barrel. the shots are almost touching each other on their downward travel in a almost perfect vertical line. i use the same fouling control that i have discovered werks very well in my other rifles.

so ive thought about trying a primer wad inside the case and under the powder...
using magnum primers...
crimp harder to make a more consistant combustion...
less powder for less compression...

what say yee? i know ive seen a target a few years ago that was posted for education purposes but cant seem to find it. weigh in with thoughts and/or suggestions. THANKS

Ted

[Doc Highwall]

The barrel time/velocity and barrel vibrations are different between the two powder types. You might have found the sweet spot to rest the forend with the smokeless powder but not the black powder.

Are the overall lengths the same and the velocities?

[Chicken Thief]

Is the stringing consistent ie. does the shots make the string grow one at a time?
Maybe foreend problem combined with barrel heating?

[bigted]

couple great ideas...

no the velocity is not the same between the smokless and bp...smokless is running around 1600 fps and honestly dont know how fast the bp is going...whatever 52 grains Cartridge pushing a 270 grain boolit.

as for the forarm...tis a lever action so im not sure about the preassure on the barrel...however the smokless heats up the barrel as fast as the bp and it does not walk...but something to consider.

[Chicken Thief]

Got'cha on the rifle.
Try to remove the forearm and then rest the rifle on the frontband.
I know that the top notch of long range BP shooters says to rest the barrel @ a dollar bill width from the muzzle.
It must be mechanical.

[semtav]

Try the easy things first.
What does switching to a match primer do? BR-2 or GM210M
What does switching wads do? (1 .030 LDPE)
Change the OAL
Brush the inside of a fired case and see if a bullet will slide smoothly in or if their is a slight curl at the mouth.
Are you compressing before or after you install the wad?
Just change one thing and see if the pattern is identical

[Don McDowell]

Fouling out, need to change your lube or run a greasecookie/lubed wad.

[montana_charlie]

What is your fouling control method with that lever rifle?
CM

[RMulhern]

bigted

What other BP rifles do you have??

[Texantothecore]

Most likely it is the lubricant and you probably need more. A grease cookie might be in order.

The problem you are having is that the velocities appear to be decreasing as the barrel closes down on the bullet from the heat of the previous shots. You may want to experiment with different size bullets to.

An interesting project might be to slug your barrel cold and after 15 shots or so slug it again and see if there is any difference when it gets hot. I think you'll find that it is a somewhat smaller caliber.

My rifle shoots well when the barrel is running about 140F which is usually after 14 or 15 shots: I've actually thought seriously of building a barrel heater that would be used to maintain 140F (too much technology). I can actually drive carpet tacks with it at that temperature, but there is some variation in the run up to the working temperature. A lot of black powder shooters feel that the barrel has to be fouled before the barrel works to their satisfaction but I suspect that it is more a matter of barrel heat than fouling.

You might also run a patch down the barrel after each shot and see whether that makes a difference. I consider my black powder guns to be more.....naval guns than rifles and a patch down the barrel is the standard technique for cannons so why not?

You also may find that a cold barrel (hunting) requires a little bit different load than a target load. That is just part of the fun of playing with your cannon.

[country gent]

The 2 piece stocks are very sensitive to bench teqnique "flexing" can be an issue especially with the lighter barrels on lever actions. Try a stack of sand bags up high enough so you can hold the rifles forearm with your hand and brace it into the sand bags to steday the rifle.Barrel harmonics can do wierd things. Might possibly be stress from the relining job. Or in the barrel liner itself causing this. Also Steve Garb and Mike Venturo handloading manual Steve claims the 38-55 with black powder loads shines with pistol primers over the rifle version. Dont know for sure but something to try. Sounds more like a barrel harmonics stress issue than anything else. The big double rifles were zeroed from a post the shooter braced his hand against so point of impact point of aim would be the same as hunting. Pull straight back on the wrist with as little up or down pressure as possible. I would also try blacking that silver front sight with a little carbon from a match. It may be picking up light diffrently and appearing taller. In high power we would always blacken the front sight with a carbide miners torch to remove glare and resulting flires. Maybe make a black hood from Black tape /card board to test this theroy?

[montana_charlie]

I have a question, country gent.
Since Ted's difficulty exists when using black powder (but not smokeless), does that seem to nail the problem down to the differences in 'managing' the effects of that propellant?

CM

[country gent]

Yes and no. while it is black powder that is stringing it is a diffrent set up of pressure curves fouling and velocity also not just fouling. The blacking of the front sight is basically to make it easier to see the same everytime over the day as light angle changes. The diffrent harmonics pressure curves are also a factor that changes from smokeless to Black. Bullet hardness can be affected difrently from smokeless to black powder, black powder seems to swell obturate the bullets more than smokless at times. The suggestion to shoot with hand supported by bags is for consistency with the rifle. Recoil is diffrent between smokeless and black powder thus the reasons for trying to be as consistent as possible with bench teqnique. Velocities are normally lower with black than smokeless and barrel time could be an issue also. Making bench teqnique and follow thru important. Also can again affect the harmonics of the barrel / action. His load looks to be useable and may need some tweaking is all. diffrent powders even between burning rates of smokeless ( let alone smokeless to Black powder) set up diffrent harmonics patterns recoil impulses. These harmonics start before the primer fires with the fall of the hammer and continue thru and slightly after the boolit leaves the barrel. With the lock time of most lever actions / Hammer fired rifles this is an issue too.

[SchuetzenMiester]

I would try cleaning the barrel every shot to eliminate fouling and lube issues and go forward from there.

[montana_charlie]

Yes and no.
Thanks for that long reply. Sounds like you know a lot of stuff.
Which BPCR cartridge have you had the best luck with, and in which action type?

CM

[country gent]

Right now Im working with a pendersoli sharps Long range in 45-70. Replaced sights with a long Range soule and a windgage front. A remington rolling block ( navey Arms) originally in 45-70 but have disassembled it and Have a 38 cal 1-12 twist tapered octogan Green Mountain barrel blank for it and 38-55 Mcphearson reamer from Dave Manson. Wood is from treebone. A Remington Hepburn is on the way from C. Sharps arms in 45-90. A copy of the old palma creedmoors rifles. I also have several No1s .220 swift, 300 win mag. A Martini cadet rebuit to 218 bee. I was a NRA High Power competitor for 20+ years Service rifle and match rifle both. Mainly used M1As but was switching over to ARS when I had to stop. Have a beautiful Model 70 pre 64 course rifle in 243 win. Tubbs stock, Jewel trigger, Hart barrel, warner sights. I was High master across the course and long range both when I had to stop competing, the multiple schlroscis just wouldnt allow me to hump gear and the long days at Perry any more. Routinly ( every couple weeks thru the summer) competed at 200,300, and 600 yds. Several times a summer at 1000yds.
I have had best results with the pendersoli and paper patched boolits so far though all will ussually perform some just take more "playing" than others. Most fun was an old win in 44-40 with black powder. Not super accurate just a fun rifle to plink with. Rolling cans and golf balls around the feild in spring and fall. LOL. I would love a chance to play with a double rifle sometime, always intreaged me alot. Maybe someday Ill run accross one of the pendersolis in 45-70 reasonably priced.
I stopped shooting High Power rifle for a couple reasons. 1st was my children, my wife was killed in a car accident and 3 kids dont allow alot of time for playing. 2nd as stated the MS was becoming an issue for me. I still do everything I did before just not always the same way. Alot on numbness in legs and hands vision is affected balance is affected Im working on disability now.

[SchuetzenMiester]

country gent, Did you shoot any BP at 1000 yards?

[country gent]

Not yet Im hoping to this summer possibly if health permits it, and the Hpburn gets here in time to get loads put together. I would much perfer the 45-90 with 550 Grn+ bullets over the 45-70 for 800,900,1000 yds. I have shot 1000 yds with a model 70 match rifle in 243 win with 107-115 grn vld bullets very successfully. The service rifle M1A/M14 in 308. ( talk about time of flight there) and tried 1 relay once with a friends 300 win mag and 200 grn MKs. Was building an AR10 in 11-150 for 80 grn vlds for my wifes 1000yd rifle when she was killed in a car accident. Is it flat shooting from 200 yds zero to 600 uds is 7 mins up is all. With the 6.5-20 lepould on it If I did my part it would hold 1 1/2" spooting disk at 600fyds :smile: Recoil is almost non existent. But its a 15 Lb rifle also. I really enjoy the long range matches and health permiting this summer it may happen. I am getting things around for it crossticks mats ( probably use my old high power mat and stool). Loads will need to be worked up with shovel fulls of 2 f powder under heavy paper patched boolits barley seated into the cases. Im hoping for around 85 grns or so of powder under the wads grease cookie and boolit. I have 20 test rounds loaded waiting for the rifle to arrive.

[bigted]

very cool with all the thoughts...lets see if I can reply to most with 1 post...

'chicken thief...ill try the removal of the forarm after I do some of the load/fouling changes first.

'sematav...yes I agree with you on doing some simple load experiments before jumping into changing anything with this grand ol marlin.

'don... I do think it has something to do with the fouling as well. I blow 4 times down the barrel which seems to work well with my custom hiwall 38-55 but seems to be lacking with this marlin...sooo after reading another book and hearing it a couple times...ill blow down the barrel 6 or 8 times and try this and also try the wet wipe to see if this brings the vertical to a stop. also I had stopped with the lube wad but may add it back to combine it with the blowtube and see if this does the trick.

'Charlie... for now in my persuit I use the blow-down-barrel with my blowtube for 4 breaths with very good effect on my other rifles.

'rick...my other rifles consist of...custom jap-chester in 38-55 with a #4 Winchester contour GM barrel of 30 inch...Shiloh 45-120 in Hartford style...browning BPCR 45-70...japchester 45-70 hunter model...pedrosoli 45-70 in longrange 34 inch half round barrel...ruger #1 45-70 [not really a bp rifle but it gets a dose every once in awhile...original rem roller in 43 Spanish in very good shape [this with a large chamber that takes .452 inch boolits to fill]...a couple muzzle loaders...think that's it...[for now LOL].

'tex 2 core... id think that your point is good except for this...I run this same boolit in my hiwall custom with a faster 14 inch twist and with the 4 breaths down the barrel it does 1 small ragged hole groups without the vertical string. the only diff is instead of the 30 inch 14 inch twist barrel the marlin is 26 inch with the stock 18 inch twist. so I think that I may have enough lube in the boolit...[at least in the hiwall]...however the marlin does have a nice lube star on the muzzle after 5 shots which indicates plenty of lube [SPG]...correct?

'countrygent...ill def try the blackening of the sight...just may be that the bp is heating that barrel differently then the sp does.

'shuetzen... first welcome to the forum...as you can see there is a wealth of info here including your helpful suggestion so have fun here...I do plan to try swabbing the bore between shots to see if this does the trick.

well I guess this means some more shooting is in the wind...[smilie=b:...DANG I hate that...several suggestions and all sound like they would be helpful so out to the loading room for some loading/shooting to put some of these suggestions to werk.

thanks all and if more comes to mind id really like to hear bout em.

Ted

[w30wcf]

bigted,
I would suggest backing off on the powder charge. Original 38-55 Factory b.p. cartridges were loaded with 46-47 grs of powder, and that was in balloon head cases. A friend who shoots a .38-55 single shot rifle is getting excellent results with 45 grs.

w30wcf

[SchuetzenMiester]

Bigted, Thanks, That is where I always started when working with a problem like that. BE interesting to see how it is resolved. Just about the time you think you have BP cartridge figured out, it gets ya!

country gent, I have never shot a real gun at 1,000 yards, only 45-70 and 45-100. The matches only allowed a rest under your hand at 1,000 when I started. No rests at 800 or 900. No prone x-sticks, but some shot them setting up. I shot back rest. Most shot prone with a sling. Due to cataract implants, not being able to see the targets and recoil of the 550 gr slug over 90 grs of 2 F being a migraine trigger, I have drifted away for LR BP. Now my focus is 200 yd offhand schuetzen shooting.

Back to vertical stringing, my first LR 45-70 would do that over a string of 15 or 20 shots. After looking over my shot records, it was quite predictable. Turned out to be leading in the throat on that rifle collecting fouling and more lead. I was shooting duplex at the time. Way before blow tubes became fashionable.

[SchuetzenMiester]

Bigted, I forgot to mention the first place I learned to start a load was with bullet seating depth. I never shot lever guns, just SS target rifles. Start with it touching the lands and move back a bit at a time up to .025" back off the lands. Whenever I was having trouble with straight BP, I would try a duplex load just to see if the gun would shoot BP. If it would shoot duplex, then back to working on straight BP. I started this when barreling an original action or Shiloh Sharps were the only options ;-)

[Texantothecore]

Ted,

Run this formula and see what happens:

Twist = 150 * Diameter^2 / Length

Not sure it will be a factor but this Greenhill formula may give you some insight.