My Trapdoor Loads, Technique and Equipment

[Larry Gibson]

Had a request to talk about my M1873 Trapdoor 45-70 loads, hope I don’t bore you…..

My experience with the TD (I’ll refer the M1873 rifle in that generic term) started back in the late ‘60s when Tex Shively (a very colorful individual who was a main pro gun advocate in Oregon fighting the anti gunners back in the ‘60s and ‘70s.) who had a fairly extensive collection which included a couple nice TDs. Tex was also a “shooter” who mostly shot BP but occasionally didn’t mind smokeless powder loads and always wanted a few boxes of cartridges for all his cartridge guns. In conversations he decided, since I cast bullets and had a 400 gr .458 mould that I should load some up for his 45-90 (a very nice Remington Hepburn) and a M1873 TD rifle. He provided all the necessary cases and several lbs of Dupont 3f and 2F and a box (100) of Frankford Arsenal made 500 gr bullets (yes I know collectors but he had a case of them!).

My 1st attempts with the 45-70 involved the Lyman 457124s I had cast of WWs + lead (don’t remember the proportion. These were also sized with a .457 H die (only one I had) and hand lubed with Crisco. I loaded them over 70 gr of the 3F in some old UMC case Tex had provided. Compression of the powder proved necessary and I turned down a ½” dowel to a slip fit in the cases, chucked in my drill press and compressed the powder. Seemed like a lot to me at the time but Tex said the original loads were heavily compressed. First shot at 50 yards was high but on target above 6” bull and I thought I was on a roll……next 2 shots keyholed and the last 2 didn’t even hit the paper! I cleaned the bore and had streaks of leading come out. I had also loaded 5 round of the 2F under the 500 gr arsenal bullet. I shot those and had an excellent 1 ½” or so group at 12 o’clock 8” out of the bull! On cleaning the bore there was no leading at all! I was perplexed to say the least.

I was shooting at the Four Corners R&G Club in Salem, Oregon. An older gentleman (I was 21-22 at the time so most were “older”) saw the TD in the rack and asked what I was shooting in it. When I described the loads he said to mic the arsenal bullets and even try a larger bullet to .462 or so if the mould would cast that big. He also said to use beeswax and tallow for lube and use a softer alloy of 20-1 lead – tin. I went home and checked the arsenal bullets and they mic’d .459 - .460 and the alloy was indeed softer than what I used. I cast some 457124s with 20-1 and they ran .458 – 459. I mixed up some lube on the kitchen stove and the wife told me in no uncertain terms that was the last time for such on her stove! I loaded up those bullets over the same 70 gr 3F load as before. The 5 shot test string went into less than 2” at 50 yards, once again pretty high out of the black at 50 yards. Another test string of the Arsenal bullets replicated the 1st.

I went home, loaded up 20 rounds of each and went back to the range the next day. I put up a V bull “A” target at 200 yards and shot the 2 test loads cleaning the barrel between loads. The 457124s Shot right at the bull size for 15 shots but the group was centered at 12 o’clock on the bullet. The last 5 shots open the group by 5” or so. I cleaned the barrel and found no leading. The test load with the 500 gr arsenal bullets was very good holing the V bull with several Vs! I was ecstatic and Tex was very pleased and had me load an additional 100 rounds of the 400 gr bullets and the rest of the 500 gr bullets.

The Remington Hepburn rifle was an “express” rifle for the 45-90 with 300 gr patched bullets. I loaded 20 cases with 90 gr of the 3F and put the 457124s over that. Tex took them and tested them and told me they shot really well but he patched the bore between shots and shot all 10 into 2” at 100 yards. He said that was close enough and had me load up the 50 or 60 45-90 cases he had. I used a standard 3 die set of RCBS 45-70 dies to load both cartridges. I simply backed out the 45-70 dies to load the 45-90s. That ended my 1st foray into BP cartridge loading and loads for the 45-70.

A few years later I moved east of the mountains to LaGrande, Oregon. While there I built a 45-70 on a Siamese Mauser Action (still have it) and thus began my second foray into loading cast bullets for the 45-70. I initially used the 457124 bullet and had picked up a .459 H die for sizing and lubing. Even cast hard of linotype I found accuracy to get very poor very quickly over 1500 – 1600 fps. I also had my 1st Oehler chronograph (M33 with M11 Skyscreens) along about that time so the velocities are measured not guessed at. I picked up a 457 483 mould which is essentially the 457124 with a GC. I quickly found these to be very accurate up through 2300 fps which was way above TD load levels. I mention it here only to show that I had quite a bit more experience with the 45-70 before I got the next TD.

Another old gentleman, from the LaGrande Rifle & Pistol Club saw me shooting the Mauser at the range one day and said he had a nice TD he’d let me develop loads for if I wanted to. Of course I said “yes” and he brought the M1884 over to my house that evening. He also had a phone number to a guy back in Kansas (he thought) who was collecting TDs and was thought to be developing BP loads for the TD. The guys name was Spence Wolf. I talked to Spence a couple times and he freely gave me the info he had at that time. Said he was just starting to develop original government loads for the TD. He was real interested in my previous work. I replicated my original loads with the 457124 and they shot just as well in the M1884 TD. Unfortunately before I could do much the old gentleman died and I returned the TD to the estate. It would be quite a few years before I got back into TDs…….and I lost touch with Spence.

In the interim I did some load development with some 250 gr 45 Colt bullets that had been copper plated and left in the tank too long as they were .458 diameter. I also PP’d Keith .454 SWCs. I was using Unique and never really got a satisfactory load. At the time I blamed it on the bullet but time and additional knowledge proved the bullet was fine. The problem was Unique was still too slow burning and by the time I got it burning well the velocity was too much for the bullet. I had not yet learned the virtue of a faster more easily ignitable powder for such lighter weight cast bullets in larger case capacity cartridges.

Then in ’91 I began reading in gun pubs about a book soon to be published about loading cartridges for the original 45-70 TD. It was authored by none other than Spence Wolf and his wife Pat. It was published in late ’91 and I got a copy as soon as I could. Still have that copy which is pretty dog eared and a 3rd edition also. Reading Spence’s work in his book; Loading Cartridges For The Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle And Carbine proved to be a revelation. It also sparked a renewed interest in not only reduced loads for my Mauser 45-70 but also for loading for the TD also. Wasn’t too long found me acquiring a M1884 that had been restocked with a sporter/target stock, an H&R Officer’s Model and a n H&R LBH Carbine. I also recontacted Spence and had several additional interesting conversations with him. Unfortunately as the cancer progressed I lost contact and he passed away late in ’93.

I had replicated the service loads as per his instructions in his very fine and much to be recommended book. I also refined those loads for more accurate target use in the target M1884 I had. I discussed that with him and he had no problem as he and I both understood the difference of what he did and what I did. His loads also shot very, very well in both the H&Rs. Unfortunately we lost him as I was getting in smokeless load development with not only the M1873 bullet and the M1882 bullet but also with lighter weight bullets also. There was much information in his book to give me a good start. I shall explain my loads, loading technique and the equipment I use. But lets us please not forget and let us give credit to the two very fine gentlemen who really got me started; Tex Shively and Spence Wolf.

To be continued as soon as I put it down to “electron” and post it………

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Very nice. Thanks and looking forward to installment two.

[Chill Wills]

Can you expand on what you have when you describe

"The Remington Hepburn Sharps was an “express” rifle for the 45-90 with 300 gr patched bullets." ?
What is a Remington Hepburn Sharps?

Thanks, -Chill

[oldfart1956]

Larry I can't thank you enough for starting this post. I usually check in twice a day but may have to up that to 3. Please be sure to include the "little details" and any mods you've made as well. I'm pounding the backstops with an 1884 at present and always looking for more info. Thanks! Audie...the Oldfart

[rbertalotto]

Great post! Thanks..........Keep it coming!

[MikeS]

Larry, great info! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that shot pistol boolits in the 45-70. In my case I shot the 255gr Webley HB boolit as cast from a Mihec mould. I cast them from range scrap that had a BHN of 10-11 or so, and unsized they were dropping right at .457 - .458 (.002 - .003 larger than the mould's nominal .255 diameter), I pan lubed them with my BP lube, then loaded them with 45gr FFFg then filled the rest of the case with PSB buffer right up to the case neck, and used the boolit to compress the powder/buffer. I can't say how accurate they were as I wasn't having a good day when I was at the range, offhand I did manage to keep them all on the target at 25 yards. When I got home and cleaned the rifle there wasn't any leading, so I'm pretty sure the boolits were large enough as my rolling block has a kind of tight bore right around .4565 or so. One thing that surprised me was that when shooting those loads that along with the smoke & sparks that are normal with black powder, the PSB buffer was clearly visible as it left the bore!

The next time I make it to the range I'm going to try some of those in the Enfield I just got, then I'll know for sure if the boolit expands to fill the bore or not as it seems to have a larger bore than my rolling block, although I've yet to slug it. I figure I'll try some of my existing loads sized to .458 and see how they shoot. If I have problems, then I'll slug the bore, but if they shoot good without leading, then I won't bother slugging it.

[Doc Highwall]

Great write up as usual Larry. I also have a copy of Spence Wolf book and recommend it highly.

[Larry Gibson]

Can you expand on what you have when you describe

"The Remington Hepburn Sharps was an “express” rifle for the 45-90 with 300 gr patched bullets." ?
What is a Remington Hepburn Sharps?

Thanks, -Chill

Ya know when writing something like this I was going a bit off memory as most everyone does. I didn't, don't keep a diary of everything I did or do, especially back then. If you'll check Sharpe's The Rifle in America on page 292 you'll find a description of the Remington-Hepburn No. 3 Plain Sporting Rifle Introduced 1880 Discontinued 1907. There are probably other books with more detailed descriptions along with pictures but Phil Sharpe's book is the one I have handy. That one of Tex's was the only such rifle I've handled and had the pleasure to shoot. Were that rifle available today in the condition it was then I'm sure I could not afford to buy it.

As to the "express", note it is quotations. In days of yester year to gain velocity with BP lighter weight bullets were used in larger capacity cases (like the 45-90) and the barrels most often had a slower twist. PP'd bullets were most often used. Such rifles were genericly refered to as "express" rifles because most of the ammo so loaded were called "express" cargridges. Sort of the "magnum" of the day.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

oldfart1956

As you know I'm not claiming to be the expert here as many other shoot their TDs with very good results. Spence and Pat's book is the best reference for such. It also is excellent reference for BP and smokeless loads at TD levels in 45-70s. I'm just going to tell how I refined Spence's work with the knowledge and techniques we use for better accuracy with cast bullets today. We've learned a lot since the M1873 45-70 cartridge was developed. I'll include all the details I can but please don't hesitate to ask for more info as I'll certainly give it if I have it. I expect others will also contibute their knowledge and experience. Should be a good thread for all of us.

Larry Gibson

[Chill Wills]

Ya know when writing something like this I was going a bit off memory as most everyone does. I didn't, don't keep a diary of everything I did or do, especially back then. If you'll check Sharpe's The Rifle in America on page 292 you'll find a description of the Remington-Hepburn No. 3 Plain Sporting Rifle Introduced 1880 Discontinued 1907. There are probably other books with more detailed descriptions along with pictures but Phil Sharpe's book is the one I have handy. That one of Tex's was the only such rifle I've handled and had the pleasure to shoot. Were that rifle available today in the condition it was then I'm sure I could not afford to buy it. OK, I was not sure what you were trying to say. But maybe a Hepburn in Sharps 2-4/10". When ever I see 'Hepburn" in print I perk up. I am on the 12 step Hepburn program. I own more than can be admitted to. Don't get me wrong as I see and understand your use of Sharps and Remington together. As an example, Chevy Impala Ford might need some clarification too.

As to the "express", note it is quotations. In days of yester year to gain velocity with BP lighter weight bullets were used in larger capacity cases (like the 45-90) and the barrels most often had a slower twist. PP'd bullets were most often used. Such rifles were genericly refered to as "express" rifles because most of the ammo so loaded were called "express" cargridges. Sort of the "magnum" of the day.
Yup, but not my question but Sharps 2-4/10" with 20" twist v Winchester 45-90 - mostly same chamber but with Winchester using 32 in 1 inch Express twist for 300grn bullets.
Larry, thanks for taking the time to compose and write. I keep thinking more of our posts should be in article form with the level of effort that goes with it. Keep them coming.
Larry Gibson
Michael Rix

[oldfart1956]

Larry I ain't much of an "expert" follower. I generally find they tend to be long on theory and short on experience. You, my friend, have the experience. And I hope a lot of the others join in the conversation as well. I also hope this doesn't turn into one of those "only black powder is appropriate" threads as so often happens. I have nothing against black powder...buy it in 25lb. kegs. Hunt almost exclusively with smoothbore flintlocks. You perked my ears up in another post about sub-sonic loads and that's where my quest came from. Like some here I can't handle the recoil associated with full black powder loads and short-stroking the load sets off too many alarms for my likeing. Don't want to go to lighter boolits. The 405's shoot dandy and I like the long bearing surface. The TD is my paper-punchin' groundhog huntin' gun. I don't need/want T-Rex loads. I'd be tickled pink to be able to just "poot em'" out there a ways. I'm gonna kill me a groundhog at 200yds. or a smidge more this summer....if'n I kin get them to stay still till it gits there! :) And if these old eyeballs kin see em. Now carry on Larry. This is my 4th. trip in here today an I'll be back tonight! Audie...the excited Oldfart...

[Larry Gibson]

PART II:

I’ve decided not to try to follow a chronological order of my load developments for TD loads. That would jump back and forth too much. Instead I’ll focus on the load development for the M1884 target style TD since it has the original 3 groove barrel. Most of those loads also shoot very well in the modern dimensioned H&R TD barrels but I’ll follow up with special loads used in them. An additional requirement for my loads was they could be left loaded for a long period of time and could be carried afield in a “prairie” belt for use on my “walk abouts”.

My conversations with Spence were all too few and to short. Let’s remember that Spence set out to replicate the original TD service and practice loads to which he succeeded very nicely. He also provides some smokeless loads and practice loads in his book. However, Spence was using the loading technique developed to replicate the service loads, i.e. FL sizing, sizing the bullets to .459, etc. It is known now that with bores of .460+ that bumping up from obturation was not conducive to the best accuracy. We also know that FL sizing also most often is not. My tact was to apply modern cast bullet loading methods to Spence’s proven methods to see if I could improve upon them accuracy wise with both service and practice loads while maintaining the velocity of the service loads. I was applying this to BP loads, duplex loads and smokeless loads. My intent was not to cover all possible loads but to develop a practical working load for each type.

I started out simply replicating the loads as noted in Spence’s book. Based on his recommendation I decided to forgo the RCBS dies and get the Lee die set from Wolf Traders. This included the FL die, expander die, compression die and a seating die. Spence was out of the larger expander but that was ok because I could easily make my own. Good thing I could because the Lee expander I got was .450! That would have really sized the softer cast bullets down on seating. I made a new one out of a chunk of Mauser 7x57 barrel that was .4585.

The barrel of my M1884 TD was slugged at .461 and there was the usual very short throat. I had a .459 H die and started out with that and the moulds I had; 457124, 457483, C457-500-FN and the Lee 459-405-HB made for Wolf Traders to replicate the M1873 service bullet. Cast of 20-1 the Lyman’s dropped at .459, the 500 gr Lee at .460 and the 405HB at .464. I size all at .459 and lube them with my own lube (following Spence’s recommendation) using 5 parts beeswax to 4 parts virgin olive oil. I also lubed some with SPG for comparison. I still had some Dupont 3F but also picked up a lb of GOEX 3F and a lb of GOEX Cartridge. I prepped the WW cases exactly as per Spence’s instructions including drilling the flash holes. I used Federal Magnum primers. I loaded 22 cases each with 70 gr by weight of each powder using a Lyman 55 thrower. With 4 raps of the knocker the Lyman threw very consistent charges. Charges were thrown directly into the cases as a drop tube was not needed. Later testing proved the use of a drop tube did not improve the SD/ES of the loads or accuracy. I believe the heavy compression of the load is why. The compression depth was varied so each different bullet could be seated on top of the compressed powder and the case crimped in the correct place.

Testing all over several shooting sessions at 100 yards and chronographing showed velocities in the 1190 – 1300 fps range depending on which bullet was used. Accuracy ran 3 – 5” for the 10 shots after 2 foulers. The target TD has a Pedersoli tang sight and a Lyman front sight. I did not clean or swab the bore at all between test strings. I did use a blow tube though. I found with all 3 PB’d bullets that accuracy held to around 12 - 15 shots and then the groups opened as fouling built up in the barrel. As expected the Dupont 3F fouled quicker with all bullets. The bore did clean easily after each test load and there was no leading. I found no discernable difference between the lubes and have used my lube since for all my BP loads including my muzzle loaders.

Note; My lube is easy to make, last a long time (not had any go bad after several years), works easily in a Lyman 450 lubrasizer and is easy to hand lube bullets with if needed. I have also used it up to 1800 fps without leading and excellent accuracy in other CF rifles and handguns.

Also as expected the GC’d bullets did much better with not only the best accuracy but also holding accuracy the best as the fouling was scraped away much better. However, a GC’d bullet was not what I wanted so I quite testing those and concentrated on the Lee 405 HB bullet. Leaving it as cast and hand lubing it and loading it over the same 70 gr of GOEX Cartridge (it proved to be the better for accuracy) showed an immediate improvement. I switched to 200 yard testing using old 50 yard pistol targets with 8” bulls. I was able to hold the first 15 or so shots of 20 in the black with that load. But an occasional flyer had me wondering if something else wasn’t quite right. Knowing cases that fit the chamber (NS’d) generally give better accuracy I backed the FL die out to just size the neck area enough for a slip fit of the .4585 expander. Accuracy improved it seemed but an occasional pesky flyer still happened.

I then questioned whether the heavy crimp was necessary for complete ignition as Spence describes. A crimp can be useful in some applications but it also can be detrimental to best accuracy in others. I loaded a test string (22 shots) w/o the crimp. I seated the bullet out to engrave the rifling when the breach block was closed. This also called for less compression of the powder charge. All 20 shots for record stayed in the 8” bull with the first 10 staying in the 9 and 10 rings. I was quite pleased with that. I talked with Spence about that load and what I had done and he thought it great. Remember now I diverged from his original purpose so I am detracting nothing from his work. If you want to replicate the original loads then follow Spence’s advice to the “T” as I can’t improve on that at all.

Spence also suggested I get the Rapine 460500 mould which replicates the M82 500 gr service bullet only at a larger diameter. So I got that Rapine mould and it casts up some beautiful bullets! I initially cast them of 20-1 but my research found that after considerable testing in the later ‘80s with that bullet Frankford Arsenal settled on a 16-1 alloy for best long range accuracy. So I switched to a 16-1 alloy also. I also at that time got a Lyman 45 Short NS die and a Redding 45-70 taper crimp die. I used some epoxy on the seating stem of the Lee seater to fit the top of the 460500. Extra seating stems from Lee are reasonable so I also made one to fit the nose of the 405 HB. NS'd fire formed cases and seating the bullet out so 1/3 the front driving band is engraved by the leade obviously increases case capacity which lessened the amount of compression. The lessoned compression is what gives complete ignition in lieu of the heavy crimp in my estimation.

Note on the foulers; with straight BP loads I found as Spence mentions in his book the first 2 shots go high and then the next shots settle in as the barrel is fouled.

Whatever because all of it worked! I have shot numerous 10 shot groups at 200 yards of 2 – 3 moa (4 – 6” groups) with accuracy holding for 16 - 18 shots including the foulers. Cast of 16-1 alloy the 460500s weighed right at 500 gr. They were dropping right at .4615 so I honed the .459 sizer out to just lube the bullets. The 460500 over the 70 gr of GOEX Cartridge were running at 1150 fps with SDs of 3 – 5 and ES of 10 – 13 fps for 10 shot test strings. With 20 shot test strings at about shot 14 or 15 the SD and ES would almost double and get larger after that. Obviously the buildup of fouling was having an effect. While I liked the accuracy potential I did not care for having to clean the barrel (I didn’t have the Swiss and other cleaner burning BPs available at the time) every 15 or so shot to maintain accuracy and then deal with the first two shots going high when on my “walk abouts” as sometimes out in the high desert of the west I would be “confronted” by numerous “hostiles” (sticks, cow pies, pine cones and mostly rocks at various distances) all posed in war paint and ready to charge. Only the rapidity of fire from the breach loader could fend them off……….please allow me my hallucinations…… . I also really didn’t care for the blow tube which really sucked….pun intended!

My last conversation with Spence I went over this with him. His recommendation was to try his duplex loads. I also mentioned wanting to try his gallery loads with some concave based almost pure lead 45 Colt bullets. He said they might work ok but I’d be much happier with the Rapine 460210 HB’d bullet or the 460250 FP bullet which “fit” the TDs much better. I got both of those moulds and Spence was absolutely correct, they are marvelous! I was so impressed with the 460250 I got another one so with two 2 cavity moulds I can really cast a lot of bullets. That was to be my last conversation with Spence as the cancer rapidly (or so it seemed) overtook him. How I regret not knowing that was the last I’d talk with him……so much left unsaid…….

That pretty much sums up the lead in. I was getting the loading technique down and had the equipment so the next parts will begin to get a lot more detailed on specifics and I'll include some pictures. They say a picture is worth a thousand words but fail to mention what kind of words.......

Back to the duplex loads to be followed after that by my gallery loads, small game loads and I'll even discuss my loading of a "forager" shot shell load.……all of which are with smokeless powders. I put the thread on the Single Shot forum to avoid the "holy Black" and smokeless powder is a "passing fad" controversy.........hope it stays avoided as this thread is intended for ALL TD loads; BP and smokeless.

to be continued…….

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Michael Rix

The book I was referring to was by Philip B. Sharpe......not to be confused with the Sharps rifle. I was, in fact, talking about a Remington Hepburn rifle, made by Remington not by Sharp. It was in 45-90 Winchester.....said so on the barrel if I recall correctly. The Remington-Hepburn does not have an under finger lever, it has the lever on the right side of the action. I had no allusions of it being a Sharps as I owned a couple Fords, a couple Impala's and a couple Silverado's over the years........along with other vehicles that I've not mistaken for something else.......however, as time goes by I can't track all the different makes and models anymore........oh well.....

Larry Gibson

[Chill Wills]

Larry, Was just trying to keep it simple while trying to understand. Was not confused by Philip B. Sharpe and Sharps rifle. Just the opposite. I am trying to understand why you have put together Remington Hepburns ( of which I own many and know something about) and Sharps rifles? ( which I have no shortage ) OK?

I do not want to come off as an expert but the only time Remington and Sharps rifle companies even came close to having anything to do with one-an-other was in the early Creedmoor years. LL Hepburn, working for Remington as their design engineer and shooting on the American longrange team shooting the Rollingblock with some of the other riflemen teammates shooting 1874 Sharps pattern rifle and the banter that took place between them.

Now I have done exactly what I did not want to do, disrupt a perfectly good post with a small question gone sideways.

If you are saying "Remington Hepburn Sharps" it is a typo on your part, no problem, Got it. If not ........forget it. I clearly can't follow what you meant by that and I will just read on. Life is good.
Someone else s turn.

[oldfart1956]

Larry I gotta tell ya....this is what I want to read. Love all the background info and the way you bring it to life with the wanderings. Please continue when time allows and keep writing it just the way you're doing. Now just to help you avoid anyone having a stroke about typos....paragraph 4 : I think you meant the 405HB mold was casting .464 perhaps and not .454 ? Paragraph 7 and 10 you made mention of shooting 8 inch bullets.....I think you meant 8 inch targets. See....I do read very closely and I'm not a nitpicker. ;) Meanwhile I'm perched on the edge of this chair! Many thanks! Audie...the Oldfart...

[Don McDowell]

Larry did you try the blackpowder loads without drilling out the flasholes and using a regular large rifle primer instead of the magnums? I've found the fouling to be a touch drier and harder with the magnum primers.
Interesting side note on duplexing, in it's beginnings it was totally opposite of what it is today. When they first duplexed it was using blackpowder to help the milder blackpowder primers ignite the smokeless powders , as the primers during the cross over time that were used in blackpowder were a good bit weaker than the primers used with smokeless. The blackpowder primers would not regularly ignite the smokeless at that time.
Thanks for enlightening the confusion of the
Remington Hepburn Sharps mentioned in the first post, it was a head scratcher.

[DeadWoodDan]

Larry and others,

I'm ALL on board with this, as I've been scratching together all the components including a second TD modified into a carbine over the last two yrs and hope to be finally firing some rounds this summer. Once i get done working with my M1 carbine development, the TD is next! I already have broke the Lee 405HB mold in and just hoping my alloy will work. I've read S.Wolf's book 2-3 times since purchase and hope to gain more knowledge for my purpose/goals here.

Thanks
DWD

[Doc Highwall]

Two things I want to mention. First there is a group buy for a 2 cavity 405 grain HB bullet made by MiHec that is available in two diameters, I am going to get the larger .462 diameter myself.
This is a 2 cavity mould and will be available with extra pins to change it into a flat base bullet. Check it out under active/open group buys, it should be just the thing for black powder in your trap door.

In the Speer reloading manual #14 edition, Chapter 13 Black Powder Cartridge Performance: A New Look at an Old Art. There is a mention of Spencer Wolf’s reaming the flash holes to .096” and the pressure test they did with black powder. The test was a short one but the test showed the averaged velocity and pressure remained unchanged, but the extreme spread was lower with the .096” modified flash hole and that standard primers worked better then magnum primers. They even show a pressure trace for the two 10 shot strings and they said it would warrant additional investigation and I would recommend reading it as they show tests with different brands and granulations of powder.

[Don McDowell]

I might be mistaken, but it's thought that Wolfs enlarging the flasholes was an attempt to replicate the amount of flame to the powder that came from the 2 and 3 flashole's available from the old Berdan primers.
I know from my own chronograph tests that using large pistol primers will make for very small spreads with blackpowder, and some smokeless like 2400 and 5744 that don't use a large charge amount anyway.

[Doc Highwall]

Don, you are right about the two flash holes from the inside Bennet ? spelling priming and the area is about equal to a single .096” flash hole.

From what I learned from Wolfs book is the about the bad accuracy he got from his hand loads with a TD and then finding and shooting original black powder Govt. loads and the much greater accuracy that he got with them. He said he had a few misfires because of the age of them that he broke them down to discover what made them shoot so much better then his hand loads. We have to be thank full that he put all of his research into a book making it easy for the rest of us.

Just think I am going back to school and where is that, on the Springfield Armory grounds. I don’t think it will take too much to convince me to visit more often.

[Don McDowell]

Well there's two things that Wolf sorta missed with his .096 flashhole when compared against the Berdan primer. The flasholes in a berdan primed case are seperated, so the flame actually hits the powder in 2 places, and the primers of that era were considerably weaker than the smokeless primers we have today, and that last bit is why so many folks find better accuracy from either large pistol primers , and or using an over primer or under powder wad, when deadnuts serious about accurate blackpowder loading.
The Springfield manual on the 1873 is a good read for trapdoor nuts as well.

[Larry Gibson]

Chill

I reread my post and see where the confusion is and it's all my fault. Why I put "Sharps" after the 2nd mention of "Remington- Hepburn" I have no idea. I have edited the original post to say "Remington Hepburn rifle" which it was. My apologies for the mistake and further confusion over what you were saying. Thanks for the catch and correcting me.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry I gotta tell ya....this is what I want to read. Love all the background info and the way you bring it to life with the wanderings. Please continue when time allows and keep writing it just the way you're doing. Now just to help you avoid anyone having a stroke about typos....paragraph 4 : I think you meant the 405HB mold was casting .464 perhaps and not .454 ? Paragraph 7 and 10 you made mention of shooting 8 inch bullets.....I think you meant 8 inch targets. See....I do read very closely and I'm not a nitpicker. ;) Meanwhile I'm perched on the edge of this chair! Many thanks! Audie...the Oldfart...

Made all the correstions.....you guys are keeping me straight and it was sorely needed.....Kudo's......

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

DeadWoodDan

Don't hesitate to ask questions about the TD loads if you have any as this thread is where we want to learn, all of us.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry did you try the blackpowder loads without drilling out the flasholes and using a regular large rifle primer instead of the magnums? I've found the fouling to be a touch drier and harder with the magnum primers.
Interesting side note on duplexing, in it's beginnings it was totally opposite of what it is today. When they first duplexed it was using blackpowder to help the milder blackpowder primers ignite the smokeless powders , as the primers during the cross over time that were used in blackpowder were a good bit weaker than the primers used with smokeless. The blackpowder primers would not regularly ignite the smokeless at that time.
Thanks for enlightening the confusion of the mentioned in the first post, it was a head scratcher.

No I have tried the BP loads with regualr flash holes. I prepped a hundres WW cases as per Wolf's instructions and just went with those. Good point you bring up here on that. I will have to try them. My duplex loads are in cases with regular flash holes. My gallery loads are in both, I'll touch on that further on.

Larry Gibson

[Don McDowell]

Looking forward to reading your exploits Larry.

[oldfart1956]

C'mon Larry.....I'm having withdrawl symptoms! Anyways, still patiently waiting and I do have a host of questions but I want to read first. No sense me muckin' about and messing up a good read. And make sure to let us know (as you have already) the things that didn't work as well. I'm constantly changing/modifying/twaddeling about with this old gun and its ca'tridges. That being said it's still been very consistantly accurate and shockingly so for a 129yr. old gun despite my tampering. :) Audie....the Oldfart..

[Chill Wills]

Chill I reread my post and see where the confusion is and it's all my fault. Why I put "Sharps" after the 2nd mention of "Remington- Hepburn" I have no idea. I have edited the original post to say "Remington Hepburn rifle" which it was. My apologies for the mistake and further confusion over what you were saying. Thanks for the catch and correcting me. Larry Gibson

Hey Larry, Thanks for the reply and double thanks for adding this kind of in depth entry to the mix. If someone thought I was holding your feet to the fire, that was not my intent, I just like to understand. Keep 'em coming.
Michael Rix

[Barnacle Brad]

Larry, thanks for this thread first of all. I appreciate your work and words as well. I appreciate the work Spence has done and Pat continues through Wolf's Western Trader. Your fan base is increasing!

I have maybe a silly question. I am interested in bullet obturation. I know that Wolf's objective was to replicate the accuracy of the TD by loading to the Arsenal standard using BP, soft lead alloy and Arsenal spec bullets. The loads he developed were designed to shoot accurately through any TD. IMO, bullet obturation is the key.

Now, I have been told or read or imagined that BP is required to provide the pressure needed to upset the bullet base.The scope of Wolf's work has limited the discussion to BP, although he does tempt us with some smokeless loads. I am spoiled I guess, because I want to achieve consistency and accuracy with both BP and smokeless.

So as I sat contemplating this obturation thing it occurred to me that if you could inspect bullets having been fired with both types of powder, you could measure this and see the rifling on the bullet. The problem is once that bullet touches anything, your data is ruined. Then I wondered - and here is the question finally - have you fired into a water tank and recovered the bullets? Would the impact with the water ruin the data?

I am still in the process of working on the bp loads. I am pleased so far with what I have accomplished, but I want to be able to look forward to playing with smokeless also. Is there any hope?

[oldfart1956]

Larry I wasn't gonna ask any questions for a spell but I just noticed a problem and figgered I'd ask. Normally while at the range I clean between shot strings for each different loading. My procedure was always to run a Hoppes patch downbore then run a damp patch with a square of copper mesh over it to clear any possible leading. I am getting some minor leading for the first couple inches in front of the chamber....working on that. What I hadn't thought of was...where does the lead go? I have the gun upside down on the bags so figgered the lead would either stick to the copper mesh patch or fall free of the breech. Ummm...nope. While prepping some fired cases today found lead stuck to the mouth of several cases. Mind you it ain't from not flaring the case mouth. I'm real careful about that. I've apparently deposited a sum of lead in the chamber. GAARRRH! Next time I'll use a bore-snake and pull it from breech to muzzle....hindsight is 20/20. The problem now is clearing the chamber of this lead deposit. Can't get to it with a cleaning rod...rear of the breech prevents that. So I'm sittin' here looking at the flex-shaft on this Dremel tool and wonderin' how bad I could gammahooch up this chamber by fitting a cleaning brush on the end of the shaft and spinning it in there. Any ideas? Thanks...Audie...the befuddled Oldfart..

[Don McDowell]

The original composition of the 45 government bullets were 16-1, and used a lube made from bayberry wax and graphite.This like many other things have been lost in the translation from then to now, and noone for sure can tell you where things got distorted. Even as late as the 1950's Lyman/Ideal suggested #2 alloy as being fine for most blackpowder rounds, but try that today and watch the "experts" come unwound.

Oldfart, take your cleaning rod without a tip threaded on to it, run it down into the action of your rifle, then attach an over sized bronze brush that has a patched soaked in turpentine or kriol to the rod, pull it back until resistance is felt and then twist and pull it toward you, push it out take off the old patch and repeat until there's no grey shows up on your clean patches.

[Larry Gibson]

Barnacle Brad

Re obturation; yes in days of old it was thought that was the way to go, a hold over in thought from the ML rifles with bullets. Thus the 45-70 was developed with the 405 gr bullet and was expected to obturate to "take the rifling" as sealing the bore wasn't a serious consideration yet. Then it was found that a fully obturated bullet sealed the bore and left less fouling. It was found that the 405 gr bullet did not have the mass for effective sealing of the bore through obturation with the full service load let alone the carbine 45-55 loads. That led to the development and adoption of the M82 500 gr bullet. It has the mass to obturate under the 70 gr service load. It became renowned for it's much better accuracy that the 405 gr 45-70 load.

Note; let's remember the HB in the 405 and 500 gr service bullets is to control the weight while maintaining external dimentions. It is not there to aid in obturation ala mine' style HB bullets. The manuals refer to the HB as a "cavity" or "dish".

We have learned since that it is much better for accuracy with either kind of powder if the bullet "fits" the throat to begin with and does not have to depend on obturation to seal the bore. Spence rpelicated all there was about and that he could of the service 45-70 loads. They depended on obturation and his loads do also. That's why I took the tac I did to increase the accuracy. Sometimes depending on obturation (in our case using a bullet less than groove diameter) can give quite good results as with the original service loads and those developed to replicate such service loads by Spence. However, I think we can pretty much agree that having the bullet "fit" to begin with is the prefferred method for best accuracy.

While I've shot pistol bullets into water for inspection with success the faster the velocity the harder water gets and the more damage done to the bullet. I have recovered some of my 45-70 bullets that were fired into snow. They showed the bullets "took the rifling" quite well they were still not of groove diameter.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Don nails it; "Oldfart, take your cleaning rod without a tip threaded on to it, run it down into the action of your rifle, then attach an over sized bronze brush that has a patched soaked in turpentine or kriol to the rod, pull it back until resistance is felt and then twist and pull it toward you, push it out take off the old patch and repeat until there's no grey shows up on your clean patches. "

Only thing I would add is to use a conical rod guide on the rod at the muzzle to protect the crown.

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Thanks guys! Heading to Clearfield this weekend and I'll stop in at Bobs and pick up some larger bronze bore brushes. Mebbe a 50cal. and perhaps a .54 just to be sure. Another thought I had was...why didn't I just leave the last empty case in the gun while swabbing? That would have caught the lead....duhhhh. And I agree on using the bore protectors to avoid crown damage! Again, many thanks. Audie..the Oldfart..

[Don McDowell]

The lead just sticks to the cleaning patch and doesn't go anywhere anyway.

[Larry Gibson]

PART III:

I had several reasons for developing duplex 45-70 loads. Maintaining accuracy w/o cleaning between shots or every 10 shots or so was foremost as I didn’t want to carry a lot of cleaning equipment with me on “walk about” shoots where upwards of 50 shots would/could be taken. I also really detested the use of the blow tube between shots. Increasing the “power” of the loads was not a consideration at all. I wanted simply to lessen the fouling while maintaining original ballistics within the psi range safe for TDs and perhaps improving upon accuracy.

The smokeless powder charge against the primer aides in ignition alleviating the need for drilling the flash holes and other makes of cases with thicker walls can also be used. The smokeless charge, if sufficient, also “blows out” of the barrel most of the charcoal residue from the BP. This can be seen easily seen by looking from the breach end down the bore after several regular BP rounds have been fired. This residue (BP fouling) builds up and not only destroys accuracy but also can prevent the chambering of a bullet with a tight bore riding nose. The blow tube softens the residue in the leade allowing the bullet to be seated. However, after sufficient rounds fired w/o swabbing or cleaning and chambering, even with the use of the blow tube, will be difficult. [Note; this is why a true M1873 bullet is not a bore rider and the M1882 bullet’s nose is smaller than the bore in diameter sp both will still chamber even after many rounds have been fired] With an efficient smokeless ignition charge there is little charcoal fouling left in the leade and bore so the use of a blow tube to “keep it soft” is no longer needed.

Additionally with most of the charcoal residue blown out I have found accuracy of a 405 gr bullet that fits the groove diameter and not depending on obturation to fit the bore will not quite but almost as accurate to 800 yards as the M1882 500 gr bullet.

In developing my own duplex loads I followed Spence’s advice and use IMR 4759 (SR4759) as the smokeless powder in my duplex loads. I had picked up a hundred once fired R-P nickeled cases to use as they would, if useable, allow a quick identification of the duplex load vs a smokeless of straight BP load. Those cases would chamber in my TD so they were close to “fire formed”. I cleaned and NS’d them. I used standard WLP primers and did not drill the flash holes. Actually nothing other than cleaning and inspecting was done to the cases. I started off using 5 shot test strings with 4 gr of 4759 against the primer and (using Spence’s bulk formula of 1 gr 4759 = 2.8 gr FFG) reduced the amount of GC (GOEX Cartridge) by 11gr to 59 gr. Care bust be taken that the seated bullet still compresses the total powder charge. I have not found the compression die to be needed with the 500 gr bullet and probably is not needed with the 405 gr bullet But I use it anyway. I compress the powder so the bullet, at a cartridge AOL of 2.55” for the Lee 405HB, just sets on top of the powder. I use the taper crimp die to just put a slight taper crimp on the case mouth. Additional test loads to, increasing the 4759 1 gr per test while decreasing the GC approximately 2.8 gr per test, 7 gr 4759 and 50 gr GC were loaded.

Shooting the 5 shots in each test load and inspecting the bore showed that 7 gr of 4759 did indeed “blow out” most all of the charcoal (black streaks) residue and fouling. The barrel was cleaned between test strings. I also found that accuracy steadily increased as the 4759 was increased. Velocity was lower than the 1340 - 1350 fps I was looking for to duplicate M1873 service ballistics. I then kept the smokeless load at 7 gr and began increasing the GC in 1 gr increments. I found that with 7 gr 4759 under 52 gr GC in the fire formed R_P nickeled cases with the 16-1 Lee 405HB the velocity was right at 1340 - 1350 fps, just where it should be to match original ballistics out of the 32 ½” original TD rifle barrel. I have subsequently pressure tested that load (Oehler M43) and found the psi to be 20,300 psi(M43), well within the psi MAP of 28,000 for the TD. The ten shot psi test had an SD of 10 fps and an ES of 30 fps.

That has been my standard M1873 BP duplex load for use in my H&R Officer’s Model. I have a M1879 “R” Type III (3rd form) rear sight on it and a Beech front sight along with the factory tang sight. With the rear sight set at 100 yards and using the blade of the Beech front sight the POI is just above POA at 100 yards. I generally can hold 10 shots into 2 – 3 moa with the M1879 rear sight (I do better with the tang sight of course). The range regulations have proven quite correct to 1000 yards.

I next wanted a 45-55 carbine load with the 405HB at 1150 fps out of my H&R LBH Carbine. I took the tang off the LBH (why it was put there is beyond me!) and installed a “C” M1879 Type IV (4th form) rear sight with a blade front sight. I dropped the 4759 charge back to 5 gr (thinking it shouldn’t take as much smokeless to blow the BP residue/fouling out of the shorter 22” carbine barrel proved correct) and loaded 42 gr GC over it. Care must really be used to make sure the bullet does slightly compress the powder. The 405HB had to be seated under 2.55” OAL for some slight compression just as the original 45-55 w/o a wad in it. I left the 4759 charge at 5 gr and increased the GC until 49 gr gave 1138 fps at 15’ with an SD of 6 and an ES of 18. These were loaded with the 405HB cast of 16-1 and sized .4615 and lubed with my beeswax/olive oil lube. I have since switched to the 457124 Lyman cast of the same alloy. It gives almost identical ballistics and is easily identifiable as the 45-55 load by the different bullet.

These duplex loads have met my every expectation. They are accurate, I do not use a blow tube any longer and I can literally shoot all day w/o losing accuracy from hardened or excessive BP fouling. During a test one time there was 80+ rounds fired from the H&R OM and 100+ from the H&R Carbine in one day w/o cleaning, blowing or anything else. At the end of the test I fired a 5 shot group from each at 100 yards and found they both still were as accurate as if clean. Speaking of cleaning; it is also so much easier w/o all the BP charcoal residue.

Ok, so what about my original TD target rifle? Well, that was super easy; I used the same load as for the M1873 405HB bullet and simply substituted the M1882 500 gr bullet cast of 16-1 form the Rapine 460500 mould. Those bullets drop exactly at 500 gr BTW and were sized at .4615 and also lubed with my beeswax/olive oil lube. This time I used standard R-P cases that were fire formed and NK sized. Primers were again WLRs (Other standard and magnum primers have been tested with little or discernable use with these duplex loads). The .4585 expander was used. Both the charges (4759 and 52 gr GC) were thrown with a Lyman 55 and no drop tube used). The compression die was used. Seating was adjusted so the front 1/3 of the driving band was engraved by the leade when the breach block was shut. The taper crimp die is used to just straighten out the case mouth bell. I fired 2 foulers and then 10 shots for record at 200 yards. The group was 2.9”, the velocity was 1200 fps with an SD of 4 and an ES of 14 fps. What could I say except ….sweet!

Next I’ll discuss some straight smokeless powder loads………to be continued…….

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Awesome Larry! Really enjoying the step by step approach and delighted to see the pressure readings included with the velocities. I probably worry too much about the pressure in this old gun but figger by the time I notice a problem I'd be launching parts like Elmer did. :) Audie....the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Been having real problems with my internet connectivity here (using old one from up north and nearest tower is way south in Parker). I posted Part IV but looks like it didn't make it and like an idot I didn't save it. Redoing it now and am about half done.......sorry for the delay. Part V is also done (and saved!) and will be posted with Part IV.

Larry Gibson

[Barnacle Brad]

Larry,
I am so glad to see you posting this material at this time! Your timing is impeccable!

I am getting ready to make up a batch of lead alloy. If I have not slugged my barrel am I better of to use a 20:1 or 16:1 alloy? This is for my 84 TD Rifle. I will be casting 459-405-HB (lee) and 459-500-3R.

Thanks in advance for you help. If the others are like me, there is no way to thank you enough...

Brad

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
I am so glad to see you posting this material at this time! Your timing is impeccable!

I am getting ready to make up a batch of lead alloy. If I have not slugged my barrel am I better of to use a 20:1 or 16:1 alloy? This is for my 84 TD Rifle. I will be casting 459-405-HB (lee) and 459-500-3R.

Thanks in advance for you help. If the others are like me, there is no way to thank you enough...

Brad

If you're going to size .459 as per Wolf and depend on obturation/bumping up then use the 20/1 alloy.

However, if you're bullets are at or above groove diameter then go with the 16/1 alloy. That's if you are pushing upwords of service cartridge velocity; 1200 - 1350+ fps. If loading under 1200 fps the 20/1 alloy will be fine.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Great write ups as always and thanks for sharing. Just wish I had a TD to play with.

[Doc Highwall]

Larry, I see in post #36 that you sized the 16:1 alloy bullets .4615" and the expander was .4585" for a .003" neck tension.
I see what you have shot for group sizes (nice by the way) but did you use any other neck tension then the .003", just wondering how you arrived at the .003"?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I see in post #36 that you sized the 16:1 alloy bullets .4615" and the expander was .4585" for a .003" neck tension.
I see what you have shot for group sizes (nice by the way) but did you use any other neck tension then the .003", just wondering how you arrived at the .003"?

The .4585 expander was made originally for the softer cast bullets sized.459. That gave some neck tension with minimal if any bullet distortion. Then when I cast of 16-1 and went to the bullets sized .4615 I just used the same expander because it gave no sizing down of those alloyed and sized bullets. Other than that no real scientific reason (I know, strange for me....). In Part IV or V I'll mention shooting "as cast" bullets of larger sizing.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

I see you had .0005" neck tension for the soft lead and just used it for the harder 16:1 alloy and it worked. Too bad things like that did not happen more often.

[Larry Gibson]

I see you had .0005" neck tension for the soft lead and just used it for the harder 16:1 alloy and it worked. Too bad things like that did not happen more often.

Sometimes you just get lucky......I think the fact that I was seating the bullets into the leade countered and potential problems.

Larry Gibson

[rollmyown]

Great reading Larry. Looking forward to parts IV and V!

[Larry Gibson]

Almost got them done.

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Good Lawd Larry...I thought you might'a went beaver! I was ready to e-mail your widow and see if she could find us a copy of the data or send me your computor! ;) Anxiously awaiting the details. While waiting I'm still twiddling with loads. Last weekend I saved my first target in 45 years of shooting! :) 100 yards off the bench and the group measured 3/4 of an inch for 3 shots...buggered to 1 1/2 inch (outside to outside) with the 4th. shot.....then I looked at the group with binoculars and seen what I had...pulled the 5th. shot. GAAHH! 1884 TD with 11.5gr. Unique/lapped Lee 405h.b. mold using Lyman #2 and Felix loob. Minor leading. Lapped the mold a bit more an now at .4635 and honed out the sizing die this weekend. Tried some Reclused loads today and that didn't go so well. Fair groups but you'd have to see the leading. Well...we're waiting. Audie...the Oldfart..

[historicfirearms]

Great thread Larry. I just made a deal with a friend to buy his M1884. It has been in his family since his great grandfather used it during the war (guessing Spanish -American?). He still has the original bayonet for it too. I can't wait to start working up some loads for it, this thread will really help out. Thanks!

[rollmyown]

How about making this a sticky? Great info like this should be top of the screen.

[Randy C]

:coffee: I will have to read this more than once.

[oldfart1956]

Nothing since mid-April??? Larry....yer killin me. I'm lappin' molds and resizing sizing dies, honing out my rcbs sizer/deprimer die, making seater nose mods and found two tubs of unknown lube I bought in a large purchase. I'm wailin' away at the backstops so often I got to go rummage galena out'a the dirt! I know the post is gonna be worth it but I'm not a young man...no tellin' how much time I got left. And the groundhogs are movin'!! Can't we have just a little peek? Audie...gittin older by the minute...

[Larry Gibson]

Well one thing and another has kept me busy the last few weeks, seems moving in toa new place is a never ending process. Here's Part IV which is not finished as I'm still rearching my records and putting the last part together. I post the rest when I get done. Part V is also included in the second post. Certainly wouldn't want oldfart1956 to come back and haunt me if he has the big "H" before I get er done.....LOLs....

Larry Gibson

Part IV……Smokeless Powder Loads……

Getting right down to it I suppose you know by now I prefer loads in fire formed cases that are NS’d. I do partial size the case for loads that will be used interchangeably between the two H&R TDs. For use in the M1884 original TD I use dedicated cases that are NS’d. The reason being is that psi of these loads in in the 25,000+ psi range and the fire formed cases will not easily chamber in all 3 rifles after a couple firings.

Cases & primers; with these smokeless powder loads with 390 – 500 gr bullets I most often use WW cases for these loads also. However, I have used R-P, Federal and Starline cases with equal success. I actually have acquired a quantity of Starline cases and these will probably be used for the 500 gr service level duplication loads for the M1884. I use Winchester, CCI and Federal LR standard primers interchangeably and haven’t found much, if any, difference in velocity or psi levels at the low end of TD loads. I just use what’s handy and available (especially these days). I prime the cases mostly with the RCBS bench priming tool but do use the Lee hand priming tool (latest version) for priming only a few cases.

Sizing & loading; The fired cases are cleaned, partial or NS’d for the rifle(s) to be used in), deprimed and I usually inspect the case inside and out while cleaning the primer pocket with the RCBS primer pocket cleaner (you’d be surprised what can find its way into that large case). When partial sizing I use the Lee FL die for the H&R TDs and the RCBS FL die for the M1884 TD. The FL dies are backed out with the cases sized until they just chamber easily. I use the two FL dies as they are adjusted and don’t need to be reset. The partial size setting with the RCBS FL die is also a perfect fit for my Siamese Mauser 45-70. With such it makes loading for multiple rifles easier. When partial sizing I put a bunch of the cases in an old gold mining pan and spray lube lightly with Dillon’s spray lube or my own made from alcohol and lanolin. If NSing I use a tudge of lanolin on every 3rd case applied with my fingers. The cases are delubed in a tumbler with sawdust; takes about 15 – 20 minutes. The cases then have the necks expanded with the .4585 expander and new primers seated for use with TD loads. Cases are then charged with powder thrown from a Lyman 55 after setting the charge with a Redding scale. A visual on powder amount is made and only then is the powder charged case put in a loading block. When all the cases are charged I then insert a dacron filler in the case if needed.

The bullet is set on the flared case mouth and the bullet is seated to depth using the Lee seating die. My press is a Pacific O frame BTW or sometimes I use my COAX press. I have separate Lee seating stems for a couple bullets (460500 & 459-405HB) with the stem filled with Steel-Bed to fit the specific bullet nose contour. With most of the other bullets the Lee factory seating stem as is works fine. Nice thing about the Lee seater is the seating stem is readily changed. I use the Lee seating die with the seating stem removed to roll crimp or I use the Redding taper crimp die. Most often the taper crimp die is used to just straighten out the case mouth flare. Since the TD has a bit of leverage when closing the breach block I seat the bullets so the front of the driving band is engraved by the leade. An exact OAL other than that makes no detectable difference in accuracy. I load all of my TD cartridges so they can be carried in a prairie belt. Thus all the lube grooves and lube are inside the case mouths.

Alloys; I most often cast the Rapine 460500s of 16-1 alloy because they mostly get shot with BP or duplex loads and that alloy is perfect for them. That alloy is also excellent with smokeless loads. With the Lee 459-405HBs I cast them of 20-1 for straight BP loads. I cast them mostly out of range lead + 2% tin with a lot of lead added to soften it down for the duplex and smokeless loads. Since range lead varies greatly in composition it’s hard to give exact combinations except to say I like an AC’d 459-405HB for smokeless loads to cast well and have a BHN in the 11 – 13 range. With any batch of range lead I adjust the amounts of tin and lead added until that it achieved and it has worked well for a number of years and several different batches of range lead. Many times I also cast Lyman’s 458124 of the same alloy and use the same loads. The two GC’d (sacrilegious?) LeeC457-500-FN and the Lyman 458483 are cast from 16-1 (Lee bullet) and 20-1 (Lyman bullet) Both of those are quite accurate and can be driven to top end TD psi’s and velocities with excellent accuracy for hunting.

Powders; over the years I have used numerous smokeless powders of the appropriate burning rate for the TD [5744, 4198, 2400, 4227, 4759, RL7, 3031, 4895 and Varget]. All worked fine, all were “accurate” but some worked better than others for TD use. All of them required a dacron filler for best ignition and efficient burn. The dacron filler also greatly increased accuracy with little increase in psi at a given velocity. I did try other fillers such as COW and psi testing showed a great increase in psi, no increase in accuracy and problems associated with moisture absorption. Dacron has proven stable and reliable over the years; it’s what I use and what I recommend.

Accuracy; when I mention a “moa” level of accuracy that is at 200 yards with 10 shot groups. That is my standard of accuracy testing for both the M1884 target rifle and the H&R OM using the tang sights. I will note 100 yard accuracy with the H&R OM and LBH carbine which is done at 100 yards with the M1879 rear sights and 10 shot groups.

I’ve done lots of load development over the years and there’s not enough space here to cover it all. I’ll list the current loads I use and include a few notes on them. We can discuss specific loads and how I got there with them if you have questions concerning them.


Rapine 460500 gr service level load;

With this bullet or with the 457125 I was looking for a smokeless load that was low on psi yet pushing the M82 bullet at 1270 – 1315 fps to match the external ballistics of the M88 BP load for use in M1884 rifles with the Buffington sight. The Arsenal velocity was supposed to be 1315 fps muzzle velocity but Spence Wolf chronographed some M88 ammunition at 1255 & 1260 fps. Back in the mid ‘70s I chronographed 3 shots of M88 at 1264 fps at 15’ from the muzzle of a M1884 TD with a M11 Oehler chronograph. The 460500 at 500 gr over 70 gr of GOEX Cartridge was running right at 1200 fps.

I currently use two smokeless powders to achieve accurate loads with either bullet. The 457125 is cast of 20-1 and drops at .459 - .460 from the mould I was using. It does need to “bump up” to obdurate. I lube them as cast. The Rapine 460500 at .4615 is the more accurate in my target TD and is the bullet I now use. It is cast of 16-1 and does not need to “bump up” to obdurate and fit the groove diameter. I use 4895 and AA5744, both with a 1+ gr dacron filler. Both bullets are lubed with my BP lube and no leading occurs. There is still some unburned powder with both but it easily is blown out of the action if too much accumulates. With 4895 I use between 34 and 36 gr depending on the flavor of 4895 and the lot. I just work up the load so the velocity falls within the desired 1270 – 1315 fps. Accuracy is always around 2 moa. Both bullets seated so the driving band is engraved 1/3 to ½ when the breach block is closed. My current load of 34 gr milsurp 4895 with the dacron filler runs at 23,200 psi(M43), obviously well under the 28,000 psi SAAMI MAP.

M1898 load with the Rapine 460500;

The original M1898 smokeless load was 40 gr of 3031 under the arsenal M82 bullet cast of 16-1 alloy. I basically duplicate that with the Rapine bullet over 38 - 40 gr (no filler) depending on lot of powder. Velocity is 1400 – 14-30 fps from my target TD and accuracy runs 2 – 3 moa. It is not as accurate as the service load with 4895 or with AA5744. This may be because there is no dacron filler. I do not use this load unless I come across 3031 as I don’t like using that powder as the kernels are too long to measure accurately and I don’t want to weigh charges. One of these days I will drop back to 36 gr, use a dacron filler and work back up but haven’t gotten around to it. I prefer 4895 to duplicate the M1898 service load. I am using 37 gr of my current lot of milsurp 4895 (has a burning rate close to 4064 or Varget) with a 1 gr dacron filler for 1446 fps and consistent 2 moa accuracy. This makes for an excellent hunting load “as is” but I prefer the C457-500-fn for that.

500 gr bullet hunting load for my TD;

I use the Lee C457-500-FN bullet for hunting. It being GC I can cast it of softer alloy for excellent expansion and yet it can driven as fast. Years ago Lyman sent me loading data with C.U.P. pressures for TD level loads for their 500 gr “Schmitzer” bullet. It listed 45 gr 4895 (IMR) at 1459 fps (30” barrel) at 17,400 C.U.P. I use 40 gr of my current milsurp 4895 with a 1 gr dacron filler for 1505 fps at 26,500 psi(M43). Cast softer of 20-1 expansion is excellent and penetration is all one could ask for in larger game. I once shot a spike elk with a broken leg with it from about 50 yards away in the throat and the bullet exited beside the anus. Yes it does let you know you are pulling a trigger in a M1884 TD with prone or bench being not to comfortable for extended shooting sessions. However when hunting and shooting from sitting, kneeling or standing positions the recoil is hardly noticeable.

M1873 405 gr “service” duplication smokeless loads;

I use the Lee 459-405-HB bullet cast of 20-1 or 16-1 to duplicate these loads for the M1884 target TD and the H&R OM. My Lee mould drops the Hb bullets at .454 - .455 so for the M1884 I most often shoot them “as cast”. I lube them with my BP lube using a TC hand luber made for lubing .45 cal bullets with Original 1000 Bore Butter. I use and empty tube and fill it with my own BP lube. For use in the H&R OM I size the bullets in the 450 with .4615 H die and lube with my BP lube. At 200 yards the “as cast” bullets will give a bit better accuracy in the Target TD but in the H&R OM it doesn’t seem to matter if the bullets are sized or shot “as cast”. The most accurate load (1.5 moa with both rifles) is 25 -26 gr AA5744 (depending on lot) with a ¾ gr dacron filler for right at 1300 fps out of the H&R OM. That load will give about 1325 – 1350 fps in the longer barreled target TD. The psi(M43) is 22,500 – 25,000 for that load. I substitute the Lyman 457124 cast of the same 16-1 alloy, sized at .459 (“as cast”) in that load for use in the H&R OM as it has a .458 - .459 groove barrel and accuracy is the same, excellent. However that bullet at that low psi apparently does not obdurate well in the target TD’s .461 groove barrel and accuracy is poor.

SR4759 is also a fine powder to use with this weight cast bullets. I’ve found 22.5 – 23.5 gr with a ¾ gr dacron filler to shoot almost as good, if not as good, as the 5744 load. However, 5744 is easier to come by in my neck of the woods as 4759 was discontinued for a while. I could easily live with either powder. I have not yet pressure tested the 4759 load.

Note: 28 – 29 gr AA5744 w/o the dacron filler will push a 400 – 405 gr cast at 1350 fps with 28 – 29,000 psi(M43). It is thus a “max” load for a TD.

[I]Other 385 – 420 gr cast bullet smokeless loads;

Gathering data from records to publish soon hopefully.......

[Larry Gibson]

Part V; “foraging”, small game, plinking and indoor practice loads

Having an indoor range capable of handling cartridges of 2000 fps readily available to me for several years was a boon to my reduced load development for about every cartridge I cast and reloaded for. This of course included the 45-70 and I refined a couple previous loads and developed some others.

I’ll not cover any BP loads here as Spence covered them very well in his book and I never really attempted any other loads as my main interest with these type of loads was with smokeless powders for use in all 3 of my TDs and my Siamese Mauser. Thus I’ll refer anyone to Spence’s book for BP loads and will, here, concentrate on those smokeless powder loads that worked well for me in all 4 rifles.

The alloy used for cast bullets or the RB should be soft. However they may be of about any binary or ternary alloy as long as it is soft and the antimony content is not too high. I many times used range lead but it has a high % of antimony most often so its castability was improved by adding 2% tin and then was “softened” with about 50- 70% lead added. That made it cast very well and yet it held up to the 1050 fps of the fastest such loads. The binary 40-1 and 30-1 alloys also work very well. Of course 20-1, 16-1, WWs +2% tin, #2 and even linotype will work well for these loads if the bullet diameter is at least of groove diameter. If these harder alloyed bullets are smaller than groove diameter you can expect some leading.

I always prefer a soft lube with these bullets. Javelina always worked very well as did LLA (following the directions) and any other NRA 50/50 formula lube. BAC also works very well. Most of the time I just use my BP lube (5 parts beeswax/4 parts virgin olive oil) as it’s in the 450 lubrasizer with the .4615 H die.

Powder; I ran the gamut of powders in the Unique – 4759 range and found all them unsatisfactory, The reason being all of them required higher psi to burn efficiently in the larger 45-70 case. By the time any of those powders were efficiently burning the velocity was not only way more than I wanted but accuracy also suffered. I finally re-researched such reduced and “cat sneeze” loads and decided that a faster powder was needed, even in the larger 45-70 case with light weight bullets. I’d been using Bullseye for years with other reduced loads so I decided to give it a try. I also tried other powders in the same burning rate but kept coming back to Bullseye for consistent performance with such loads in the 45-70 also.

I find any case works quite well but with small amounts of smokeless powder in the large 45-70 case I use the WW cases with the flash holes drilled as per Spence’s recommendation. The larger flash hole allows the flash to get into the case quicker and should be a larger “flash”. That’s what I think anyway and it works for me as most all such loads with Bullseye powder exhibit little or no “powder positioning” variance. It has been my practice and recommendation for several years that if one is wanting such reduced level loads with lighter weight bullets to reach for my “go to” powder; Bullseye.

I most often prefer to use a well fire formed case that is neck sized and expanded with the .4585 expander. There is an exception and I will cover it later. When cases offer too much resistance on closing the breech block I partial size them by backing out the Lee FL die so they are just a slip fit back into the chamber. Since beginning NSing and the partial sizing when needed I have not lost a case to splitting.

Speaking of Bullseye in the larger cases; many have great concern over the possibility of a “double charge” of powder in a case. I have found that the loads I use with the lighter weight bullets are almost always less than half of the “max” load anyway. Thus it would take a triple charge of powder for the psi to become excessive. I have also developed a loading habit with such reduced loads in addition to the most often recommended “visual check”. That habit is with the use of the loading block. I do not put a case in the loading block unless it has been charged with powder PERIOD!!!! I use small boxes or plastic “bins” to hold the cases while cleaning, inspecting, sizing and priming them. Never, ever do I put the case in a loading block until the one powder charge is put in (usually with the Lyman 55 but occasionally with dippers) and I do the visual after charging and before putting the case in the loading block. When loading reduced loads on the Dillon 550B I take the case out of the shell plate at station 3 and visually inspect for the powder level. Yes, that slows me down a bit but better safe than sorry.

Bullets; for reduced loads here for my purposes I am referring to bullets under 300 gr in weight. At 300 gr in weight a slower burning powder such as Unique becomes a bit more beneficial than Bullseye and will give better ballistics at upwards of 1400+ fps. Such loads above 1050 fps are outside the realm of my idea for such small game, plinking and light target shooting. Such heavier loads fall into the lighter weight target shooting and medium game capacity. I will note that one load I do use with the Rapine 460250 bullet loaded over Bullseye does overlap slightly into this arena. I do have a couple reduced loads using 390 – 405 gr bullets in the 900 – 1100 fps range but seldom even consider throwing that much lead when the lighter bullets do as well if not better.

Many years ago I worked with RBs (Hornady’s .457s to be exact and some cast with a Lyman RB mould). While I found them satisfactory for short range work to 25 yards they many times left a lot to be desired past 25 yards. I generally TL’d them in LLA and seated them over 2 – 5 gr Bullseye. I tried them seated at the case mouth and seated down on the powder. While seating them deep on top of the powder improved the internal ballistics greatly it really never did much for accuracy improvement. I always felt that the .457 RBs in the .458 H&Rs and the .461 M1884 barrel was probably the culprit. As I shoot RBs with very good accuracy to 50 yards in other cartridges with RBs that are at or slightly over groove diameter the undersized RBs in the TDs just didn’t impress me and I moved on.

I know some of you use the “collar button” bullets and many years back I did try them but only on the 50 ft indoor range. Have to say they worked very well there over Bullseye but I don’t have any record of the exact load. I do recall it was between 3 and 5 gr of Bullseye though. I will defer to others for better knowledge on those bullets. Only reason I didn’t pursue the CBs was because the ones I had were commercial (40-1 alloy from the old Liberty Cast Bullet Co from the Portland, OR area) and I had the Rapine 460210HB mould on order.

Ah, the Rapine 260210HB cast bullet…..now there is an excellent bullet for what we are talking about! It has a very short RNFP with a full diameter shoulder up front. It has a very long thin skirt with a deep conical HB. The length of the bullet gives it excellent stability in the slower TD barrel twist and the thin skirt ensures expansion and obturation with the lightest of loads. It is easily possible to over load it and blow the skirt, ruining accuracy, on muzzle exit. I worked it from 5 gr of Bullseye up through 9 gr with and without a dacron wad (back before I knew better). I quickly found that the dacron wad was not needed at all and that 6 gr of Bullseye gave it 910 fps out of the 29 ½” barreled TD. The bullets were seated with the Lee seater with the seating plug turned over so the flat part pushed on the FN of the 460210 during seating. Again I seated them so the leade engraved about 1/3 the front driving band when chambered. The taper crimp die was used to just straighten out the case mouth. Ten shot accuracy ran under 2” at 50 yards all day long. I most often used the bullets sized .4615 and lubed with my BP lube as that was best suited for both the larger groove M1884 barrel and the H&Rs with .458 barrels. An alloy with minimal antimony that is balance with tin or no antimony and is soft is better for even obturation of the skirt.

Exception mentioned; when traveling I many times take a Lee press (Lyman tong tool works as well as does the Lee decapping rod), a Lee hand priming tool, LR primers, some Bullseye and a dipper that throws 6 gr Bullseye along with extra bullets. “As cast” of the 460210 Rapine bullet is .463 - .464 with range lead alloy as described above. When TL’d with LLA they many times are easily thumb seated in the case and held there by slight neck tension. All I do is deprime, reprime, charge with one dipper of Bullseye, thumb seat the 460210 and they are ready to shoot. That is handy when sitting in camp plinking.

The slightly RNFP and full caliber shoulder of the Rapine 460210 bullet when cast soft like that and pushed along at 900 or so fps makes for a deadly small game load. Not a lot of meat damage (let’s face it a .460 caliber hole going through a squirrel, rabbit or grouse is going to damage some meat!) and excellent terminal effects. I shot a hapless coyote at about 35 – 40 paces who wondered by me once. The 460210 went through both front shoulders and lodged under the hide on the off side. The bullet had completely expanded donut rolling back on itself. ‘Yote jumped about 3’ in the air and made it 10 – 15’ in 6th gear overdrive before nose rolling to a dead stop (pun intended). But alas Rapine is out of business……the 460210 and other Rapine moulds no longer available unless someone takes on “honcho” duties and gets one custom made…….is my choice for indoor target/plinking and small game foraging out to 75 – 100 yards.

I tried a lot of pistol bullets (45 Colt & Webley 250 – 280 gr HB) in the 230 – 300 gr range. These were HB’d and PP’d. The HB’d always were grossly undersized for the M1884 barrel and didn’t shoot all that well and PPing for a plinking bullet grew tiresome real fast……..thus I got a Rapine 460250 RNFP mould. I was immediately happy with it and ordered another mould cut the same time as the first mould was. Both moulds throw identical bullets of 270 gr out of the range lead alloy. They drop at .461 and with both two cavity moulds going I can cast a lot of them quickly. I’ve got 300 WW cases I load them in and load them on the Dillon 550B. I worked the load from 6 gr upwards of 9,5 gr and settled on 8 gr of Bullseye with no wad or filler. I seat theses so the case mouth just covers the top lube groove and the taper crimp die again just straightens out the case mouth flare. This load gives 1050 fps +/- out of both H&Rs and 1140 fps out of the longer barreled M1884 TD. Accuracy out of all three TDs runs 1 ½ - 2 moa all day long. Again they are usually lubed with my BP lube but LLA works very well also.

I have shot the 460250 to 500 yards with outstanding accuracy. It is amazing how well that bullet holds up at longer range I could tell you a story about shooting alongside “Frank” (SF operative well represented in “Blackhawk Down”) with his tricked out SOTIC M24 at and SF training session in NE Oregon. I was shooting the H&R LBH Carbine with this load at a steel plate around 8x12” welded on a steel fence post out at 385 yards. Took me 1 sighter to get on and after the 1st shot Frank say; “bet you can’t do that again”. Well, 3 or 4 hits later Frank is shaking his head and I hit it 9 times straight before he said; “let me try”! And with that the M24 worth thousands of $s went neglected……….

I have played with the Lyman 457191 (290 gr) and the RCBS 45-300-FN (PB’d one) with 7.5 – 8.5 gr of Bullseye and they do as well in the H&Rs with .458 barrels. However, they don’t do as well “as cast” at .458 - .459 as the .461 Rapine in the larger M1884’s .461 barrel obviously because they are smaller than groove diameter. I also don’t get finicky about the alloy used with the 460250s as long as the antimony content is not too high. Too high an antimony content, especially with a real low tin % can easily result in an antimony wash in the longer barrel. This generally cleans out easily but if leading is also occurring it can be problematic. Also if you are depending on any “bumping up” obturation to seal the bore a lesser amount of antimony balanced with tin in a soft alloy is better. A 30-1 or 40-1 lead – tin alloy is even better.

One last load to mention here is my “foraging” shotshell load. Again I start with a well fire formed case with any make working fine. Prime with a standard LR primer, charge with 10 gr Unique, push a ½ gr dacron wad down over the powder (I use the eraser end of a pencil) and push/seat a Federal 410SC shot cup firmly on top of the wad of dacron. I use the same pencil to push/seat the shot cup. Fill the shot cup with shot (I prefer 8 ½ or 9 but # 7 works also, just remember the larger the diameter of shot the less dense the pattern will be). Set a .45 cal GC or a hard .010 or thicker .460+ diameter card disk upside down on top of the shot level with the case mouth. I use a 45 ACP 230 RN j bullet set on top of the over shot wad to hold in place just below the case neck while crimping the case mouth to hold it all sans the 45 cal bullet of course. A seating die that will roll crimp is needed. Adjust the seating dept so that when a good roll crimp is applied to the case mouth while the 45 ACP bullet is holding the GC or wad under the crimp. Crimp the case mouth sufficiently to hold the GC/wad in. This load runs right at 1160 fps out of my H&R Carbine. Out of the rifled barrels the shot pattern will “donut” as the range increases. I’ve found this load capable of taking quail, grouse and rabbits effectively out to about 20 yards. It can get “iffy” past that depending on the size of the game. If “foraging” the object is food so “sporting” takes a second seat. Thus I don’t have any qualms with ground sluicing the quail or grouse. Just mentioning the loads and use, not discussing the legality.

Anyways, those are my most often used loads. I’ve probably rambled on enough so let’s get on with specific questions and additions any of you have. I can take measurements and post pictures if you want (?) along with more details to answer specifics.

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Larry this is awesome....simply awesome. I'm going to have to re-read it several times to fully comprehend it all. But when I've done that...be prepared for a barrage of questions. Would you object to me printing out the information...strictly for my own use...and keeping a copy in my data notebook? Just in case something would happen to the website and (God forbid) we should lose the post. I'll have to get my girlfriend to show me how...comepletely computor illiterate here...but shall await your permission first. In the interim I've got my blackboard handy...jotting down copiuos notes....mainlining caffine into one arm and hoping I get a break from the 6 nights a week schedule I'm currently on. And again many thanks for taking the time to do all this for us. Audie.....the grateful Oldfart..

[M-Tecs]

Larry

Thanks again for posting these. Truly awesome!!!!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

Go ahead and print it, nothing really propriety there just using casting/loading techniques I've picked up along the way from others that work for me. Enjoy.....

Larry Gibson

[historicfirearms]

This has to be a sticky.

I'd also like to be in on the group buy for those Rapine molds.

[Doc Highwall]

Rapine molds has closed down, I heard he retired.

[oldfart1956]

Well Larry you certainly have come thru for us. And many thanks for permission to print this up and tuck it into my 45/70 data. I'm sorry it's taking me so long to get back...work schedule and doing a lot of casting right now. Sunday morning is about the only time I have and I'm on the range at 9 am. Anyways, I'm spending some time outlining questions so I can ask them in a linear fashion and not go twaddeling about willie nilly. I guess I'll start with cases. I've seen no mention or support in the post concerning annealing. I haven't done it...seems a bit too haphazard to me and I'd probably gammohooch it up. I have considered the "dip it in melted lead" idea. Figgered if I held the cases I'd soon find out when it's hot enough, but figgered I'd ask first. Now, mind ye, I've been loading and reloading these same 50 cases since...1980 something. I've never had one split. I've boogered up 3. (hit the durn die when I ran the ram up) And lately....I been loading them cases a lot! :) Not heavy loads...usually under 1100f.p.s. with an occassional...bit more. As you know I've stopped using black powder. Did it for 20 years...ain't doin' it no more. Every coupl'a loadings I run them thru the Lee case trimmer just to make sure they're all the same. Then a quick touch with the champhering tool inside and out. Just a touch. And I always clean the lube out'a the mouths before reloading. I have noticed more case neck tension on the Winc. cases vs the R.P cases...go figger? All test loads are with one maker of case as well. (either all R.P.'s or all Winc.) I gather you are reccomending enlarging the primer flash hole for light loads and fast (Bullseye...who'd a thunk it??) powders. I may do that for the Winc. cases and keep them seperate for such. How come you never mentioned Lymans Neck Size Only dies for the 45/70? Track of The Wolf has em' and it'd have saved me spending 3 days honing out an RCBS F.L. die...dadgummit! I tried backing out the RCBS and kept snapping off the de-prime pins cause it flops around when ya do that. Oh...and found out gunk builds up under the rim of the ca'tridge and affects o.a.l. when you chamber it. Gotta run Larry....neighbor called..dog loose. Later my friend. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Audie

Well Larry you certainly have come thru for us. And many thanks for permission to print this up and tuck it into my 45/70 data. I'm sorry it's taking me so long to get back...work schedule and doing a lot of casting right now. Sunday morning is about the only time I have and I'm on the range at 9 am. Anyways, I'm spending some time outlining questions so I can ask them in a linear fashion and not go twaddeling about willie nilly. I guess I'll start with cases. I've seen no mention or support in the post concerning annealing. I haven't done it...seems a bit too haphazard to me and I'd probably gammohooch it up. I have considered the "dip it in melted lead" idea. Figgered if I held the cases I'd soon find out when it's hot enough, but figgered I'd ask first. Now, mind ye, I've been loading and reloading these same 50 cases since...1980 something. I've never had one split. I've boogered up 3. (hit the durn die when I ran the ram up) And lately....I been loading them cases a lot!

While I do anneal some cases they are all bottle necked cases, never had a need to anneal any 45-70 cases. I also have some R-P cases that I’ve been using since the mid ‘70s which have been loaded and shot I don’t know how many times with some very heavy loads and hard crimps out of my Siamese Mauser 45-70. I’ve lost a few of them and some nickeled R-P cases from slightly split case mouths fired in the TDs from using a heavy roll crimp. Since going to the taper crimp die and just straightening the case mouth out I can’t remember when the last case mouth split. So, I’ve not even thought about annealing.

BTW; when I do anneal I use a Lee case trimmer holder in an electric screw driver to hold the case and spin it while I heat the neck/shoulder area with a propane torch to proper color and then quench in cold water to cool the case so it can be changed right away. That method is fast and easy and I’ve annealed a lot of bottle necked cartridges very successfully that way.

Not heavy loads...usually under 1100f.p.s. with an occassional...bit more. As you know I've stopped using black powder. Did it for 20 years...ain't doin' it no more. Every coupl'a loadings I run them thru the Lee case trimmer just to make sure they're all the same. Then a quick touch with the champhering tool inside and out. Just a touch. And I always clean the lube out'a the mouths before reloading. I have noticed more case neck tension on the Winc. cases vs the R.P cases...go figger? All test loads are with one maker of case as well. (either all R.P.'s or all Winc.) I gather you are reccomending enlarging the primer flash hole for light loads and fast (Bullseye...who'd a thunk it??) powders. I may do that for the Winc. cases and keep them seperate for such.

I do recommend uniforming the flash holes as per Spence Wolf’s method. The slightly larger flash hole lets the flame get into the case much quicker with a larger flash area to ignite the smaller amounts of fast burning powder lessening the effect of “powder positioning”. It has absolutely no detrimental effect of raising the psi with full powered medium burning powders, especially those psi’s at TD levels. If all I was going to use was my light Bullseye loads I would drill the flash hole out with a #28 drill to get the flash to the powder as quick as possible with the largest flash signature as possible. I do that with other cartridges with cases that are “dedicated” to such light loads. But alas, I have not yet “dedicated” any 45-70 cases to only those light loads. Actually it may or may not be any real measureable benefit with the drilled flash holes ala Wolf with smokeless powders but “think” they shoot better so it makes me more confident..........

How come you never mentioned Lymans Neck Size Only dies for the 45/70?

Mentioned the Lyman Short NS die in Part II. It’s the die used whenever I mention NSing cases which is what I most often do.

Track of The Wolf has em' and it'd have saved me spending 3 days honing out an RCBS F.L. die...dadgummit!

Ooooops!

I tried backing out the RCBS and kept snapping off the de-prime pins cause it flops around when ya do that. Oh...and found out gunk builds up under the rim of the ca'tridge and affects o.a.l. when you chamber it.

I had the same problem with the RCBS die when I tried to just partial size. With the solid pin in the Lee FL die I didn’t have the problem. However, the Lyman short NS die is the way to go. I deprime and clean the cases and inspect them for debris inside after cleaning.....amazing what can get into those cases and stay there even after cleaning!!!!

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Larry thanks for clarifying on the Lyman Neck die. See...that's why I need to print this all out. I go back and review all the info then by the time I get to page 3 I forget what I read. (Golden years my hindermostparts.) So back to cases. Larry at present I'm sizing to .463+ (lapped Lee 405h.b.) and using a .462 expander (from Track) and getting excellent neck tension. A pulled down load shows little to no swageing of the boolit. (Lyman #2...a bit hard but I have lots of it) I fired 20 rounds testing lube on Sunday and the rounds were not crimped...just straightened out. Presently I can slip-fit a new boolit in them cases with very little effort. Almost no neck tension. So I'm just wondering...maybe I could hone that Lee boolit sizing die out just a smidge more to .464...eh? My reason would be I'm getting just the lightest bit of leading forward from the chamber to about 6in. up the barrel. I suspect the previous owners never shot a cast boolit thru this TD and the bore might be a bit loose forward of the chamber. I slugged it and it's .461+ overall but the slug gets easier at the chamber end. I realize I have to allow some margin for neck expansion at time of release so don't want to overdo this. Your thoughts? I don't want to wander too far from just case discussion but want to mention I have tried softer lead (50/50 Lyman #2 and pure) and the leading was considerably worse. Going softer also causes the boolits to drop slightly smaller...which means I'll have to lap a bit more if that's the answer. Now mind you I'm not talking excessive leading but after 5 shots I run a patch and holding it just right can see small slivers of lead. I haven't gone beyond 5 shots without patching but presume this would soon bugger my groups. Using Felix lube at present but I do have some beeswax/olive oil 50/50 on hand. Unique powder....11 to 11.7gr. and leading gets noticably worse above 11.7 grains. Thanks again for your time and efforts. Audie...the Oldfart. P.S. I hope to get to powder discussions soon...nearly bawled when you said Unique wasn't working well for you. I have Bullseye/Universal/2400/Trailboss/4759 on hand but hoping to eliminate all except Unique from my bench. Tried 3031...twice...dumped it in the flowerbed. Got tired of driving boolits from the barrel. (2 of 10) I couldn't even get that stuff to ignight. Poured whole charges of unburnt powder out of the chamber.

[Larry Gibson]

If your barrel is .461 you might want to make a chamber cast. There's not much "throat" in TD chambers so the chamber mouth might be scraping lead off the .463 bullets as the bullet enters the small throat depositing that as "leading" just in front of the chamber. That's what it sounds like to me as the harder you push the bullet, or the softer the alloy, the more the bullet base obturates before entering the throat and lead is getting scraped off. By lapping the sizer and using a larger bullet you may exasperate the problem. The larger bullet is going to also offer more resistence as the front gets sized down to .461 by the barrel and the back of the bullet is going to obturate as much as it can by the pressure behind it.

Not that I like to see a grown man cry but.........I suggest, before lapping and using a larger bullet, you think about trying a slower powder like the 2400 or 4759 you have to give bullet a gentler push into the barrel before it obturates. I was never satisfied with Unique under bullets heavier than 300 gr. Seems 2400, 4227, 4759 or 5744 always made the 350 - 385 gr and heavier bullets shoot so much nicer....and easier. BTW; a dacron filler with the 2400, 4759 and even 3031 will make them all ignite and burn a lot more efficiently.

Sometimes trying to make something convenient can easily create and lead to other problems......life is just that way sometimes..........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Larry thanks for the return. Hadn't thought about the throat in the TD chambers...hmmm. Are you thinking a Cerrosafe casting? I read somewhere about using a case filled almost to the top and then placing a soft smaller dia. boolit in the case, chambering it and using a solid ramrod hammering the boolit from the muzzle to expand it into the throat. (Imagine a loaded cartridge waaaay too long inserted in the chamber) Sounds a bit brutal to me...might be better off ordering some Cerrosafe or do a sulfer casting? I'll have to work on that. Well, on to possible powders....although I might drag you back to cases again at some point. Larry I tried the 2400 one time with 20gr. if memory serves, The group was actually quite good! I was so paranoid about pulling the trigger I don't recall if I had leading at that point and didn't write down any data as I thought it best to avoid 2400 after reading of the dismanteling of a T/C Contender with it. (took 10 minutes for the scope pieces to fall back to earth...) But I do see some here have used it with good results. I've found precious little other use for 2400 at the levels I shoot at so mebbe I need to rethink it. And the spector of dacron has me at a loss. It makes sense to me but the pro's seem to be right along with the cons. I do trust your judgement however and I have a One Cartridge book that clearly states to use it from the manufacturers. I do have the dacron as well. Much to think about my friend. Would you reccomend a starting load with 2400? Recoil vs accuracy will determine how far I extend the load. Well Larry so much to cover and so many questions yet to ask. Hoping on Thursday when the girlfriend arrives she can coach me on printing this up. Until time permits then, I am in your debt. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Using 2400 with the 400 gr cast and the dacron filler start at 18 gr and work up to 21 gr. Suggest you use a chronograph if available and stop at 1300 fps.

Larry Gibson

[plainsman456]

I had the chance to fondle one of the trapdoor rifles and work up some loads for it using trail boss powder.

I bought a mold from here,made by accurate molds and it casts 456.5 and weights 325 grains.

I was worried because it was gas checked mold but went ahead any way.

I used range scrap with some 8 inches of 95/5 for fill out.
The cases were Hornaday and the primers were from CCI,the lube was some from a half empty tube of that moly Lyman sells,applied by hand.

I have to admit i was some what worried about what would happen,but i was worried for nothing.

The sights were close at 50 yards,just a tad high but at a far greater range like 600,the elevated rear was close to a 2 foot tumble weed.
I was having so much fun i had the brother in law shoot it as well as my wife.

She will not be upset if one of these rifles comes my way in the future.


This and other things you have wrote,mainly the use of fillers,has helped a bunch.


Keep it up.

[oldfart1956]

Using 2400 with the 400 gr cast and the dacron filler start at 18 gr and work up to 21 gr. Suggest you use a chronograph if available and stop at 1300 fps.

Larry Gibson Many thanks again Larry. I'm spending some time reading the sticky from badgeredd in the Cast Boolits section to further understand the throat/leade situation. As well I will set up the chronograph on my next trip to the range with the 2400/dacron loads. Haven't chrono'd much so far with the TD but since I'm getting closer on accuracy I rekkin' it's time. Have to go back home this Sat. (Mothers Day) but have a groundhog hunt planned for Memorial Day weekend up in Franklin, Pa. and them hogs is in trouble up to 100yds. or just a smidgin' more. I'll stop back as time permits as we haven't even got finished with the case prep business yet. Hopefully this upcoming Sun. morn I'll loft a few of the 2400's downrange and get back with a report. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Best to your other half on Mother's Day and enjoy the hog hunt........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Well Larry....I'm back!:) Preping cases today for the 2400 loads. Got some dacron cut and ready. I'm assuming you cut the dacron in strips and just want it to set on the powder and boolit base proper. No compression in other words. I also rooted around in the re-melt bucket and found some of the .462 boolits from a previous session so I'll be loading .462's and .463's as well. (That's gonna be a bugger if I oversized that Lee sizer and now have to make it smaller.) Oh well, Track's got em' in .460 and that's what I started with. Once I settle on a size I'll order a sizing die for the Lyman 450 in the correct diameter. This lubeing by hand sux. GAARRHH! Larry for case expanding I went with the Lee expanders from Track (have .460&.462) and neck tension seems...robust. Have the Lyman M die as well but it's woefully inadequet for this job. Way too short for boolits this long. I'm going to make up a dummy round and take it to work tonight and use the scales to see how much it takes to dislodge the boolits...I suspect more than 30lbs. at a guess. I can thumb-start em' up to the first (bottom) lube groove though so they seem to be going in proper. Using the .462 expander at present. Also need to find the #28 drill bit for them flash holes. I hope to be shooting on Sun. morning. Didn't shoot this past Sun. so's to give the neighbors a break on Mothers Day. And I need to find that chronograph....and the tri-pod. Ohh..and make targets up. You'd get a hoot out of my targets Larry. See, got a bit of a vision problem and cain't hardly see them 8in. white bulls so now I make a target shaped like an upside down pyramid or triangle. It's 20 inches wide (not a typo) and 10 inches top to bottom. I can see it puddy good at 100yds.!! :) The shape helps me find left/right real well. I still can't tell if I'm at the bottom or 3 inches below...but I'm good left to right! Well Sir, time to get reloading. Audie....the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

I'm assuming you cut the dacron in strips and just want it to set on the powder and boolit base proper. No compression in other words......excellent assumption but mild comression doesn't hurt anything as long as the dacron fills the air space and is not tamped down as a wad.

Try backing the FL die out to just size the cases enough so the .462 expander is a hard hand push into them. You might be oversizing the necks and they are springing back quite a bit.

Don't drill the flash holes with the #28 drill if you are using 2400 or slower powder with the dacron filler; it isn't necessary. The #28 drilled flash holes work best with light bullets over faster burning powders w/o a filler.

Bullshop can make an H&I sizer for your 450 for .462 or what ever.

Also if you run across an older TC Maxi/Minie' ball luber pick it up. The green one anyway as it is .45 caliber and works much better than hand lubing. The red one is .50 cal and you can see how well it lubed the MaxiBall. Very quick too and I refill the tube with my own Beeswax/olive oil lube and knead it while lubing "as cast" cast bullets....works great. Too bad TC doesn't make it anymore.......

70455

Got a bit of the old eye problems these days myself. What ever target works is fin for me. I'm probably going to 8 or 10" black squares myself instead of the 6 or 8" bullseye for 100 yards use.........or put a scout scope on my TDs....now wouldn't that be a trip! Ole Jeff would probably role over in his grave.........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Thanks for the feedback Larry. Should have mentioned the #28 drill would only be used for the super-light loads and lighter boolits and cases dedicated for that. Got tied up yesterday so starting work on the brass in the morning after work. And, like you, thought about a scope....have an EER Nikon 2X8 with b.d.c. but....I just don't have the heart to do it. Wonder if a feller could hack off a piece of that pictinny rail stuff and mount it on the hole(s) already there for the rear sight? Mount a UltraDot? I did find a tang sight in the junk drawer....looks to be an old T/C one. No windage adjustment though....rats. Kinda hard to drift that front sight...ehh? Gotta run. Audie....the Oldfart..

[SchuetzenMiester]

I have heard about a Weaver base being used in the existing holes on a TD for long eye relief scopes. I haven't done it myself.

[Larry Gibson]

I have heard about a Weaver base being used in the existing holes on a TD for long eye relief scopes. I haven't done it myself.

That would be my idea also.....and a small Burris Fastfire might be very good on it and not too obnoxious looking..........

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Well Larry.....I'm back. :) I got out to the range on Sunday morn with a box full'a loads and took the chronograph. Fortune didn't favor the chrono due to constantly shifting winds and mixed sun&clouds. See, the range I use is a wide path cut thru the woods with lots of trees and such...target butts at 25/50/75 and 100yds. The trees leafed out now shifting in the breeze and changing sunlight were messing with the chrono and giving odd readings. I suspect it was measuring the leaf speed at times. Anyways, made up loads with the 2400&dacron in 18/19/19.5 and 20gr. using the 405 boolit. Groups at 100yds. were acceptable with the 18gr. loads but nothing noteworthy. About 4 inches. As you fortold leading (or the lack of it) has greatly improved. I really had to look for it and am pleased with that. But Larry that recoil level is climbing back up. I got thru 10rds. of the 18gr. loads but balked after shooting 10 of the 19gr. loads. Them 19.5/20gr. loads are getting pulled. Yep...I'm a *****. I ain't takin' a poundin' like that to shoot paper or kill groundhogs. I don't doubt in better conditions the groups might warrant it. Eyes were giving me fits yesterday. But I did discover something else and wish to cover a bit of that ground with you Larry on my next post. More coming up. Audie...the battered Oldfart..

[oldfart1956]

Back again. Larry while rummaging thru the box of molds I found a Lee 90373 (.457/325gr.) and Sat. morning cast just enough to note the size (.458) and then lapped the mold out to .462. I figger one way to drop recoil and yet maintain group size is to go lighter. You, of course, mentioned the lighter boolits and the success you've had with them. This particular mold wasn't mentioned...but I had it on hand and it wouldn't seem to fit anything else. Single cav. with 2 lube grooves and a nice flat nose...looked good. I then cast up about 50 and they looked good, well filled out and dropped nice. Lubed in Felix and chased thru the (now) .463 Lee sizer which did little more than wipe the excess lube off. I then loaded these nearly warm boolits over 10/11gr. of Unique and 14gr. Trailboss and....21gr. of 2400 with dacron. Hmmm? Remember the recoil mentioned in the previous post? Not an issue with the (now) 330gr. boolits. Seems a 75gr. drop in weight shouldn't matter that much..but it does. The groups using 2400 did well, under 2in. with a flyer on the first (patched bore) shot. I'm finding almost no sign of leading with the 330gr. boolits. The 10gr. Unique keeps dropping in a 1 1/2in. to 2in. group...again with a first shot flyer which I assume is due to the clean bore. The 11gr. Unique had 3 touching and the other 2 opened the group to 2 1/2 inches with each 5 shot group. The TrailBoss loads were unremarkable but acceptable at 4 inches. But this has me now thinking. The boolits had no time to age, were not water dropped. Lyman #2 alloy as all the others. I shot them 24hrs. after casting. I'm starting to really like the 330gr. boolits. Considerably less recoil. I may need to buy one of the molds you mentioned in 300gr. status. Great....2 boxes of molds laying here and I'm buying molds. (sigh...) Also, I'm beginning to think I may need to soften some of the Lyman #2. Once these age harden I could have some issues. Well Larry give me some advice and share your thoughts as you have so kindly done. The casting pot is sitting on the table and now is the time to make adjustments. And again thanks for your patience and excellent advice. Audie...the Oldfart...

[Larry Gibson]

Audie

Sounds like you're discovering, as I did, the joy of using the lighter weight cast bullets in the TD. Unique would have been the 1st powder I would have used with that 330 gr bullet and your results solidifies that choice. It should be a good load and I wouldn't use a filler (assuming you didn't?) either. With the 300 gr RCBS FN (PB'd one as there is a GC'd one with the same nomclature) or the Lyman 457191 (290+ gr) I would probably opt for Bullseye powder and keep the velocity under 1100 fps for a very pleasant and accurate load.

Your 1st round flyer may just be a oddity of TDs, especially if it consistently goes high?

Larry Gibson

[oldfart1956]

Hmmm....how'd you know? First shots...usually high and left. Not horribly out of the groups but enough to make a 1 1/2in. group into a 4 incher. And powder selection didn't seem to matter. Go figger? I rekkin' I'll know enough to shoot the first shot before chasing them groundhogs. :) I'll start checking around on molds when I get back from up north this weekend Larry. Managed to print off most of this topic and keeping a folder and need to take time to highlight some advice to I don't keep repeating questions. As for the Unique, nope no filler. But oddly enough one of my data sources did reccomend dacron with the lighter Unique loads. I think it's the One Book-One Load but will have to check. I've never heard of that and you've not reccommended it so I didn't do it. Unique is puddy easy to ignight so don't foresee the need but what about steep downward shots? Getting off work at 6a.m. and before taking down the casting stuff (sitting on kitchen table) I'm going to drop a few more of the 330's and hopefully get the throat casting work done. I'm going to fill a damaged 45/70 case about 3/4 full of lead, and set it aside to cool......then make a lead cylinder and set it in of the case (think of a really long boolit) and chamber it. I'll slide that Belding&Mull range rod downbore with a bore guide and brass jag and gently tap to expand the cylinder. I think that will do what I want. Lead should still be puddy soft at that point. I'll let you know how that goes. And again...many thanks Larry. Audie...the Oldfart..

[Larry Gibson]

Hmmm....how'd you know?

Spence told me that many years back.....I found it to be the case.....HE was the TD expert........I'm just chopped liver compared to him......

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

Check out these two web sites on Spence's book.

http://4570book.info/

http://www.amazon.com/Loading-cartridges-original-Springfield-carbine/dp/157579019X/ref=pd_sim_b_4

[AggiePharmD]

Has anyone used a black powder substitute for the Goex and if so any particular brand work better? Also, would the charges be identical?

[Doc Highwall]

As good as the black powder substitutes are they suck in comparison to real black powder for accuracy.

I think if I was to try a black powder substitute I would try either 777 or Blackhorn 209 powder.

[hp246]

Has anyone used a black powder substitute for the Goex and if so any particular brand work better? Also, would the charges be identical?

I just picked up a H & R Officers Model 24" barrel that I intend to use for CAS Side matches. The gentleman I bought the gun from had already done quite a bit of load development based on Spence Wolf's book. He recommended the Lee 405 Gr. HB bullet behind 55 gr of Goex FFG or Cartridge BP. He told me he had had poor luck with modern smokeless powders. Since I don't want to re-invent the wheel, I'd like to use basically the same load he used. Have my bullet mold ordered, as well as Spence Wolf's book. The problem that I'm having is finding any BP other than the substitutes. Even most smokeless is hard to find in my area, but the substitutes seem to be pretty plentiful. Is there any data that has been worked up with the various equivalents that that should the differences in BP? Or should I just assume they are 1 to 1 equivalent?

[Doc Highwall]

They are a 1 to 1 equivalent as far a volume but the Pryodex and 777 are slightly more powerful then real black powder. I think they are about 10% more powerful then real black powder IIRC.

If I had to choose a substitute I think I would use 777 as a first choice.

[hp246]

Thanks Doc. The guy I bought the gun from said he was going 55 gr by weight, not volume, I specifically asked that question. Does that sound right?

[Doc Highwall]

Actually you are suppose to measure Pyrodex by volume not weight due to having a different density then Real Black Powder. Set your black powder measure to 55 grains, then see what it weighs with a scale and play with +/- that for your compression.

[hp246]

Found some FFG Goex a couple days ago. Loaded up a dozen or so rounds and hope to get out and shoot this weekend. If it stops raining. Have a couple extra dies ordered to make up a wolf 5 die set, but I just have to get out and shot this thing and make some smoke. Thanks again for the info Doc.

[pjames32]

Larry,
All I can say is WOW. Today has been a rainy day in NM and I've been in my reloading room too much the past week so I fired up the computer and found this thread.
As you know, I've been working on 45-70 loads. Today I learned much more than I could have expected. I'll be re-reading all of this so my old mind can absorb more of the information provided.
I want to thank you for your knowledge and experience and most of all the willingness and ability to share this with us.
I've been reloading for 45-50 years, but have never delved into specific load development other than my centerfire rifle hunting loads. I'm learning!
Paul James (PJ)

[Bjornb]

How about making this a sticky? It's a treasure trove of loading info not only for Trapdoors; I have had excellent results shooting several of Larry's loads in H&R Handi-Rifles and in my Buffalo Classic.

[M-Tecs]

+2 on making it a sticky

[oldfart1956]

Here's another vote for making this a sticky! Almost anyone that loads for the 45/70 can benefit from it, and for a new loader it answers about 99% of their questions. I printed up copies of it for in the load data book, another in the file cabinet. Gibson rocks. Audie..the Oldfart..

[JHeath]

Larry, you had me at "Tex Shively." I remember him from gun shows when I was a sixteen or so, he was about the same generation as my mentor Gordon Chrudimsky of The Dalles, they were acquainted. Gordon -- himself a character -- would sometimes shake his head over Tex being a character! I always pay attention to your posts. TDs never caught my interest but now I'll have to give them some thought. High quality thread.

[smoked turkey]

Good thread indeed. There is a lot to absorb here. Should be a sticky for sure.

[30calflash]

Back to the top. I've read this thru a few times and getting some lead cast this week.

I've some other loads to fire and will then use the info here to get started with my trapdoor.

Has anyone tried 1F powder either straight up or in duplex loads?

[Sheridan64]

Hi,

Lurked quite a while in here so finally signed up.

Things I've been utilizing lately.

31gr 3031 pushing a 406gr (actual 397) SRS gas checked, CCI Mag. Excellent accuracy and smacks steel with authority at 100y in both an 1881 M73 and a 1891 M84.
55gr Pyrodex 2F, same bullet, etc. 1-3in groups (50 - 100y), same guns.
11.5-15gr Unique, same bullet, CCI Lg Pistol primer. 2-3in groups, light recoil. However....tip it up prior to shooting to get powder to the base. You can see where it was laying along the length of the case if you don't.

Mild lead deposits, but nothing some Patch Out didn't take care of.

Montana Precision 405gr hollow base pushed with 55gr 2F Goex did not perform as well, despite the cost. Saving all Goex on hand for flinters now. Will play with Schutzen as I can get my hands on it.

Cleaning....patch and jag wetted with Windex, followed by Patch Out if running gas checks, followed by Ballistol.

Yes...windex. Three swipes and the fouling residue is gone.

Next project will be Missouri Buffalo 1s, bumped up with Lee Alox and fight the block flip problem in a H&R LBH I picked up.

Anyway, glad to be here.

[John in PA]

What a phenomenal resource this thread is for those of us still in love with the "Old Pumpkin-Roller!" Pure Cast Boolit Gold!

[steveu]

If you want to get the most from your TD with black powder you need to wipe between shots.
Contact beltfed for one of his flexible rods for the TD.

Cheers,
Steve

[cosmoline one]

Ive never used dacron filler but I'm inspired by this thread to try 45-70 w/2400 loads (18-21grs.) & 405gr boolits I've got a couple questions which might seem dumb but I just want to be sure:
1-I ordered Dacron fill but what arrived is poly fill low loft quilt batting (polyester batting in sm print on bottom) Is this the same as Dacron/OK to use? Is it just a trademark name but otherwise exactly the same?
2.-Am I cutting a piece wider than my case (45-70) to fill the space between powder & boolit?.
3-Is it OK to have airspce between dacron & boolit? (while keeping powder against primer)

[Larry Gibson]

"1-I ordered Dacron fill but what arrived is poly fill low loft quilt batting (polyester batting in sm print on bottom) Is this the same as Dacron/OK to use? Is it just a trademark name but otherwise exactly the same?"

Yes, polyester batting is Dacron.

"2.-Am I cutting a piece wider than my case (45-70) to fill the space between powder & boolit?."

Yes, You want to cut a chunk large enough to fill the airspace between the powder and bullet base.

"3-Is it OK to have airspce between dacron & boolit? (while keeping powder against primer)"

No, that is a "wad" which you do not want. A Dacron "filler" will fill the airspace completely between the top of the powder and the base of the bullet.

[cosmoline one]

Thanks for clearing that up I appreciate your experience

[smkummer]

Just read this all the way back to the beginning. And for a reason. Anyway, my 45-70 firearms are an Officers model H&R repro ( my first), a beautiful Marlin 1895 blued sporter ( 22”, 2/3 tube, Ballard rifling and pistol grip) and a modern Remington made rolling block with set trigger and spirit level sights. All these fire hard cast tumble lubed just fine with unique up to 15 grains. My most used bullet is Lyman’s 457192 intended for the 45/75 at 350 grains. My other bullet usually just used in the heavier rolling block is Lyman’s 457124 with that 15 grain charge unique. My main range is 200 yards so that’s why I go with the upper “Springfield” load.
Now I have 2 friends with original 1884 springfields, one is a 1891 made rod bayonet model. I found out soon that hard cast but unsized 385 gr. Lyman 457124 will tumble out of either gun. Lyman’s 45th edition manual states 10 grains unique is the accuracy load in the 32” barrel with 457124. Using 50/50 solder plus soft stick on wheel weights to come close to the 20/1 ratio, this proved to be true with about a 2” group out at 50 yards and the soft bullets air cooling. A few on the 350 grain hard cast bullets shot good but some tumbled at 15 grains unique so the plan is to air cool with wheel weight alloy and see if that fixes that bullet and maybe reduce the charge. Anyway, smokeless load development is in the beginning stages with the original 1884 models. We do have access to 2400, 3031, 4895 and varget. Also a little of trail boss too. That attraction to unique these days is because with tax, a friggen pound of unique and other powder is now up around $50 a pound!
Oh and Larry, did you ever just try shooting a 410 2 1/2” shell in your trapdoor?

[Larry Gibson]

"Oh and Larry, did you ever just try shooting a 410 2 1/2” shell in your trapdoor?"

Thought about it as I know it's been done for a long time but I haven't. I developed the load simply to duplicate (not to be confused with "replicate") a "foraging load similar to the original foraging loads. To shoot 410 shotshells in a TD would be, to me anyway, would be sort of sacrilegious.....