Loose gaschecks (related to quenching)

[Patrick L]

OK, I took my quenched .310 bulets and ran them thru a .311 sizing die to lube and seat the Hornady GCs. Now I notice the GCs are loose. They spin on the base of the bullet. They seem to be staying on, but as I say are spinning. What now ?

I thought maybe putting my .310 die back in and adjusting the depth screw to just run them in only far enough to tighten the crimp of the GC and not size (and therefore soften) the bullet itself

[StarMetal]

Try annealing your gaschecks. Just heat them up by some mean, torch, stove, some guys put them in a pipe with end cap and a piece of paper to burn off the oxygen to keep them from being black, etc. See if they fit better then. I anneal my gaschecks whether the fit tight or not. Are you sure the gascheck shank on your bullet isn't undersized?

Joe

[Patrick L]

StarMetal,

I don't think the shank is undersize. I've sized thousands of these bullets from this mold to .309 and.310 and the checks are all tight. I think I'll try sizing a few unhardened bullets to .311 and see if the GC is loose on that.

Why anneal the GC ? What purpose does that serve ? That would make them softer, correct ?

[StarMetal]

When you size an unannealed check it springs back more then one that was anneals. Actually when unannealed and you seat the bullet, the check actually makes the case neck bigger, thus your bullet isn't held as tight. Next mike you gascheck, then mike the bullet ahead of the gascheck and see if the check isn't larger.

Joe

[Patrick L]

I see. How does the bullet hardness effect this. In other words, how come I've never experienced this with my unhardened bullets ? These heat/quench bullets are my first attempt at hardening bullets and my first time experiencing loose gaschecks.

Also, do you think I would have this problem if I lubesized and gaschecked my bullets right away (ie before they reach full hardness ?) Several people have recommended doing that, like within an hour of quenching.

Thanks for all your help. You and others on this forum have proven to be a wealth of information.

[Mel-4857]

Hi Starmetal, What temp are we talking about to anneal gas checks? Could it be done in a toaster oven or do you need a higher temp. ? Mel

[NVcurmudgeon]

Mel, I have no toaster oven experience. I anneal GC in a wide, shallow tin can on the electrc stove, so as to not contaminate one of the Queen's good pans. When they start to show red, they are plenty hot enough. Set them aside to cool. There is some kind of invisible coating on Hornady GC. Heat causes it to turn black and fall off. I give the GC a good shake and most of it is left in the heating can, seems to do no harm. Annealing can solve the undersize shank problem by eliminating springback. Annealing can also fix the oversize shank problem by making it easy to expand the check. It's a miriacle!

[felix]

The coating that burns off is the remains of lube, or lube wash-off, used to make the checks. Has nothing to do with the final results. Annealing is fundamentally the result of a temperature-time curve. More temperature, less time is roughly equivalent to less temperature, more time; provided enough temperature. Enough temperature, a minimum temperature, would be 200 degrees F. Copper melts at 1000 degrees C, and this temp goes down slightly when alloyed with zinc to about 950 degrees C. So, there is almost no fear of getting a gas check or cartridge case too hot using common sense with normal heat sources. However, as an indication for cartridge cases, the so-called military look is showing a rapid expansion of heat down towards the cartridge case base. When this appears at just below the neck, it is time to cool the case as rapidly as possible. ... felix

[anachronism]

I anneal in an old-style LEE bullet lube kit tray. I just arrange the checks in a single layer in it, then heat them red-hot with a propane torch. At that point you can let them air cool, or drop 'em in water, if you wish. Water dropping the checks won't harden them. If you really want the annealed checks clean, boil them in vinegar. WARNING!!! breathing boiling vinegar fumes is very much like getting maced!!

Bob

[felix]

What Bob had said about vinegar is a good thing to keep in mind. The technique works also for a BP lube, not the vinegar, but the acidic ph. It keeps the BP residue soft. However, the acidic environment is dangerous to barrel metal and its associated apperatus when not cleaned throughly and oiled down after the shoot. To make an acidic lube, use aluminum stearate instead of sodium stearate. ... felix

[Slowpoke]

OK, I took my quenched .310 bulets and ran them thru a .311 sizing die to lube and seat the Hornady GCs. Now I notice the GCs are loose. They spin on the base of the bullet. They seem to be staying on, but as I say are spinning. What now ?

I thought maybe putting my .310 die back in and adjusting the depth screw to just run them in only far enough to tighten the crimp of the GC and not size (and therefore soften) the bullet itself

Patrick-- That will work,it is my belief that when you heat treat bullets with un-annealed gas checks the heat treat anneals the checks and they relax there grip. I have heat treated with annealed checks in place and very few will have loose checks after the quench. You are better off to size your bullets prior to the heat treat and seat annealed gas checks after the quench, and then lube in a die that is . 0005 to. 001 larger than your sized to diameter.

To everyone else.

Try this, wash your checks in acetone a couple times and then anneal, you will still have scale form, so it is my belief that it is not lube related.

You can take checks rite out of the box and anneal them in a low to no Oxygen environment and you will have very little to zero scale form. The scale is a form of oxidation.


Felix is still the man, I have recently been annealing checks using his method of moderate heat for an extended time and let cool slowly, it works like a charm and no scale in an open air environment.

Good luck

[Mel-4857]

Thanks for all the advise. Will give it a try . Mel

[Patrick L]

Slowpoke,

It worked for some of them, but a few are still loose even after being kissed by the .310 die. They are spinning on the heel but they can't be pulled off; at least I haven't been able to pop one off with my fingers. I will try shooting them and see what happens. BTW, I hardened the bullets without the GCs on. I had previously sized the bullets .310 but did not lube or GC them. I then ran my hardened bullets into a .311 die to GC and lube them.

I think my best bet will be to quench the bullets and immediately lube, size, and GC (like within 1/2 an hour of quenching.) Those with experience say this can be done and the bullets will harden in about 24 hrs.

[BCB]

Patrick L
I have shot quite a few 311041's and 429650's with the check loose. It spins in place as you indicated. I never saw a bit of accuracy difference. I intentionally shot a few of them into old catalogs and plastic bottles filled with water so as to be able to collect a few. The check was still in place. I think the barrel finishes seating the check!!! Good-luck...BCB

[imashooter2]

I have noted that Lyman checks are a smaller initial OD than Hornady checks and won't swage at all in a .311 die. In that size I use Hornady which swage on nicely. I save the Lyman checks I have left for Lee soup cans that only drop .309 from my mold and therefore go through the .309 sizer.

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't had many "loose gas check" complications, and I assumed on those occasions that the 4, 5, 6, or however many rifling lands in the barrel's interior would do a pretty good job of impressing the gas check in place, something like a bottle cap. Even the older Lyman design that supposedly didn't crimp in place--seems like the "bottlecap effect" would secure it in place to me.

[Bass Ackward]

I haven't had many "loose gas check" complications, and I assumed on those occasions that the 4, 5, 6, or however many rifling lands in the barrel's interior would do a pretty good job of impressing the gas check in place, something like a bottle cap. Even the older Lyman design that supposedly didn't crimp in place--seems like the "bottlecap effect" would secure it in place to me.


Much is made of GC fit and type. Years ago someone came to the conclusion that snap on checks were better to stay on for better accuracy to the target. I bought that one because I wasn't paying more for checks. But the other purpose that I did test was the function GCs serve performing as the steering wheel for the bullet.

I ran velocity tests using metal from the same batch and slowly opened up, or more accurately removed the taper from the shank, on an undersized shank. What I found was that as the check got tighter, or made more contact, the accuracy level at higher velocities was increased. Up to a point. When I got to where I was having to bell the GC to get them on, no improvement was noted. In fact, accuracy started going the other way. "My assumption" in this case, was that the check could no longer seat properly on the base because the inside corners of the check are rounded from the fold, so bullet bases went out of square.

I also applied this same thought process to annealed GCs. I found that annealed checks had a higher velocity potential than hard checks that were purchased back in the 50s. These clearly had hardened from age. So where the cut off is I can't tell you. Only that annealed is annealed. My theory here was that the softer copper bit into the base of the bullet better forming the rifling edges for gripping. This was proved to me by recovering the bullets from water as BCB describes. The soft checks had flat bases. The hard checks you could feel and sometimes see the burr extending below the base where the rifling pushed copper off it. So not as much copper was available to indent the bullet, thus explaining the lower velocity capability.

"My assumption" from this testing was that I wanted straight, tight fitting shanks from now on and annealed checks for rifles. If I wanted to run low velocity, it didn't hurt, but I got more out of what I wanted with tighter fitting checks.

One down side to annealed checks, is the scraping action in the bore. The hard checks removed more lead than soft. My theory here was that the hard checks had spring back that maintained contact with the bore better. But who cares what the reason was. Rifles get annealed checks, handguns take them like they are.

[felix]

Very good synopsis, BA! Right on. ... felix