Can a .45ACP bullet be used with a .410?

[Big_Blue]

Pardon me on two points: 1) I wasn't sure which sub-forum to post this question, 2) I just ordered my Lyman Bullet Casting Handbook, so if my answer is there just tell me what page to look at when the handbook comes in.

I have a Taurus Judge which shoots both .45LC and 2.5" .410 shells. I will be casting and loading my own .45LCs. I will also be casting and loading .45ACPs for a Colt Officers ACP I also own. Since the .410 shells are very expensive, I was planning to get a MEC 600 Jr and begin loading my own. I was wondering if I could use the .45ACP bullets I'll be casting for my Colt instead of the standard 00 or 000 shot for the .410.

As an alternative, I was planning to buy the Lee 00 or 000 shot molds, but I thought it might be easier just to use the same bullets I'll be casting for my Colt.

I searched the forum and came up with two interesting theads which gave me a lot to think about, but did not answer my specific question. The two threads were:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?20473-Need-Help-Input-for-Custom-410-Wad-Slug-Mold-Design&p=228333&viewfull=1#post228333

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158740-Here-s-a-treat-for-410-lovers

My question concerns only the use of these shells as practice rounds. My home defense rounds will be commerically purchased.

[Sweetpea]

Interesting question concerning the judge.

Too much weight to the boolit, and it won't fit in the shell.

I'm sure others will get more advanced in their answers.

[Springfield]

Maybe I am mis-reading it but why would you want to put some 45 acp bullets in a 410 shell when the gun already takes 45 Colt cartridges?

[runfiverun]

so that the boolits don't have to travel about 4 feet before getting to the cylinder throats.
you have to measure stuff to see if it will fit.
measure the gun
the boolits
the brass case thickness.
you will have your answer.

[Big_Blue]

Maybe I am mis-reading it but why would you want to put some 45 acp bullets in a 410 shell when the gun already takes 45 Colt cartridges?

Good question. When I realized how expensive .410 shells were, I decided to load my own. I found that Lee had a mold for #00 and #000 shot, but that the cost of those molds ($63) were 50% higher than the cost of my .45ACP molds ($40). That got me to wondering if I couldn't simply use my .45ACP molds to produce slugs for the 410. I did a little arithmetic and found that the .410 #00 loads were 215 grains which compared nicely to the .45ACP's 230 grain weight. I figured the slightly under powered 230 grain projectile wouldn't cause a safety problem and since I was only planning to use them for range use I thought it worth asking about on the board.

Getting back to your question, though, I don't know. I just figured the .410 load would have a different feel and that I should practice with it as well as with the .45LCs.

[Big_Blue]

so that the boolits don't have to travel about 4 feet before getting to the cylinder throats.
you have to measure stuff to see if it will fit.
measure the gun
the boolits
the brass case thickness.
you will have your answer.

I'm still reading, but if I'm not mistaken the same bullets I cast for my .45ACP are used with my .45LC. If that is true, then the width of the bullet won't be a problem for the gun, providing it will fit inside the husk, and provided the loaded husk will fit inside the cylinder.

If this is all true, then I'm left with two remaining issues: shell length and powder charge.

I should be able to measure whether or not the bullet fits inside the standard .410 husk after the powder and wad have been added. It isn't clear to me if I need to be concerned about the crimp style. I read a bit on two posts (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158740-Here-s-a-treat-for-410-lovers and http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?20473-Need-Help-Input-for-Custom-410-Wad-Slug-Mold-Design&highlight=410) which make me think it may have an impact.

As for the powder charge, I just planned to stay with the standard #00 load and not worry about figuring out what additional grains I might need to keep the fps up. Since these are for range use I figured I'd just tolerate the slower speed of the 230 grain bullets as compared with the 215 grain shot.

[runfiverun]

you might be going a different route if the 45 fits the barrel, the wad is gonna be a different complication.
you'll need to think about the 45 boolit as a slug and use a wad column and not a shot type wad.
if you use brass cases you'll need to trick the case into thinking it is the same size as a 45 colt case with a filler of some sort.

like I said sit down and measure.
then think about what you are trying to do here.

[DLCTEX]

I don't think you will be able to make the 45 boolits work in the 410 hull due to the thickness of the plastic . Brass cases will probably do it, but I would want to know if the result will be the improvement you are looking for before buying too many of them.

[Down South]

I have a Judge and a few years ago I thought about making some long brass cases formed from 444 or maybe it was 460 S&W. I don't remember all of the details now since this was a few years ago and I dropped the project.
What I did discover is the throats of the Judge are long being designed to closer fit the 45 Colt cartridge. A 460 case would not go all the way into the cylinder and bottom out on the throat mouth.
What I also discovered was the bore of the revolver was way oversize. If I remember correctly it was like .010" over what a normal 45 revolver should be which explained why my factory 45 Colt bullets would key hole at 25 yds.
The 410 shells fit inside the throats of the revolver and if I remember correctly, the throats were oversize for a normal sized 45 boolit. Probably designed this way for easier extraction of 410 shot shells.
I am trying to go from memory on all of this and I tend to not remember details years gone by as well as I once did. But I did drop the project due to over size bore. I thought about reaming the cylinder throats out close to the end of the cylinder but the large bore of the barrel and not knowing how this may affect firing shot shells in the revolver after boring caused me to discontinue the project.
My Judge's main job was being my tractor gun that I shot rats with when bush hogging my pastures.

Now, back to your idea. It might work but I would suggest that you slug the bore if you want the 45 boolit to shoot accurate.
I don't think there is going to be enough room for you to put a 45 slug inside a 410 shot shell and have it chamber. As I said, the throats of the Judge are long and I don't think that the nose of the shot shell with a 45 boolit in it will go past the chamber mouth. It would be easy enough to test though but if it does chamber, it will be way undersized for the bore.
If you are just wanting to be able to shoot it such as a buckshot ball, I think you will have to size it way down. I don't remember the dimensions of 00 Buckshot but it's smaller than a 45 slug.

If you do that, you are going to have to have a special wad that would take up the space between the powder charge and the bottom of the boolit that would keep the boolit out to the end of the shot shell case and have enough room to crimp.
A 44 boolit might work.

Just my .02 but good luck.

[rockshooter]

That actually was an interesting question. I measured the OD of some brass .410 shells and found .460 so considering a ID of about .440, a .452 boolet probably wouldn't fit. I suspect that plastic hulls, while more stretchable, would be too thick.
Loren

[Big_Blue]

Okay. Thanks for the feedback. I learned a lot.

Looks like there's a MEC Jr 600 Mk5 in my future, plus a set of #00 or #000 molds.

[NVScouter]

My Dad's Judge is fairly sloppy so I load him as cast .455 soft boolits. I tried the same boolit fairly hard around 15BHN and it didnt shoot well. I think the soft boolits are able to bump up a bit more for less blow by.

The 45/410 revolver will never match your Colt. Its meant for point and shoot.

[mikeym1a]

My Dad's Judge is fairly sloppy so I load him as cast .455 soft boolits. I tried the same boolit fairly hard around 15BHN and it didnt shoot well. I think the soft boolits are able to bump up a bit more for less blow by.

The 45/410 revolver will never match your Colt. Its meant for point and shoot.

What was the bore of the barrel? Since this is about cast boolits, how about a heel-based boolit of bore dimension? Or maybe I mis-read.....

[Dale53]

I do not have a Judge nor the Smith version. However, I do have some experience with a TC Contender in .45 Colt/.410 Shotgun. I bought it for the shotgun chamber. It will NOT shoot the .45 Colt with any accuracy (I didn't exhaust every possible way to load it but was early discouraged by the total lack of performance). I was not disappointed, tho', because I bought it for the .410 possibilities. The .410 shotgun patterned as well at 25 yards as a full length shotgun. That was quite surprising to me, but it did and does. There are many uses for a short .410 and I have tried a number of them with a degree of success (including the low house, station 1 on the skeet field:D).

Dale53

[eljefe]

What about a double cavity round ball mould? Most of the
410 buckshot loads only hold three or four projectiles...Lee
makes round ball moulds that should be close to double o
buck diameter. I cast .380 round ball for my Colt Navies,
and can do 100 PDQ.

[turtlezx]

dale
shooting doubles on the skeet field must be tough with the TC??

[jblee10]

When I see a question like this I wonder why they just don't buy some 454 Casull ammo and shoot it.
SERIOUSLY THOUGH! DO NOT SHOOT CASULL AMMO FROM THE JUDGE!!!!!!!!!!!
Although, there would be less bullet jump!


edited: why the hell does anyone buy a judge anyway??

[Down South]

454 will not fit the Judge. As I stated in a post above the Judge has throats set for a 45 Colt cartridge.

[Shiloh]

Just curious, but what is the OD of a .410 shell?? Does the Taurus Judge fire .45 ACP wth moon clips or .45 Auto-Rim??

Shiloh

[Hickory]

A friend of mine tried all of the above, plus using the 454 Casuall
and the 460 S&W along with some things not mentioned.
End result; the 410 shotshell with slugs shot the best

addendum, the 454 and the 460 S&W were reloads and at a safe level.

[Down South]

Just curious, but what is the OD of a .410 shell?? Does the Taurus Judge fire .45 ACP wth moon clips or .45 Auto-Rim??

ShilohIt fires the 45 Colt. Someone else can answer the question about the OD of a 410 Shot shell.


addendum, the 454 and the 460 S&W were reloads and at a safe level.
If I remember correctly, If your friend didn't do serious trimming of the brass, it would not have chambered.

[Tonto]

How about a 41 mag style cast bullet? Lee has a cheap version of that don't they? Coupled with the wad the OD of that package might fit inside a 410 hull. Or figure out what will fit and find a design you could squeeze down via a sizer. Must be someone of there who has tried.

[jackmanuk]

I hear a 357 round fits snug in a a 410 plastic wad

[Big_Blue]

Just curious, but what is the OD of a .410 shell?? Does the Taurus Judge fire .45 ACP wth moon clips or .45 Auto-Rim??

Shiloh
.410 OD is 115.
My Judge fires .45LC.
There is a model of Judge which fires .454 Casull as well as .45LC.

[Pilgrim]

Shot a few .410 "buckshot" loads out of my Citori just for giggles. I loaded 3 ea. .375 round balls (store bought for my .36 navy repro) in a standard .410 one piece wad. I used standard .410 3/4 oz. load data. IIRC it printed all 3 of 'em in about 6" @ 25 yds. I only loaded 3 or four of 'em as an experiment, and I don't recall any adverse reaction in the test.

[9.3X62AL]

No "Judges" here. I have 3" 410 bore shotguns, and a Ruger 45 Colt BisHawk. Apples and oranges, AFAIC. The 870 x 410 uses #9 shot, and does a fair job on doves and quail to 35 yards or so w/full choke. The BisHawk has more reach, and shoots 200-325 grain boolits very well. I don't mix shotshells and metallic cartridges in the same platform, and have been known to carry both afield at the same time. Coyotes known very well how far a shotgun can reach; so do crows. They stay 17 feet outside of shotshell range religiously, so a revolver often comes along while shotgunning. The closest I've come to the sorts of experiments the folks in this thread have tried was factory rifled slugs from the 410 some years back. They shot OK, but were and are cost-prohibitive. 45 Colt reloads cost a lot less, and are more powerful and accurate at a given distance from the firing point.

[Down South]

.410 OD is 115.
My Judge fires .45LC.
There is a model of Judge which fires .454 Casull as well as .45LC.
Must be the newer 3" chamber model that will take the 454 Casull. They had been advertising them for a while before I bought mine. But they never had started selling them when I bought the 2-1/2 chambered model. I would have bought the 3" chamber if it had been available.
It makes no difference to me now. Mine sits in the safe most of the time. The only time I strap it on is when I'm hooking up the bush hog to my tractor. It kills rats just fine.

[justing]

.357 rounds will fit into the hull of a 410, i have thought of loading some of them bad boys up but never gotten around to it, let me know how it goes.

[oldtoolsniper]

I have a Mec 600 and I load for mine. Shells here are $17.99 and you get the choice of 8 shot or 8 shot. As to why I have one they are fun to shoot and I make multiple trips to South Dakota each year to hunt. I am at 11 rattle snakes with it so far. A lot cheaper than one vet bill.

When I load buckshot I use cast .330 balls if I recall correctly. You have to hand stack them so you really don't need a Mec for that. Also just figure out the ball size you want and get a double mold. Way cheaper and you won't be shooting hundreds of shells so there is no need to cast 20 at a time.

Reloading is the best way to go for the .410 or the 10 gauge. I am not so sure on the other gauges cost wise. Tailor fitting a load to your gun is another matter entirely.

I shoot .45lc or .410, I have not tried slugs or boolits in a .410 shell for the same reason I don't load shot in my .45lc cases. Not sure why in that particular gun you would want to. You already have both.

I really enjoy shooting glue Boolits with it. There are glue sticks out there you can slide in the case and cut off with no casting, they fit perfect. Take an empty .45lc case to the craft store for fitting. Find the right size, slide em in, slice em off, add a primer to the, case and bang away. That is if you have primers to spare!:-)

[BAGTIC]

Never heard of a 'Judge' that fires a .454 Casull and really question it as the Casull pressures are far too high for a revolver with a frame the size of the Judge.

What length .410 is your Judge designed to fire?

Best approach might be to use trimmed 460, 444, 30-40, 303, 356, or 307 brass cases. Lots of people have loaded brass cased 410's for use in shotguns especially with heavy weight slugs

[snuffy]

Ever hear of a gas-check 45 colt boolit? Yes, they do make them.

http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-c452-300-rf.html

I'm sure there's Lyman and RCBS molds available as well.

Ever hear of the mag-tech all brass shotshells? Also available;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/151679/magtech-shotshell-hulls-410-bore-2-1-2-brass-box-of-25

Now, just lube & size but leave the gas check off the colt boolit. You'll find the gas check shank will slip into the mouth of the .410 brass case! VIOLA, you have a shell the will fit in a 2.5 inch chambered judge/contender, or Comanche SS. I don't know if you could crimp it in, I didn't try it.

I just used a lite charge of I think it was unique and no other wad or filler. Firearm was a Comanche single shot 45/.410. The bullet fit right into the chamber,(3"), and it fired about like using a 2.5 inch shotshell. Bullet hit point forward, stabilized @ 25 yards.

The Comanche has a thread covering shroud, and a shotshell choke that is straight rifled to stop rotation on shotshell loads. I shot it with the thread covering shroud in place. If you're serious about doing something like this, here's one way.

[9.3X62AL]

Reloading is the best way to go for the .410 or the 10 gauge. I am not so sure on the other gauges cost wise. Tailor fitting a load to your gun is another matter entirely.

With very few exceptions, reloading ANY shotshell in any bore is both cost- and performance-effective.

[trapper9260]

With very few exceptions, reloading ANY shotshell in any bore is both cost- and performance-effective.

Yes it is and you will always have the load you want that some that you can not buy for what you want.