question for FFL's

[lonewelder]

I just bought two pistols while I'm working out of my home state.I had them shipped home to a local gun shop.They called to let me know they were there and I told them my wife would be there this afternoon.They said my wife could not pick them up,it had to be me.The problem is I may not be back home for six months or more.Is this the law or their policy.

[TJF1]

If they were shiped in your name you will have to do the paper work
or it would be straw buying. First guestion on the 4473 form.
Terry

[lonewelder]

That makes sense.I guess you answered that.Thanks

[Adam10mm]

If they were shiped in your name you will have to do the paper work
or it would be straw buying. First guestion on the 4473 form.
Terry
Not true. Not a straw purchase. Furthermore, if the wife were allowed by the FFL to have them run on a 4473 to her, if they were a gift to her she would answer No to the question "are you the actual buyer?". This does not disqualify her to receive the firearm. If you are the recipient of the gift of a firearm, you aren't the buyer, you are the transferee. Completely separate meaning. In nearly all firearm transactions, the buyer is also the transferee.

If the firearm buyer is present and is buying the firearm as a gift for a third party, then the 4473 should be run on the firearm buyer, not on the gift recipient and the question should be YES on the form. If the firearm buyer is not present and is buying the firearm as a gift for a third party, then the 4473 should be run on the gift recipient, not the firearm buyer and the question should be NO on the form. A notation made in the FFL notes field should be made as appropriate.

This is a store policy issue, not a legal issue. Been an 07 FFL since 2008 and dealt with this many times with the ATF. The ATF field office supervisor IOI ran an audit on me in May 2012 and confirmed it with me in person.

[farmallcrew]

LAW. They were shipped with your name on them. Not your wifes. Your name will be going on the paper work, not your wifes name.

Your name needs to be on every document, from start to finish, with you standing there filling it out. Not someone else, someone else fills it out and they are not the actual buyer, you go straight to the pokey, no passing go, do not collect 200.00 bucks, all you and here would get would be a orange jump suit and a loooong number on your back.

[41 mag fan]

Picked up a couple of firearms in my fathers name a few yrs ago. He bought them, seller didn't want to ship to IL. So they got shipped to my FFL dealer. He bought them, but i put them in my name, as when his time is near or his time has come, they'll be mine anyways.
Stupid laws anyways

[Case Stuffer]

Post 4 and 5 are great examples of why internet info is so darn confusing.

I held a Class 6 FFL for years but ceased business and turned in license and records around 30 years ago.

Post 4 by a current FFL holder sounds right 6to be but then I am not current. I ahve onbly purchased one firearm from a dealer in the past 20 years or so and that was point of sale retail by me and for me.



There is another thread going on about one wanting to get into jacketed bullet sells and more than enough conflicting post if this is required or not and do they really expect you to pay that much etc.,etc..

[Adam10mm]

LAW. They were shipped with your name on them. Not your wifes. Your name will be going on the paper work, not your wifes name.

Your name needs to be on every document, from start to finish, with you standing there filling it out. Not someone else, someone else fills it out and they are not the actual buyer, you go straight to the pokey, no passing go, do not collect 200.00 bucks, all you and here would get would be a orange jump suit and a loooong number on your back.
Again, you are misinformed.

[Reg]

You had better call your local BATF agent on this and perhaps talk to someone different this time.
According to the law, as written, farmallcrew is correct. You buy it, your name is on it, start to finish. Anything other than that and it is a strawman purchase and if you knowingly go along with this purchase, you ARE an accomplice and there are special laws to deal with you.
The BATF holds training clinics from time too time. Go to one, ask questions. If a agent says anything contrary to the written law you had better get it in his hand writing.
These laws are only going to get tougher as time goes on and are going to be in-forced more than ever before. I would never trust a telephone conversation with anyone especially when it goes contrary to the written word .

I held a license for over 30 years and this exact situation came up several times. Each time I called before doing anything and each time I was told that I could not make the transfer and was referred to sentence and paragraph in "the book".

[Adam10mm]

According to the law, as written, farmallcrew is correct. You buy it, your name is on it, start to finish. Anything other than that and it is a strawman purchase
OK, so then where is the law that says such?

[khmer6]

I think 10mm is right on this one. It can be gifted within immediate family but siblings can't. Even saw it once at cabelas, guy didn't have proper address on his drivers license. Son used his info, right there in front of the associate. In fact the associate even made a comment on start purchases. THAT it was not. Some ffls just don't simply allow.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Dang but all of this stuff is a pain. We need to keep fighting all of these laws.

[wool1]

64225

Question has to be answered YES....unless it is involving gunsmithing activities, then it can be skipped. Otherwise it can not be transfered. Being told the person picking up the gun is not the owner obligates the dealer not to transfering it.

[Adam10mm]

That however, does not address the current situation. The example on the back of the 4473 deals with the buyer and gift recipient both being present. This current situation is not as such, therefore it's irrelevant.

Yes it is legal to transfer a firearm to someone who answers "No" to 11a.

[wool1]

As per ATF refenence guide.....ATF Publication 5300.15

Prohibited Transfers

You MAY NOT sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition
to any person you know or have reasonable cause to
believe is prohibited from possessing or receiving a
firearm. Do not sell or otherwise transfer a firearm and
do not contact NICS if you have reason to believe that
a person seeking to obtain a firearm is prohibited from
receiving or possessing a firearm.

Note: If a person answers “No” to Item 11.a or 12 of
Form 4473, or answers “Yes” to one or more questions
in Items 11.b through 11.l of Form 4473, that person has
given you reason to believe he or she is prohibited and
the transaction must be stopped.

[Adam10mm]

Except in the case of a gift bought by a person in another state. That is the point you are missing.

[wool1]

Without going in to interstate purchases, it is not lawful to purchase a handgun across state lines. That is why it is transfered to a dealer in your state. So the receiving dealer has no knowledge of who "paid" for the handguns or firearm. It comes down to who picks the firearm up.....the transferee/buyer. The person picking it up filling out the 4473 then would answer YES as the actual transferee/buyer. It is word play. Even if they didn't PAY for the firearm, the term buyer, they are the person receiving the firearm from the dealer.....transferee. Not going into who is by law able to gift a firearm between family members. The ATF publications go into this as well, but is applied after the transferee takes possesion of the firearm.

Do business however you'd like. Meaning, I have no intention of arguing. The law is not the clearest of laws, like most firearm laws, but it is covered in the reference. I live and operate business in Illinois where IA, IL and MO meet so interstate business is common. I have only been a FFL holder for about 14 years now, I have two a Class 01 & 07, but have delt with this on numerous occations. My agents made a very complicated subject as clear as I needed it explained. Don't do it.

[Adam10mm]

I started with an 06 in 2006 and changed to an 07 in 2008. I've done a total of 17 of these very same transfers. The ATF IOI field office supervisor that audited me in May 2012 and went over every single 4473 I have said I did the right thing with every 4473 including all 17 of these transfers. I will continue to follow the direction the ATF has given me on this issue.

[lonewelder]

Thanks for all the replies.They said they would check into it for me.Never had a problem with the owner,but I guess the daughter is running the show now.It doesn't bother me to wait till I get back home,but.One is a 89yr old colt with excellent orig. finish.It has just the start of surface rust that will clean up if taken care of NOW.Hopefully I can talk to the owner.Thanks everybody.

[eljefe]

There is no way that I would ever transfer a firearm to someone who checked
no on 11a. I have been a dealer for 6 years, and have been through 3 audits.
The form even tells you how to transfer for gifts...see post 13. That is even
a part of the form, for heaven's sakes.

By the way, I don't care what your IOI says...I was told different information
from each IOI on each audit, often it was contradictory infomation.
If you go against the instructions on the form, prepare to do some
fancy explaining.

I do over 1,000 4473 forms annually...have never had this
come up.

[DCP]

Well lets see, say he wont be home for 6 mo and God forbid he gets killed. The ffl can never sell these guns?

I got to say this doesnt seem correct

[Adam10mm]

The form even tells you how to transfer for gifts...see post 13. That is even
a part of the form, for heaven's sakes.
Pay attention to what I posted. The instructions on the 4473 do not deal with the situation of a buyer gifting a person a firearm that are not in the same state at the time of the transfer. It only deals with the situation that both are in front of the FFL at the same time the firearm is transferred.

[eljefe]

"That however, does not address the current situation. The example on the back of the 4473 deals with the buyer and gift recipient both being present. This current situation is not as such, therefore it's irrelevant. "

How do you draw that conclusion? There is nothing on the form
that says the gift recipient and purchaser are both in front of the
ffl at the same time. In fact, that does not even make any sense.

Several years ago, Sarah Brady purchased a rifle from a dealer for
a gift for her son. It seemed like the perfect "gotcha" moment...
until the ATF clarified that purchase of a firearm to gift to another
is perfectly legal.

The situation the OP is in does not include a gift, either, so it is a
moot point. He was correctly told that he had to come in to do the
paperwork necessary to complete the transfer. He later indicates
that he has no problem doing so. It would not be legal for the licensee
to transfer the gun to his spouse simply for the sake of convenience.

The only reason I posted again is that I don't want folks on this board
to be misinformed with bad advice. I had two forms on my last audit
where the question was answered no. My IOI asked us to have the
transferee come into the store and bring said firearm with them.
Luckily, for me, both complied and I gave them something for helping
to correct my mistake.

[Adam10mm]

I've never had a bad form. I think the bigger issue is there is no consistency with the ATF. My IOI and field office say and advise contrary to yours.