Trapdoors and Black Powder

[Timberlake]

Hey folks, this is Timberlake and I'm new here but I recognize some old names I see posted.

From this esteemed group I'd like some opinions on which bullet seems to work best for you all in your Trapdoor rifles. My current load is 64 grns of Swiss 1.5 with a .06 LDPE and an NEI 500 1881 at 25:1, one of the last Walt made. Velocity runs to 1245fps, sd is 4. Shoots well to 800 yds but falls apart at 900 and 1,000 yds. Did I say it leads badly?

My rifle has be "upgraded" from junk (fair (-) bore) to a long range model, 3 groove and 1:22". Vernier rear sight mounted off tang and a aperature front. I recently went 13/15 at 800, 9/15 at 900 and 5/15 at 1,000 yds. Something is happening from 800 to 1,000 yds.

Thanks,
TL

[Buckshot]

...........I'm not a competitive LR shooter and have zero experience beyond 600 yards. The most our range offers is 200 meters. It may or may not be a stability issue. At the Sandy Hook trials in the late 1870's the Trapdoor did well to 3400 yards (boolits point on, groups a bit largish :D) but that was the reason for the gubmint going to the 500 gr slug. I'm thinking they MAY have used an 18" twist for that?

However, the British using muzzle loaders routinely shot to 1000 yards in their match's using slugs of 500 to 540grs commonly, and their twists were of 20".

.............Buckshot

[Timberlake]

Buckshot,

Thanks for the reply. I'm familiar with the 1879 Sandy Hook Trials and you are right, the Trapdoor used was in 45-80 (2.4) and used the 500 grn Gov't bullet. The rifle also had a 18' twist. http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm
Now, can I get around my lack of twist by going to a higher velocity? Some of my folks say yes, some say no. I have shot these bullets (500gr NEI) to over 1300 but not at distance. I'm really looking for somebody who's been down that road and I know you guys are out there. I promise not to compete unless you live within 2,500 miles of the great state of Iowa.

TL

[powderburnerr]

Timberlake ,
do you suppose you are going transonic at 800? try going below 1200 and see if they work better. just a thought....... Dean

[waksupi]

Timberlake, it sounds like you have an undersized bullet, and maybe too hard. My Sharps shoots best at the 1100fps range.

[Timberlake]

Dean, Waksupi,

Thanks for the replies.

One thing I've not done is load down or go to softer lead melt. I've got a bunch of the 25:1 mix and do plan on going to 30:1 later. I suspect that 55 grns of Swiss 1.5 should get me at, or below 1150, dunno, have to try. The bullet is lubrisized to .460 (honed out Lyman .459). The thing that may catch me up is that I can only get 210 pts out of my vernier sight. At the lower velocity I'd be around 21 points at 200 yds. Barrel time is a killer for a Trapdoor.

Dean, remember those two cakes of Beeswax I got from you at Quigley in 2004? Why is that stuff so dark? Just made up some more lube today using the stuff, funny color.....even with the Lubegard.

I'll get back with some results. Have a Mid Range shoot in Ackley, Iowa in a couple of weeks that takes me to 600 yds. I'll try the lower velocity but I've got to stick to the 25:1 for the rest of the year. Got way too much made ahead and it's too damn hot to redo things.

TL

[powderburnerr]

the wax was from old combs or was it from army bees ? I forgot now ,

it is from old hives but it works as well as the yellow stuff in my lube the coloring helped us to name the stuff ,we call it snake s**t but it sure works in the 110 with heavy charges.................. Dean

[Wayne Smith]

If it leads badly now going to a higher velocity will only make that worse. I'm not sure going from 25/1 to a 30/1 mix will change much, Sharps was originally using a 16/1 mix. I'm assuming you've slugged your bore and know that your bullet fits?

I don't shoot long range, but it seems to me if you fix your leading problem that's likely to solve much of the accuracy problem?

[Larry Gibson]

Timberlake

My BP rifle of choice is the TD, must be my Army upbringing. My target model also has an aperture front and off tang vernier rear sight. It has been restocked and is similar to the "Marksman" style. I use a Rapine 460500 which is the M81 bullet also.

Some have recommended going softer in alloy and slower in velocity. I went the other way based on research into tests conducted by Springfield and Frankford Arsenals. They conducted considerable tests, probably far more than we will ever do, and found the M81 bullet cast of 1-16 alloy was as accurate as most competitive civilian cartridges out to 1000 yards. Using the Rapine M81 bullet cast in 1-16 alloy has proven accurate to, indeed, 1000 yards.

With the 1-16 alloy the Rapine mold drops the bullet at .4615". I also honed a sizer out to .4615 so the bullet is just lubed and not sized. My TD barrel is a .461 so the bullet fits without depending on "bumping up". I make own lube using 5 parts beeswax to 6 parts Virgin Olive Oil. I have no leading what so ever.

For straight BP load I use Goex FFFG, 70 gr by weight thrown directly into a neck sized R-P case (a .459 expander is used) that has the flash hole drilled per Wolf and Fed 215 primers. A compression die is used to compress the powder to just kiss the base of the bullet (no wad is used) when the bullet is seated so the case mouth covers half of the front driving band. A taper crimp die is used only to straighten the flair out of the case mouth, not crimped into bullet. Seated thus the lead just engraves the driving band when the bullet is seated. The velocity is 1280 fps. This is a 2 MOA load through about 15 shots in low humidity without the use of a blow tube or wiping. Ialso use Goex Cartridge with equal accuracy but the velocity runs about 40-50 fps less.

If your bullet is .460 and cast with 1-25 then it should bump up to seal the bore. With the mention of leading and no mention of the type of lube I’m wondering if your lube is not doing the trick and failing I’ve no experience with the Swiss powders yet so I can't comment. You say the bore is fair (-) so that also might be the cause of the leading. Did you clean the bore between relays? If so, was the leading present at all of the cleanings? If didn't clean between relays then maybe it was the accumulation of leading that finally got you at 900 and 1000 yards. You might give some thought to fire lapping the bore. I have seen some rough bores that leaded polish up to where leading was minimal and accuracy much improved.

It all could be something as simple as your bullet is just not doing well coming down subsonic. Just some thoughts from another TD shooter.

Larry Gibson

[powderburnerr]

Timberlake ,I think I have some Rapine 500gn bullets cast from 16 to one I'll send you some if you want to try them , dunno the size but do know the alloy. leading is usually a sign of lube problems . I'd send you a stick of our stuff to try if you like .its made of the dark wax and is a good working lube ,
{that will relieve concerns about the wax if any} a lot of the dark wax when cleaned was heated for a long time to just under bubbling to remove impuritys which hardens it a bit more than low heat slow melting but seems to help the lube consistancy a bit. e-mail me if you have any intrest.
zb70045@ctnis.com
.............. Dean

[Timberlake]

Hey folks, thanks for the help. Seems to me the preponderance of offerings seem to point to 16:1 lead. Now, if I figured right, that is a 93.75lbs lead to 6.25 lbs tin. So I may just go there, sooner rather than later.

The velocity I wanted to achieve was between 1280-1315 for the 500 grn NEI 1881 bullet (Spence Wolf Rec). 66 grns of Swiss 1.5 does it nicely. The lube I've been using is basically Emmert's fortified with 10% Lubegard. COAL is 2.80. I could come out a bit to touch rifling. Lately I've been using the Lewis Lead Removing tool. Works great! But it takes all the strength I can muster to pull it through the bore the first time.

My other Trapdoor (M79 Sights) has a beautiful bore. It also leads up, but not as bad as the LR model. I am going to switch stocks and make the good bore rifle the LR model. The front sight is nothing more than Pedersoli front globe milled out to attach directly over the existing stud. No other mod's are necessary. Both of these rifles have .461 bores.

Thanks again for the help. Dean, check your e-mail, I'm coming after those bullets.

TL

[drinks]

TL;
I hate BP, but shoot the .45 -70, I use LBT soft blue lube and gas checks on everything from 220gr to 500gr, wws with 1%Tin .
Have no leading.
If the LBT blue does not do for BP, a friend who is a BP lover from way back, has settled on a 50-50 mix of beeswax and peanut oil, says it not only shoots good, but smells good, too.
Don

[longhorn]

Since the bullets probably aren't too hard at 25:1, I'd figure it's a lube problem. Try a commercial lube, Black Magic or SPG, or the Emmert's without the LubeGuard. I use Black Magic and wheelweights (gasp!--BPCR heresy) and only see a few little flakes of leading when really heating up the barrel.