wanted: information on preengraving a bullet for a fast twist muzzle loader.

[johnson1942]

i and a couple of other shooters have been talking alot lately on preengraved bullets for fasttwist muzzle loaders. i have done some with it but we need to know more. i took a 3 inch piece off of a barrel when the barrel was shortened and took out the lands for 1 and 1/2 inches. i then heated it and plunged it in water to slightly shrink it. with my loading press and a dowel i can push through a lubed cast bullet or a knarred up lubed bullet. the results are a preengraved bullet. then powder, wad and bullet and they shoot very good. i know their are several shooters in calif who do this and maybe several more else where. please give us info and you experience on this type of shooting. you will have several ears and eyes glued to your answers. thanks before hand from all of us.

[rhbrink]

This should be interesting!:coffeecom

RB

[HPT]

I also did this several years ago for 2 guns so that I could shoot a groove dia bullet in a muzzleloader (tried both naked and paper patched bullets and the patched ones shot much better). These bullets had their patches (used pattern paper) "glued on" (50/50 water/white glue) and lubed with moly which allowed them to get rifled without damaging the paper jacket.


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/P2203875_zps00a57fe2.jpg


These I loaded in two different ways in 2 guns that I had (both guns had barrels that I "choke bored" according to instructions in Ned Roberts book about the muzzleloading caplock rifle):



Prerifled:
- turned a piece of barrel into a sizing die for my .44 cal muzzleloader

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_0752_zps56954643.jpg

Rifled at loading:
- made a mechanical bullet starter (looked like a wine bottle corker)for my .50 cal muzzleloader that forced the bullet thru the choked portion of the barrel


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_0751_zpse53419fd.jpg

Accuracy of both methods was equal.

What I liked about the bullets with the "glued on" patch was that you never worried about them coming off

Since that time I have found that bore dia paper patched bullets (not glued) shoot just as good without having to do all the above work. I load these with a wad which prevents the paper from coming off during loading

[johnson1942]

thanks for the input, i may try the glued patch bullet to see how it works.

[rhbrink]

What if you patched the boolit like normal trimmed the patch and sized and then glued the fiber card or wool felt wad to the base of the paperpatch? I'm sure that this is not something that a long range target shooter wants or needs but for the guy hunting it would speed up reloading and give you one thing less to fumble with in the cold and probably dark early morning hours. I'm thinking that when the boolit leaves the barrel and the patch falls off the card or wad would naturally go with it?

RB

[HPT]

In regards to the glued on Paper patch bullet - After the patch dried (dried in a 200 degree oven for 20 min) I cut it flush with the base of the bullet then sprayed it with Moly. The pattern paper used is what women use to make clothes patterns. It's real thin but once glued real strong. 2 layers with glue adds .006" to bullet dia. I had Dave Farmer at Hoch Molds make me a nose pour bullet mold that produced a .506 dia pure lead grooved bullet that after patching measured .512" which is the same as both my groove dia (was a green mountain 1:28 barrel) and the diameter of my starter. The entire bullet fit into the starter, then the starter was placed over the barrel and locked in position by 2 pins that locked the starter to the barrel

For hunting with the .50 cal glued on patch bullet I didn't use a wad. In preparation I would unscrew the breechplug and run a few thru the clean barrel(starting them with the mechanical starter) to prerifle them. These I placed in a TC speed loader (the red one with a built in plunger).

[Good Cheer]

I hope more folks step up on the thread. I too have a rifle that I pre-rifle bullets for (Ed Rayl .40 bore).
And, have just started back to trying to develop paper patched for it using a NEI .393" 240 grain plain base with an elliptical blunt nose.

These pre-engraved work well but I'd kinda like a little lighter weight paper patch if'n it'll behave.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/40GPR_310GRFP_70FFg_zps0fa80dcb.jpg
As you can see from the rifling on the unfired bullet, the barrel has narrow lands and hence it will take plenty of expansion to fill the bore. We'll see how paper patching works out.

[johnson1942]

im really enjoying the input please keep it comming, thanks

[John Taylor]

I have built a few over the years. I take about 2" of the barrel and turn it down so the wall thickness is about .040" and then press it into a piece of steel that has been bored .005" smaller than the OD. Then cut threads to fit the loading press and bore out the rifling for the length of the bullet and taper bore the rifling. When the bullet is shoved through it is small enough for easy loading.

[M-Tecs]

I have built a few over the years. I take about 2" of the barrel and turn it down so the wall thickness is about .040" and then press it into a piece of steel that has been bored .005" smaller than the OD. Then cut threads to fit the loading press and bore out the rifling for the length of the bullet and taper bore the rifling. When the bullet is shoved through it is small enough for easy loading.

John

Thats a very elegant solution. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!!!!!!!!

[johnson1942]

to john talyor, does that make the the bullet a fraction smaller? would packing the stub with that powder that prevents scaleing and sealing both ends with brass dowells and heating to a soft red and plungeing into water to shrink the stub do the same? thanks for your post.

[ResearchPress]

Looking at Good Cheer's engraved bullet, does not the process add deformation to the bullet and increase drag? It looks to have been per-engraved by going through base first: would it work better nose first?

What advantage does the pre-engraving give? If an alloy suitable for the rifling depth is used with a bore sized muzzle loaded bullet, upon firing will it not expand to fit the rifling before moving and eliminate the deformation at the grease grooves as pictured in the above? William Metford experimenting in the 19thC established that the bullets he used expanded before moving.

David

[451 Pete]

Johnson ,
The idea of a pre-engraved bullet is not a new one. However as David has mentioned above a properly sized bullet made of a soft lead will expand in the bore to take the rifling upon firing. This size needs to be the land to land measurement not the groove measurement for fitment to the bore to provide best accuracy. Accuracy comes from the base of the bullet, not the nose. Any gas that is allowed to escape from a defective base or nick in the crown of the rifles muzzle will impart a wobble or yawl to the bullet on exiting the barrel and ruin accuracy. This is why making the most perfect base with no flaws or imperfections is important and in many cases to achieve this a nose pour bullet mold is used instead of a base pour mold.
A false muzzle is not really ment to pre -engrave a bullet but is more so ment to perfectly align the bullet the the axis of the bore and to provide a means to wipe and clean that will not allow any damage to the crown at the muzzle. The false muzzle is made by first drilling alignment pins and then cutting the piece off and then honing a lead in to the rifling. This keeps the rifling lands and grooves in perfect alignment between the false muzzle and rifle barrel when in use. 6482064821

This is the correct fit of the bullet. Notice it is a slip fit that will not fall thru but will load with just the weight of a ram rod. 648246482564826

Hope this helps .... Pete

[Good Cheer]

Looking at Good Cheer's engraved bullet, does not the process add deformation to the bullet and increase drag? It looks to have been per-engraved by going through base first: would it work better nose first?

What advantage does the pre-engraving give? If an alloy suitable for the rifling depth is used with a bore sized muzzle loaded bullet, upon firing will it not expand to fit the rifling before moving and eliminate the deformation at the grease grooves as pictured in the above? William Metford experimenting in the 19thC established that the bullets he used expanded before moving.

David

Yes, it is engraved by passing through the die base first. I use a ram shaped to the nose. Don't have to. Just thought I'd give it a try to preserve the sanctity of the base geometry.

The idea behind pre-engraving is basically that the amount of expansion needed to seal the bore is minimized. I am very tempted to have a mold cut to optimize the utility of the method; i.e., a design with very narrow groove diameter lands and relatively large lube grooves.
By the way, as previously pointed out, my .40 bore barrel has very narrow lands, a characteristic intended to optimize it's use with pre-engraved bullets. That does of course tend to maximize the amount of expansion needed to seal the bore.

[Nobade]

John Taylor, I like your solution! I have tried using a chunk of barrel before but the boolit was still too big to load easily. I am going to have to try your method. I have been wanting to build a boolit firing 22 cal. muzzle loader to see if it would work, this may be the key to it!

Years ago, before inline muzzle loaders were available, a guy got our shop to build him a smokeless powder muzzle loader on a Ruger #1. And he wanted to use jacketed bullets in it. So we built him a die to pre rifle the bullets, and quickly learned you can't swage the grooves into them or you will push the core out the front of the jacket. So the solution was to make the die in two pieces. The first part was barely over bullet diameter, to align it. The second was a chunk of rifle barrel faced off in the lathe so it had a razor sharp edge. This was hardened so it would last. In the end of the first section we had to add some clearance for the chips to build up in. This die worked well, and would cut nice pretty curls off the bullets and allow them to be loaded.

I don't know that this will help much with black powder rifles, since as has been noted if the alloy is correct the boolit seals the bore before it moves anyway. But it possibly would allow firing much harder boolits and of course works with smokeless muzzle loaders like the Savage and others.

-Nobade

[johnson1942]

im glad their is input to this question. i find that bullets with tin in them go down too hard unless the preengraver is shrunk. pure lead goes down real easy if not shrunk. i found a site on the internet recently that made modern rifle inline and sold a device with them to preengrave modern type bullets. i forgot to write the name of the site down . the price of the package was way more than i could afford, thats probably why i didnt write the name down. i think their is more preengraveing going on out their than one may at first think. thanks every one for the input

[John Taylor]

to john talyor, does that make the the bullet a fraction smaller? would packing the stub with that powder that prevents scaleing and sealing both ends with brass dowells and heating to a soft red and plungeing into water to shrink the stub do the same? thanks for your post.

Yes the bullet is a bit smaller. I came up with the idea over 30 years ago when I was making "inlines" out of old H&R shotguns. I would take the lug off the old barrel and silver solder it onto a new muzzle loading barrel. The breach was set up for a 209 primer and had the ejector lengthened so it would kick out the spent primer when opened. I tried a few fast twist barrels in 54 caliber and they shot better with the engraved bullets. One customer said he could hit a paper plate at 200 yards every shot. One customer, a professional guide, made a kill at 400 yards. I quit making the rifles when Idaho changed the law and would not allow 209 primers for the primitive hunt.
Some metals shrink and some expand when heated and quenched. It would be hard to get an accurate measurement on how much the metal would move, or if it would deform. Welders anti spatter spray may keep it from forming scale. If you heat the steel to red with brass plugs you may end up with the brass brazed to the steel.

[johnson1942]

ill stick to 550 degrees in the oven as ive done that before, then a plunge. worked on two other ones without any harm. i learned the shrinking process in the shipyards in seattle in the 60/s. again thanks for all the input.