Resizing die for 45 acp: why have i been using it?

[DrCaveman]

I was re-reading chapters in my reloading manuals about neck-sizing rifle cartridges after being fire-formed in my gun. Yeah, lee mostly.

Then thought, why not pistol cartridges? The case has expanded to fit my chamber, and obviously is big enough for my boolit, so why the full length resize?

I put a few 45 acp cases through the sizer die. It took 3-4 thousandths off the ID and OD at case mouth. Went from 451 ID to 448 ID. ***?

So I backed out my resizing/depriming die until it did nothing to the cartridges. Moved the decapper rod to still punch out the old primer.

Backed out the flare die until no flare. Boolit seated about the same as usual, with a little less resistance than usual.

Tried the plunk test... Pass!

Tapped the boolit tip hard on the bench... No change to OAL. So neck tension still seems pretty good.

Ran through the lee FCD with no crimp, just case sizing, and it did almost nothing. Cinched it down to provide the slightest crimp, and things seemed no worse.

My cases have almost perfectly straight walls now (no bulge), and my case working has been reduced to a minimum. As far as I can tell yet, my boolits are also not being sized down at all by the case or the FCD.

Does anyone else skip sizing their 45 acp cases? What problems am I failing to see?

I feel like I just stumbled into a method to achieve the reloading practices I hear so many here talk about, including neglecting crimp and minimal flare.

[Mk42gunner]

The only problem I can see with your particular components is if the boolit gets shoved back into the case when the round feeds from the magazine and hits the feed ramp. This would raise pressures. I would try putting one in as the second round in your magazine then see what happens after it is fed under normal conditions.

I have had factory 230 JHP's loose a noticable amount after being fed a few times in my 1911.

It may work fine, it may not.

Robert

[mdi]

Pistol brass needs to be returned to spec. mainly for neck tension on the bullet. Neck sizing is ok for bottlenecked cases, leaving the body of the case "as fired" to fit the chamber, but the neck is returned to spec. to hold the bullet, ie.; neck tension. 45 ACP "crimping" is only for straightening out the flare in the case mouth, not for holding bullet..

[W.R.Buchanan]

Do yourself a favor and just size your cases the way you're supposed to. People have been reloading the .45 ACP for nearly 100 years. If they didn't need to resize the cases they would have stopped long ago. Also the process for reloading this round , and virtually every other round, has been extablished long ago. This is not the time to re-engineer it.

Plus that, and I don't mean to sound offensive here, but you obviously don't understand all to the reasons behind the individual steps of the reloading process. There is more to this than is readily apparent.

I would suggest reading and re-reading the reloading instructions in Lyman 49 or any of the larger loading manuals until you do understand why you are doing what you are doing. Then I would suggest procurring another manual from a different company and reading and re-reading the instructions in that one to gain more insight from different perspectives. You can't know too much about reloading ammunition!

Please note: I said read and re-read the instructions.

NO ONE gets it all on the first read thru of a technical subject

To explain some of the issues briefly,,,

First: neck tension is necessary for two reasons, one is to hold the bullet securely during recoil and to prevent set back during chambering. The other is to retain the bullet and promote more complete burning of the charge.

Crimping does in fact hold the bullet as well, however the taper crimp is more about preventing the bullet from being pushed back in the case.

Last; when resizing the case you are providing clearance for the round to feed more reliably into the chamber. That .003 you ***'d is necessary for reliable feeding in an autoloader.

You are lucky that you are loading the .45 ACP round which is one of the most forgiving and low pressure rounds out there. If you were doing the .40S&W you would be setting yourself up for a blow up.


Like I said above,,, read, and re-read,,, until you understand.

Then you will be safe. We don't want anyone getting blown up here.

Randy

[DrCaveman]

Well I manually ran a few clips through the gun with the above described loading method, and there was no noticeable boolit setback. I remember reading here that about .003" neck tension is desirable...does that seem right?

If so, maybe my tension is a little light here.

I am kind of unsure about the 'in spec' concept here since I am loading cast boolits, not jacketed as the dies were designed for, and it is for my gun, not lee test equipment

Maybe I am using the wrongs tools, but I will shoot them as is (checking for boolit setback)

Any other concerns than 'my boolit might get pushed a little into the case'?

[DrCaveman]

Thanks randy, I was typing as you posted. Will re read those sections. That's why I bring my reloading manuals to work with me, break time reading!

[Sweetpea]

I've had a case let loose from a hot load with "just a little setback".

40 S&W, was NOT something I intend to repeat!

Thankfully I had a firearm that was made of STEEL, and after picking up the magazine, removing and reinstalling the grip panels, and a thorough inspection, everything was fine.

Thank God I was wearing safety glasses. I had bits of brass blow back onto my face, and I had numerous little wounds.

I'm quite sure eyes don't heal as easily as skin!

[r1kk1]

What are dimensions of the fired brass and fired brass using just the FCD? I'm curious.

Take care

r1kk1

[wv109323]

I think Redding already has dies that accomplish you are doing. Check out their on line catalog.

[DrCaveman]

What are dimensions of the fired brass and fired brass using just the FCD? I'm curious.

Take care

r1kk1

You inspired me to run a little test. My mic skills are not perfected so bear with me and take a little fudge factor into play

Brass: r-p fired (a bunch of times, never trimmed)
OD @ mouth: .4700-.4701"
ID @ mouth: .4505" (calipers used here since I don't have an inside micrometer. Ten thousandths is from averaging a few cases)

Boolit: lee 200 swc sized with 452 die. Actual diameter is about .4518"


Item #1
Unsized
Unflared
No FCD
No crimp
OAL: 1.23"
case OD now measures .4724"

Item #2
No sizing
No flaring
Run through FCD set for no crimp
OAL: 1.23"
Case OD now measures .4712"

Item#3
no sizing
No flaring
Run through FCD set to medium crimp (half turn)
OAL: 1.225" (apparently the FCD crimp pushed the boolit in a little...)
Case OD now measures .4707"

Item#4
full length sizing
Belling sufficient to seat boolit about .01" by hand
Run through FCD with medium crimp setting
OAL: 1.235"

Note: item #4 was loaded a few days ago, so I didn't get case OD after full length sizing. Nor was the boolit seating die set the same so I'm not sure if the FCD seated it deeper.

To test neck tension I loaded each individual round into a magazine and racked it. Did this 5 times for each round. Measuring after 5 rounds showed no setback with any rounds.

Tried locking slide back and slingshot release. Now I got a little setback from 1,2 & 3 but not 4. Item #2 at this point actually sunk into the case (yeah, more than a little setback). Others were within .01" of original OAL. After 10 forced loads.

Tried locking the slide back and hitting the slide "release". Now this seemed to separate the wheat from the chaff. Item #2 slipped way into the case, totally bad. Item #3 was inside the case after 3 hard racks with slide release drop. Item #1 took 5 drops of slide release for the front driving band to fall below the case mouth. Interesting.

As expected, item #4 survived the manual loadings without fail or setback. The slide release drops however took their toll, after 5 drops the OAL was down to 1.221" from an original 1.236"

ALL test rounds passed the plunk test, with what appeared to be ideal headspace. The only one which didn't fall freely back out of the chamber was item #1.

Almost all the manual loading went without problems, except item #2 gave me a 3-point jam (I think) during the manual racking. Even after items 1-3 set back into the case, they fed from magazines smoothly and everything went fully into battery every time.

NEXT

I pulled the boolits from each test round. Here is the diameter they came out at:

1: .4518"
2. .4510"
3. .4520"
4. .4514"

I just reslugged my barrel again since I lost my last slug and wasn't certain I measured it correctly. While I still can't be 100 sure I did it right, at least I feel confident I did it the same way as the rest of the measurements today.

Groove came to .4515"
Bore came to .439"

So I am looking at my standard load (item #4) as delivering a boolit undersized by 0.0001". Not too bad I guess, but why should I shoot undersized?

The unsized unflared boolits at least bought me another 4-6 ten thousandths, which is maybe all I can get.

I want to hone my sizing die to drop .4525-.453", but it seems like a waste when my dies and chamber are being so stubborn. Should I expect a larger boolit to make it through this whole process without being sized down?

The main goal of this whole exercise is to try to get bigger boolits into my barrel. Any help would be appreciated.

No, I'm not curing cancer here or a disaster with leading. I just want to see if I can improve accuracy and barrel condition after shooting. And abide by what y'all and the books say 'use boolits sized .001-003" over groove diameter."

Thanks

[TheDoctor]

Remember the slide cycle due to firing will be more forceful than anything you do manually.

[Firebricker]

It may work for you but I really can't see any advantage to not sizing I doubt you will see any accuracy increase which is the usual reason for neck sizing. If I'm reading your post correctly your not even neck sizing which will give you inconsistent boolit pull which will degrade accuracy. So just the chance of a boolit seating deeper and raising pressures would make me think way to much risk with no reward. One other thing to consider is your cartridges are going to react differently when your actually firing them. So good luck but use caution. FB

[Blanket]

Rock on, you have figured out the Zen that nobody has ever done before, Oh wait you are about to step on your crank. If you can tell the differance with what you are doing in group size, case life, and function knock yourself out

[DrCaveman]

Rock on, you have figured out the Zen that nobody has ever done before, Oh wait you are about to step on your crank. If you can tell the differance with what you are doing in group size, case life, and function knock yourself out

I should be able to tell tomorrow.

I really didn't think this was rocking the boat or reinventing the wheel. Just seemed like a worthwhile experiment, with the goal of replicating what others here claim to do... Shoot a .4525"+ boolit out of their 45.

Despite my casting success (getting boolits to drop at diameter expected) and successful run at loading 200 swc to feed consistently in my 1911, I want to shoot a lead boolit through my gun that is actually .4525" diameter when entering the barrel.

I can't find any particular redding dies to address this. Which dies were you thinking of wv109323?

[.357MAN]

The reason your test #2 and #3 failed early is because you sized the case with the FCD with a boolit in the case. Doing that will size the boolit that's in the case more than the case, resulting in less neck tension. The reason test #3 lasted longer than test #2 was because there was a crimp that held test #3 for a little longer. My explanation still doesn't explain why your boolits diameters are erratic. But if I had to guess, I would say that they all where sized down concentrically uneven ( I'm afraid I may have not worded that right). I guess I'm trying to say: if you measure the boolits again in 5-6 different places, then you may see that they where sized down unevenly around there circumference area.

Another thing, if you measure a case mouth that has no support (such as no bullet/boolit in it) the measuring device will squeeze the case mouth narrower than it actually is. I don't know if you knew that, just thought I'd say it.

To reduce excessive case working try using the FCD to do the sizing you normally do with the regular sizing die that is supplied in the die set (you know, the sizing before flaring and seating the boolit). Sizing with the FCD will give less neck tension than the original sizing die, but if you up the size of your boolits .0005"-.001" it should result in proper neck tension, as long as the FCD is not oversized. If you size the cases with the FCD, then you can't use the FCD to crimp the finished round, or it will size the boolit while in the case, and it will loose neck tension.

If you want to make your reloads the right way, you will need to get rid of the FCD's sizing in the crimping stage. So my complete recommendation is to do this test, and see if you like it. Start by sizing a case in the FCD (without a boolit in it, and don't put a crimp on the case), flare the case with the expander die, and seat a boolit in the case to your OAL specifications. Now comes the tricky technical, but cool stuff. Grab your FCD and take the depth adjuster knob and crimp ring out and set them aside for later use. Next, grab the expander die, and take the cap and expander plug out of it (that's why I told you to expand the case earlier) and set the die body aside for the next part. Now Listen carefully! Take the crimp ring along with the depth adjuster knob (the ones from the FCD that you set aside) and put them both into the empty expanding die body (the one you set aside), I will refer to this new die just made as "new crimp die"). As long as the dummy round will reach the crimp ring in the new crimp die, it should work for crimping as it is. But If the dummy round doesn't reach the crimp ring in the new crimp die, then you can make a flat shim for going in-between the depth adjuster knob and the crimp ring. The shim will extend the reach of the crimp ring so it will reach the case mouth. I suggest using a metal washer for a small shim, and a sawn off round bolt head (such as a allen wrench type bolt) for a large shim. The washer should be de-burred so it doesn't snag or hang up in the die (same for the bolt head), and it should have a big enough center hole to allow the bullet nose to poke through without interfering with the washer. The cut bolt head should be filed to be as square as possible, and if need be, the allen key hole drilled slightly for clearing the boolit nose. Now you should have a die that will crimp a round without sizing the case and boolit! And hopefully you don't have to mess with the shims. Now, crimp the dummy round (the one sized with the FCD, expanded, and has a boolit in it) with the new crimp die. Now, test the prepared dummy round. As long as the dummy round passes safety standards, it should be a close second in neck tension to your test #4.

I have done the crimp die modification in my dies, and it is way better then the FCD, as the new crimp die will not size cast boolits that are in the cases, and don't worry about the "bulged case" excuse that Lee gives for the FCD's original creation, that doesn't apply unless the round is roll crimped. Just do your safety checks for function and it should be fine.

The sizing empty cases with the FCD I think is a fairly unpublicized trick that I found on this site. It is usually only used in revolvers because of the possible reliability issues with semiautomatics (so be careful to ring it out in the testing), but it is really effective in reducing excessive case working and boolit sizing from excessive case tension. But if you have a really oversized FCD then it won't size the case enough for proper neck tension and/or reliable functioning. The best is if you can get a FCD that is undersized (say .001"-.002" over the ID of a regular sizing die), then it will be easer on cases and won't be too far out of specifications.

Just for laughs: You could get an M-die for 45-70, chuck it in a drill press, and bring it to the wanted diameter by using sandpaper. Measure often, and make the leading tip diameter larger if anything. Then set the M-die to enter the case the same amount as the length of the boolit that is inserted.

Have fun with your new crimp die configuration, and I hope the FCD case sizing trick helps you.

God bless.

[Char-Gar]

DrCaveman... It is not unusual for folks to show up on forums like this, have done some creative thinking and feel they have found a new and better mousetrap. Sometimes and they and sometimes they have not. All to often they forget the fact that what they are dealing with has the potential to be very dangerous that can results in serious injury. If the stars don't align right on any particular moment and on the 856th shot, things can go bad with serious consequences.

I posted a rather long and detailed answer to your post with numbers, measurements and so forth, but I thought better of that, so it was deleted. In it's place, I will just say the following;

I have been loading the 45 ACP round since 1960 and have loaded and fired over 1/4 million rounds of this ammo. I know how to produce accurate, reliable and safe 45 ACP ammo that will work to perfection in the autopistol of whatever stripe. Yours new method is not the way to do these things as it could have some unsafe consequences.

[DrCaveman]

.357man I appreciate you working with me here. Sizing cases with just the FCD, and crimping with something else, that sounds doable. I could prob just get a 45 acp taper crimp die instead of/if the expander die trick seems to work.

Char-gar, what say you about the safety of .357man's method? Also, can you provide any solutions to my boolit size concerns as succinctly as you cautioned against my current approach? Like: you should get dies made my xxx manufacturer? Or: swap out certain lee dies with other specialty dies?

If boolit fit is truly king for getting zero leading and top notch accuracy, then there must be a way to achieve it. I am not there yet and havent found any helpful answers in the reloading books. Rereading the section on case resizing did not provide any better insight than it did the first time.

Easy chambering? Check
Proper headspace (via smooth plunk flush with barrel hood)? Check
Long enough to load from mag? Check
Impervious to setback? Maybe not so much...

The harshest warning in the books was that ROUNDS PREPARED FOR AUTOLOADERS MUST ALWAYS BE CRIMPED! or you will die!

That very simplistic statement has been denied by several on this thread already, and countless times in other discussions on this forum regarding 45 acp.

Maybe there is another thread chock full of the answers I am looking for. The books don't have it.

I appreciate all the input from everyone and the concerns for my safety.

[Char-Gar]

Dr. Caveman...

1) I have no experience with the LEE FCD, but among knowledable handgun reloaders they have a bad reputation with cast bullet. The reason is the also tend to distort the bullet inside of the case when they are used.

2) I bought one set of Lee handgun dies some years back and discarded them because of poor performance.

3) I use RCBS or Redding dies. My current RCBS TC die was made in 1980 and produces cases .469 at the mouth and .471 at the base.

4. I expand the case mouth with an old Lyman 310 expander that measures .452. It also opens a second bullet seating area in the top of the case .456.

5. I size my cast bullets in a .452 die.

6. I seat my cast bullets so the case head is flush with the barrel hood. This of course presumes the hood is a good fit to the slide breech face.

7. I use an RCBS taper crimp die to apply a taper crimp to the cast mouth. It is adjusted thusly; A round of factory or military 45 ACP ball ammo is placed in the ram and raised to it highest position. The taper crimp die is screwed down onto the loaded round as hard as I can, using hand pressure only, no tools and the lock ring set.

8. With the above steps, you will produce a loaded round that will feed and function in your pistol, providing the pistol is in good shape and the bullet is compatible with the feed ramp and barrel throat.

9. Countless millions of rounds of factory and arsenal rounds were loaded with 5 grains of Bulleye powder. A charge weight of 4.5 to .4.8 grains is just the medicine for cast bullets in the 200 to 230 grains weight range.

I don't feel it is my business to discuss anybody else's notion of how to do such things and will keep my mouth shut unless a safety issue is presented. I am not bothered with how folks do things that produce frustration and malfunction as those won't produce harm to the shooter or bystander.

We have a century of experience loading the 45 ACP round for accuracy, safety and reliability in countless millions of rounds, there are no longer any secrets or new and creative ways to do this.

Barrel leading in the 1911 autopistol is seldom a serious issue. Any decent alloy will do with ACWW being just fine. Bullet lube is not critical due to the low pressure and large caliber, do any decent bullet lube will do the job. Bullets should be sized .451 to .452 and I have shot .453 bullets without any problems. I just a .452 die and take whatever comes out, as the actual size will vary a smidge depending on the alloy. .452 +- .0005 is just fine with me.

The notion of just neck sizing the 45 ACP case is nothing new, for the old Lyman/Ideal 310 dies did this very thing. When properly expanded at the neck, bulleted, charged and crimped, they work just fine in most autopistols.

I do not have a strong preference for the make of dies as long as they are not Lee. Many folks have good experience with Lee dies, but I am not one of them.

[Case Stuffer]

A key point that has been made but perhaps not plain enough is that the overall case must be resized enough to chamber and the neck section which grips the boolit needs to be reduced enough so the case expanding /flaring stage holds the boolit in alignment and position while being seated. If the expander is to large or the case was not reduced enough the boolit will be loose,it the expander is to large the boolit will be loose,if the expander is to small the boolit will be shaved buy the case and the case will likely be bulged. Expanders for cast and JBs need to be of different sizes.

Most but no all agree that a taper crimp should be used with all striaght wall cases which head space off of the front edge of the case. If the expander is to large for the bullet (cast or J ) then a normal /proper taper crimp will not prevent set back and a heavier taper crimp will either leave to little case exposed for proper head spacing, reduce the bullet's dia. to where it is now to small or in some case both.

If expander is near perfect dia. in relationship to bullet dia. then the bullet can not be pushed back in the case with hand force even before it is taper crimped and there will be no bulging of the case by the bullet. Loading ammo for one specific semi is one thing loading ammo to function in many can be very different.

In the past I loaded 9MM and .45ACP which were very specific for two of my IPSC pistols a 9MM and a .45ACP. Years ago I traded the 9 MM and recently found a rather large stash of ammo that I had loaded for it and it all had to be reworked to make it functional in my SA XD Sub Compact. Boy was I ever anoyed with myself for pulling what turned out to be such a bone head mistake.


Guess I should add that some use a roll crimp to just kiss the case mouth enough to remove the flare. This can be done but requires that cases be trimed to same over all length and if loaded on a progressive press that it be a very tight / accurate one and most have some play in them.

[Bent Ramrod]

I full length size all my .45 ACP shells. Nothing more annoying than the slide "almost" going into battery and sticking. It can be almost as unhandy as an IED, particularly if the firing line is shoulder to shoulder that day. You gain nothing in case life by neck sizing only, since the normal means by which .45 auto shells go out of service is by being lost rather than wearing out. If there was a possible increase in accuracy potential, the Bullseye target shooters would be neck sizing only and recommending it to everybody.

[Char-Gar]

An unfired round of 45 ACP (WCC 71) measures .4695 at the point just above the web. After firing it measures .477. After a trip through my RCBS sizer, it measures .469.

So, we have the brass expanding .008 at it's largest point. Will that make a difference in how the round feeds and functions? Maybe so in some guns and maybe not in others, but the object is to have handloads with the same specs and performance as factory ammo. You don't get reports of good 1911 pistols choking on good factory ammo.

I still enjoy reloading ammo with the Lyman 310 tool, which only neck sizes cases, even handgun cases. With this set up, even the 38 Special cases must be used in the same revolver in which it was fired. Go to another handgun and it may or may not chamber. As a result I FL size all 38 Special brass as you don't know where it might end up. The same is true for the 45 ACP case.

[DrCaveman]

It's raining here, light but non-stop so Im not gonna go get all my stuff soaking wet. Hey, I get to play with this issue some more!

I will have to humbly say that my efforts prior to now seemed misguided. You were right, I was wrong. I was able to achieve my goal (at least as far as I can test it without firing) of getting a .4525" boolit into chamber without being sized down.

I basically started from scratch with my die settings, THIS TIME disregarding the instructions from lee and the general guidelines from Lyman. I also have hornady and nosler manuals but they seem more focused on rifle rounds.

Gradually lowered the sizing die as a pushed a case in, back it out and observed. I could easily see the reduced size portion working its way down the case, until the die was about 0.01" from shell holder, at which point the case looked uniform. +1 for mfgr instructions.

I honed out my .452 sizing die. It now produces .4528" boolits. Hope I didn't go too far. But at least I now have the potential to be shooting boolits 0.0013" over groove. Since I beagled my mold, it is dropping around .454" and the sized boolits are more round than any I have measured since I got my micrometer. So far so good.

Took apart the expander/powder through die and really saw what was happening in there. Cleaned things real well, applied some light lube to rubbing surfaces, and did about the same as the sizing die as I lowered, tested, lowered, tested. Boolit was able to seat with much less flare than I expected, given that these boolits are .001 larger than previously. The setting I found was a bit higher than those found by following mfgr instructions, meaning less flare. The bevel base of my boolit probably helped. Still doing good I think.

Took seating die apart, cleaned everything up, looked inside to find the roll crimp ring, realized that I may have been accidentally roll crimping this whole time. In order to stay well clear of the roll crimp ring, the bottom of die is a solid 5/8" from the shell holder, maybe a little more because it is up inside the bushing and hard to see. Setting the actual seating plug was same as usual. -1 for mfgr instructions here. The setting I found was a good 4-6 turns above their recommended spot.

Factory crimp die. This one was a bit harder to judge. I went ahead and lightly lapped (mostly polished, I think) the carbide sizing ring and also the crimping ring. I left the crimp ring out, and screwed the die down onto the sample case (with boolit now seated) until it began to 'work' the case. Rather than measuring after each adjustment, I just kept my barrel next to me and tried the plunk test over and over. With each lowering of the die, the boolit would drop further into the case. By the time the die was touching the shell holder, my boolit was dropping into the barrel but still sitting about 1/16" proud of the barrel hood.

Put the crimp ring back in, tried a variety of settings, slowly increasing. Ended up that after turning the plug about 3/5 turn beyond light contact with case mouth, I got a nice smooth plunk that fell back out. Mouth OD is close to .472". This seems big, but it is plunking...

Good news here is that my OAL is the longest that I have gotten this boolit to work at... 1.240". I know that most h&g 68 style boolits can go that long but I was stuck between 1.225-1.23" for consistent chambering until now.

So to finish up, I pulled this test boolit and guess the diameter? .4528" on the nose. No size reduction through the process. Hell yeah.

This was probably all covered in stickies but it is rewarding to work through it. Looking back, cleaning my dies was probably a big part, and really wrapping my head around what each one was doing.

Thanks for all the help, I'll post some group pics if things turn out as great as I hope.

[DrCaveman]

Here's another odd one about boolit setback.

I grabbed the only factory 45 ammo I have, Winchester 185 silver tip, and tried the most stressful feed test I came up with- loading a single round into a mag with slide locked back, and dropping the slide using slide release. The boolit set back an average of 0.01" each time, as it went from 1.213" down to 1.149".

That's not very encouraging.

Pulled the round of course, to make damn sure it didn't get shot, and out fell 4.5 gr of a small shiny flake powder. It looks the closest to Titegroup of any elders I have on hand, but 4.5 is not supposed to be getting 980 fps which is what I clocked the win ST at.

Any ideas of the powder? It is a nice shooting load, and accurate as my hand loads.

[Char-Gar]

Shoving autopistol bullets back in the case while loading is a very common experience. For this reason, folks don't keep placing the same round on the top of the magazine and doing as you do, over and over. You have just discovered what most professionals have known for years. Rounds ejected from chambers are placed in a box for practice, they are not subjected to those stresses time and time again. To do so is asking for problems down the line.

I find myself running out of patience with this thread, so I will take my leave now.

[DrCaveman]

I am not a professional shooter, caster, loader, machinist, nor to I claim to be. Why my knowledge level being less than that of a professional causes one's patience to be tested on an open-information forum such as this one is beyond me.

Char gar I appreciate the insights you have given and the general advice. However your situation and mine are not the same, so if you are annoyed then I bid you farewell with respect.

[prs]

One item Dr Caveman failed to consider is the diameter of his internal size die. The ones in Lee powder through dies are meant for copper condom bullets and are a bit small. The ones for lead boolits like the "M" die are larger by just a tad. When full length sizing, and then using an "M" die that part of the case to be occupied by the boolit is now larger than the mid and rear sections of the case. With no great effort, the boundry of that enlargement can be set to match the bottom of the boolit and then the tendency to smack the boolit back into the case is greatly reduced. Safety first.

Dr, those are some nice deep grooves in your barrel. My 1911 is good bit scant compared to that.

prs (who did have a 45ACP kaboom due to bullet set-back).

[DrCaveman]

Prs

Good timing. At the gun show yesterday, there were several hundred rifles for sale! And at least 2000 primers! Going at $10 per 100 pack. Sickening.

But I found a lyman 45 m-die. I asked the seller, 'can this work with 45 acp?' and he says 'of course, it works with any 45 cartridge'. Not wanting to be the dick consumer that so many people like to be, I said, 'great thanks, I load 45 acp and 45-70 so this is great'.

Bought it, came home, and realized in about 10 seconds that this wouldn't work for 45 acp. The plug is too short or the die is too long, either way the expander ain't touching a 45 acp case. Good thing I also have a 45-70 or I would have been downright annoyed.

So now on my wish list is an m-die for 45 acp, midway seems to be backordered at the moment (surprise).

I did shoot my larger boolits today and the accuracy improvement was noticeable, though not huge. I've probably found another plateau where I need to hone my shooting before any more improvement will be seen from simple cartridge adjustment. Further, other factors like uniform boolit weight and uniform powder charge +/- 2% are currently outside my scope of analness so I should probably call it good and work on my shooting.

FWIW I briefly attempted shooting the rounds loaded with no case sizing nor flaring.

After dropping the slide release on the top cartridge (which I never do otherwise, I like the slingshot) I dropped the mag and racked out the cartridge. Serious boolit setback. I tried it once more with the same result. So I put those away, to be pulled.

Sorry that I didn't just take the suggestions as rote. Honestly I think if I did it over again I would go the exact same route. Mindless adherence to passed-down suggestions is not the way of a thinking person. Cold facts relating to the question at hand, well those are worth heeding.

It doesn't take an idiot to think of things that will blow yourself up. It takes an idiot to actually follow through with those things. It also takes an idiot to never consider them.

[gunoil]

i size and have a lee bb kit if i need it, I use dillon crimp die, and 45 case gage all before boxing.

[Wayne Smith]

Lyman M dies come in two bodies, a long for rifles and a short for pistol/revolver rounds. Sounds like you have the long body. You may have a .459 stem or a .454 stem or a .451 stem. The first is for the 45-70, the second is for the 45 Colt, and the third is for the 45ACP. The guy didn't know what he was talking about!

[Dave C.]

DrCaveman:

Remove the LEE factory crimp die. Walk to the edge of the nearest lake or river and
throw it as far as you can. This will do more for you reaching your goal of improving
the accuracy of your hand loads than anything else. If your gun will chamber the
finished round use boolits sized to. 453". If not use the largest size that will.

[Kull]

DrCaveman I've lost track after reading the thread of what exactly the problem is your trying to fix. You should full length resize 45 ACP to make sure you have proper tension on the bullet. It's so important for safety and consistency. Your finished rounds shouldn't look perfectly straight. A slight bulging where the bullet is is good and shows you have good tension. With crimping it shouldn't be called crimping. Deflaring would be a better description.

[Char-Gar]

"Sorry that I didn't just take the suggestions as rote. Honestly I think if I did it over again I would go the exact same route. Mindless adherence to passed-down suggestions is not the way of a thinking person. Cold facts relating to the question at hand, well those are worth heeding."...DrCaveman

It takes discernment to distinguish between "suggestions" and "cold facts". When folks with decades of experience with "the question at hand", tell you there is a right and wrong way to do this things, and the way you are doing it is the wrong way..well that is a cold hard fact and not a suggestion.

You have received lots of good factual information in this thread. Information you will do well to heed and follow. Discontinuing the use of the Lee FCD and the acquisition of a taper crimp die, would be a good place to start your new learning curve. The use of a correct dimensioned sizing die and expander plug would the next step. Cast bullets of .452 - 453 can be loaded quite easily with a standard set of 45 ACP reloading dies of a good make.

To disregard the collect experience and wisdom of 100 years of reloading the 45 ACP is not the "way of a thinking man". Or, so it would seem to me. We are never to old or educated to think we can strike out on our own in a new area and disregard the experience of those who have gone before. Size may not matter, but knowledge gained by experience does.

I am neither a professional caster, shooter or machinist. I am just a 70 year old guy who has been reloading and shooting the 45 ACP pistol since 1960. During that period of time I fired in very high level competition and loaded well over 1/4 million rounds of 45ACP cast bullet ammunition. I learned the facts of doing so, from men who had be doing so for many years before I was born. These men helped me produce high quality match ammo very quickly with a short learning curve. They made no suggestions to me, but just told me how to do it, and I listened and did as they said.

Your original post displayed a total lack of understanding of the basics of loading the 45 ACP round and the dynamics of a 1911 pistol. Folks have been trying to help you with facts based on experience and knowledge, not suggestions. You were as lost as a goose in a snow storm, but didn't seem to know it.

Herein is the source of my frustration.

[Dave C.]

Prs

It doesn't take an idiot to think of things that will blow yourself up. It takes an idiot to actually follow through with those things. It also takes an idiot to never consider them.


Words can not begin to describe how happy I am that the closest that you will be shooting to me is 3000 miles away.

[EDG]

>>>Mindless adherence to passed-down suggestions is not the way of a thinking person.<<<

Dr Caveman
If you are going to ask for help and then argue with the answers or ignore them you are wasting the members time. Why do you comes here and do that?

[462]

Mindless adherence to passed-down suggestions is not the way of a thinking person. Cold facts relating to the question at hand, well those are worth heeding.

Early on, like many others did, I offered a few "cold facts", but you chose to ignore them. After you made the above statement, I deleted my two posts, because I no longer wanted to be associated with your thread.

However . . .

I reckon that you consider yourself a "thinking person". If so, and you want to out-think Mr. Browning, please do so in such a manner that your experiment(s) will not harm anyone but yourself.

[DrCaveman]

I will ignore the last three posts. I considered for a moment deleting the whole thread because it doesn't seem to be doing anyone (other than me) any good.

But maybe there is a lesson contained here for other arrogant, experienced-enough-to-be-dangerous, free thinking individuals such as myself.

Char gar I appreciate the return and the civility. You are correct that I was feeling lost, but it was more of a fear that I had once again been duped out of reaching my guns potential by the lawyer-edited loading manuals. I was trying to get to the bottom of why my reloading procedures were producing such seemingly different results than so many others here. And I will admit that my understanding of each die's function was not complete. It wasn't entirely non-existent, just incomplete.

Enough wanking, here is my take home from all this:

-get a new set of dies, or at least replace a few of them. I will when they are in stock somewhere, and I don't plan to drop $175 for redding competition dies.

-start with mfgrs suggestions, beyond that go with the suggestions of users who have experience with those dies

-kill the FCD. If I regret it they are pretty cheap.

-my comment about 'mindless adherence' was not a slam of anyone contributing to this thread. It was more of a statement about my method of learning, going back to about middle school and serving me well. There is a way information is presented to the masses, and there is absolutely a need to dig deeper if you desire to understand things fully. I despise Fox news, MSNBC, CNN, and basically anything coming out of any politicians mouth. No disrespect intended

-I understand why I don't have many friends in the reloading/casting world! Despite my attempts to use the correct words and thorough descriptions, I obviously suck at communication. Well good thing my training was engineering, not broadcasting.

Best regards everyone.

PS it may provide some of you with satisfaction that I shoot by myself, way out in the woods. Yeah if I blow up I may bleed out but no one else is getting hurt. If I have company then I only shoot tried and tested ammo.

[Huntducks]

More reloading short cuts just love it, hope you don't pay for it dearly someday.

[DrCaveman]

More reloading short cuts just love it, hope you don't pay for it dearly someday.

Did you read the whole thread? I'm not taking any shortcuts at this point, in fact never was. Just trying to squeeze max boolit diameter out of my cartridge and improve accuracy. I still had to pump the handle the same number of times, nothing was any faster. Slower actually.

The whole point was to walk through the process here before squeezing the trigger. I did just that, and never squeezed the trigger on the unsafe rounds.

[Char-Gar]

DrCaveman... In 1980 and reprinted in 1986 was a 24 page booklet of articles published in the American Rifleman magazine on the 1911 pistol and the 45 ACP round. It contains several articles on reloading this great round for the pistol. The booklet is entitled "The 45 Automatic", Assembly, accurizing and reloading for the US Service pistol and the commercial model. It was available from the NRA Book Service, but is long out of print. Look for a copy on the internet and in due time, you will find one. It is a gold mine of reliable information on reloading for the 45 ACP round in the 1911 pistol.

With the 45 ACP round, now over 100 years old, reloading dies are readily available on Ebay. Used dies are plentiful and cheaper than new ones, although prices are going up even on these. A good set of RCBS, Redding, or other quality make can be found.

This past week, I bought a new old stock (1977 vintage) RCBS 44 Special sizing die for $5.00 and a new old stock RCBS 44 Magnum (1980 vintage) sizing die for $9.00. Combined shipping for both came to a little over $5.00. These are steel dies which I prefer. So, Ebay still offers good deals on reloading dies, if a fellow knows what to look for.

If, I can help you with your reloading goals on this round, please feel free to PM me on this board. I will do my best to be of help. The 45 ACP round is really a quite easy round to reload that holds no secrets or surprises. I think I gave the basics in a prior post.

As a final word, I will just say that learning requires a certain level of trust in the person or material that is used as a learning resource. Some folks find this trust to be very difficult, but without it, learning will never take place. Most of the folks that gave you input, had nothing but your best interest at heart. They wanted you to succeed in your shooting goals and be safe in the process. I certainly know that is where I come from. Take care and good shooting.

[r1kk1]

For what it's worth, in the early 21st century, Bullseye shooters did some extensive testing using a Ransom rest. The outcome was interesting. They could not see a discernible difference using same or mixed headstamps at the maximum 50 yds they shot at. The agreed bullet was a 200 grain SWC using Clays powder. They also noted that the 'bikini' look of loaded had no bearing on performance or function.

I have noticed different case wall thicknesses of different makes of brass. I did learn one thing from Bullseye guys, you will lose more cases from not finding them then the rigors of loading. My 45 ACP brass is quite old. I have seen a couple of split necks and these get crushed. I have lost more from not finding them on the ground.

PM sent DrCaveman

Take care

r1kk1

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

DrCaveman,

I can tell from reading your posts you are both an intelligent man and a man that likes to experiment. In many ways, I am like you and like to do the same. I'm not a young man, but a good bit younger than Char Gar, but like him, I shoot a lot of .45ACP using cast lead boolits I cast myself in IPSC and IDPA competitions. So I shoot a lot of .45ACP rounds.

A few years back, I was loading and shooting the .45ACP successfully, but felt I could get even better accuracy and quality of reloads. I tried some things and asked many questions on this board about how to improve my reloads. It was following the advice I received here that I improved my reloading experience, the quality of my reloads, the accuracy of my reloads and my over all shooting experience.

I've read through the posts in your thread and while I won't offer any particular advice about reloading the cartridge, I will comment that the posts by Mr. WR Buchannan and Mr. Char Gar were by far the best suggestions and advise you were given, though others gave good information.

If your long range goals are truly to improve your cartridges and fit them to your pistol, I would suggest following to the letter the advice given by those two gentlemen. You may want to modernize their methods for more recent powders and find currently available "better" dies from the current manufacturer's of quality dies, but their methodology is sound to the extreme. You will be safest and most satisfied long term by following those suggestions.

As a by word, I started out using the Lee dies because that's what I could afford. I'm currently moving to using specific dies from specific manufacturers for specific applications within the reloading operation, rather than sticking to a single brand. Because of this change (within the structure of good, solid advice), my reloading experience and reload quality one each and every change of caliber setups has greatly improved beyond what I could have achieved with a single die brand.

As far as locating dies, etc., try searching the smaller suppliers online. You may find their less expensive, more available and a lot less work than shopping for dies at a gun show. BTW, if you want to know "which" Lyman M-die for your pistol, there's some information stickied in the forums on Lyman M-dies that will answer that for you so next time you won't buy something you may not need.

Best Regards,

DaveInGA

[Char-Gar]

A few notes on expanding dies for the 45 ACP round:

1. The Lyman M-die (I measured mine just now) is .449 is diameter, which is just right for .451 jacketed bullets or cast bullets of the hard alloy used in most commercial machine cast bullets.

2. I like to use softer alloys and thus prefer an expanding die of a larger size as not to mangle the bullet in seating.

3. The expanding plugs in the Lyman 310 dies run .452 for the 45 ACP and .454 for the 45 Colt rounds. I have managed to acquire both dies for very little money on Ebay.

4. Thus, I expand all 45 ACP cases .452 and many 45 Colt case as well for use in revolvers with smaller cylinder throat and size my bullets .452. For the 45 Colt sixguns with larger throats, I size bullets .454 - .455 and use the larger expanding die.

5. If a handloader is willing to "go retro", we have options not available to us on today's commercial market.

6. I always taper crimp 45 ACP rounds regardless of how they were sized or expanded.

[DrCaveman]

Thanks for the good words, Dave.

Char-gar thanks for the book tip. I was able to find a few used copies through amazon, hope to be receiving one soon. Also have been scouring eBay (took a few years off, not really sure why) and see there are indeed lots of die options. Prices vary of course but with the immediate status of federal gun control legislation (i think things are looking better than was feared) I'll bet the increases will stop.

Question about steel dies: I trust you have to lube the cases before sizing? Is a little shot of spray white lithium then a quick tumble in a bowl sufficient? Or the old drop the cases in a plastic baggie, add a few drops of lanolin and shake?

I know there are lots of stickies etc about case lube methods but I don't think any address 45 acp directly because so many have switched to carbide dies. I like the 'retro' of steel so would like to explore it further.

It took me a year of shooting 45 acp in a non-1911 format to see enough flaws to make the switch. I quickly made the decision that the 1911 was the most superior auto handgun format that I had shot. Of course there are a lot that I haven't shot, but time has still confirmed my enthusiasm.

Perhaps it is wise to try some of the 'older' reloading tools since it was the 'old' gun that impressed me so much.

Thanks again

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Dr. Caveman, some answers/thoughts/comments in red in the quote below:


Thanks for the good words, Dave.You're welcome, always like to help if I can.

Char-gar thanks for the book tip. I was able to find a few used copies through amazon, hope to be receiving one soon. Also have been scouring eBay (took a few years off, not really sure why) and see there are indeed lots of die options. Prices vary of course but with the immediate status of federal gun control legislation (i think things are looking better than was feared) I'll bet the increases will stop. Do be careful on ebay. Often times, one can spend significantly more trying to buy something on ebay than one can find it on this board, in better shape, with less trouble while benefiting another member here financially rather than someone who may or may not be a reloader.

Question about steel dies: I trust you have to lube the cases before sizing? Yes Is a little shot of spray white lithium then a quick tumble in a bowl sufficient? Depends on the dies and the brass you're using. And if you're reloading with a progress or single stage. The more over all stress, the more you'll need lube. Or the old drop the cases in a plastic baggie, add a few drops of lanolin and shake? You would have to experiment, but I would suggest diluting the lanolin with alcohol like Dillon does in their lube.

I know there are lots of stickies etc about case lube methods but I don't think any address 45 acp directly because so many have switched to carbide dies. I like the 'retro' of steel so would like to explore it further. What applies to other straight wall cases in calibers where say, rifle is being reloaded will apply here.

It took me a year of shooting 45 acp in a non-1911 format to see enough flaws to make the switch. I quickly made the decision that the 1911 was the most superior auto handgun format that I had shot. Of course there are a lot that I haven't shot, but time has still confirmed my enthusiasm. A 1911 once kept me alive in a foreign land in a bad situation. I've tried and owned many handguns since, but have yet to find another, including the heralded Glock, that I would willingly call the "Yankee Fist." In the service, I'd never heard the 1911 called that nickname, but learned quickly and abruptly (Thank you my WWII Marine Corps father for teaching me to shoot a pistol before I joined the service, saved my life along with the pistol, as his methods and the pistol match perfectly.) how the 1911, even a many times rebuilt service "rattletrap," could instantly become part of one's hand. Never had another pistol since that did that like the 1911 does, especially when your life is on the line.

Biggest mistake the service ever made was to go to a 9MM high capacity pistol. No knock down power to speak off due to the high velocity round over penetrating and the high capacity gives the shooter a sense he's got "plenty," when in fact it's the first rounds fired that are by far the most important to survival.

If you need more than a few rounds out of a pistol, you probably need to run if that is an option, not stay to spray more bullets and get yourself killed. A man simply cannot put down that many targets that are shooting back at him before he's killed himself.

Perhaps it is wise to try some of the 'older' reloading tools since it was the 'old' gun that impressed me so much. It will certainly be interesting, but I would suggest you can get what you're wanting to do done with newer tools that will be easier to reload progressively with, if you're of a mind to use them. Of course, I don't know what's available for sale out there right now, since I've not bought many new reloading dies for pistol reloading in quite a while and the rifle dies I'm ordering now are all higher end dies for the purposes of refining my results.

Thanks again

[Char-Gar]

DrCaveman...I am so stuck in the past when it comes to case lubrication. I have done it the same way for 50 years and don't intend to change even though there are better methods these days, with spray lubes and all of that.

I will not use "spray" anything in my shop. I have some cats that get on and in everything and you can't control where the spray goes. The cats will walk across the residue and then lick their paws. I almost killed one of my cats with spray stuff, so none is allowed in my shop.

When lubing cases in bulk, I put the cases in a container of some kind, puts some lube on my hands, rub my hand together to spread it evenly and then knead the pile of cases enough times to get them well lubed. It just takes a few seconds. I then wash my hands. This works for any and all types of cases.

I started off using C-H case lube in the small plastic bottles and now use RCBS case lube again in small plastic bottles.

I have long been a fan of the 1911 pistol. The first centerfire handgun I owned was a WWII Remington-Rand 1911A1 that was purchased in 1960 for $35.00. I took up reloading for it, shortly thereafter as it was the only way I could shoot it without reloading. I started bullet casting at the same time. Since that time, I have owned at least a score of 1911 pistols, but am down to just three right now.

I am also a fan of the Browning Hi-Power pistol although not of the 9mm round. I put up with the 9mm round because it comes wrapped in such an elegant package as the Browning HP.

I have bought a couple dozen dies and die sets off Ebay and have only had one bad die I had to trash. I clean the up and polish the interiors to remove any micro-burrs that may be there.

I have both steel and carbide 45 ACP sizers and my 1980 RCBS carbide die produces sized cases of the correct dimensions. I also use a carbide die in 9mm. I have replaced all of my carbide sixguns dies (38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum and 45 Colt).

It has been popular for some time to sell and buy sixgun dies for 38 Special/357 Mag and 44 Special/44 Mag and use then for both the Special and Magnum length cases. This works just fine for carbide dies that produce a straight case with no taper, but steel dies do produce sized cases that is smaller at the mouth for a short distance than at the mid-point and base of the case. The Special and Magnum dies produce this top constriction for the particular case. A magnum case in a special die will produce a constriction much farther down on the case and a special case sized in a magnum die will have a shorter constriction. Hence the different dies.

Does all of this make a difference? Probably not for 99% of shooting, but I am very picky about these things and go to lengths that might not be necessary for most folks. I don't produce plinking/blasting ammo, but every round is as precise at can be made. Some folks consider me "anal retentive" on these issues, but that is just the way it goes.

I took a brief foray into progressive reloading presses about 15 years ago, but quite when I got an overcharge of powder in one round. These progressive gizmos don't allow the attention to fine detail that I like to give and I don't need to load ammo by the bucket full. I have noted the big increase in blown up firearms with the increase in the use of progressive presses. I use 4 single stage presses and one Redding turret press.

I am glad you were able to locate the little NRA book "The 45 Automatic", it is a 24 page treasure trove of classic information.

[arjacobson]

I agree 100%. I have 45 brass that has been reloaded since 1991. Full size and deprime each time. The brass seems to last forever

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dr Caveman: After reading this entire thread I would like to suggest that you go back and read and re read post #4, paragraphs 1-3, plus the two sentences in Red, and come back and tell us what those sentences mean. [smilie=s:

One thing you must learn from all of this Hoopla and Oink is that you need to get your information from established and reliable sources.

Books which have been in print for decades on the subject of Reloading are generally considered reliable. Many people can also give you good advice however sometimes it is hard to decide who actually knows what they are talking about, and especially if you do not fully understand what they are talking about.

The problem here,,, lies in the fact that you do not fully understand the reasons why all of the reloading operations are done. This is more than likely due to misunderstood words you have passed over in your reading of various instruction sheets or books. This problem is not unique to you, as many people who "think they know" are in the same boat.

All of the major loading manuals have glossaries in them for use in clearing the technical terms used in the text. I suggest you digest all of those glossaries and learn them verbatum. There will be a quiz later.

I suggest that you go back and re read all of the instructions concerning loading of Rimless Pistol Cartridges after you absorb the glossaries and find these misunderstood words and clear them so you have a "complete" understanding of the processes. Do this until all of your questions are either answered or dismissed as answered by complete understanding of the text.

This may seem unreasonable. However it is the only way to truely grasp the subject, and at that point you should be able to confidently load the .45 ACP. IE: you won't have any more questions.

I have taught many people to do many things and the fact of the matter is that if you truely understand a subject you should be able to explain that subject in plain english so that others can understand and use your information. The other side of this is called BS.

If you can't explain all of the things you've discussed here to someone else, and have them understand and be able to use that info themselves,,,then you don't understand the subject. Simple as that.

That doesn't mean you can't understand the subject,,, it simply means you haven't gotten there yet.

Understanding the fundimental concepts that are basic to any discipline is the senior axiom of all learning. Unfortunately this concept was not taught to everyone in school. The fact that they didin't explain why they were teaching you these things resulted in a society that is not as smart as it could be. Nobody ever explained to me why I needed to learn Spanish. I just thought it was so I could get a grade. It would come in handy to actually know how to speak spanish now that half the people I deal with are Mexicans! Maybe if they had said "you need to learn this to be able to deal with your gardener when you are 60," I would have paid better attention. :idea:

It appears that you are trying very hard to reinvent the wheel here. All you need to do is go back and learn the basics . This comes from reading and re-reading the material and asking questions from people who do know about reloading. It is pointless to have a discussion about empirical findings when you don't understand the basics of the subject.

Kind of like all this BS about Global Warming (now apparently "Settled Science") when you don't know that the sun's output of radiation fluctuates up and down! Funny considering that one segment of your discipline devotes all of it's energy to measuring that output everyday. Yet the ones in the know dismiss the most significant factor in climatology out of hand. It's all man's fault and we all should pay$.

It would appear that they don't understand all they know about Global Warming?

Teachers tend to know a subject better than most simply because they have gone over the subject time and time again. Again there are many here who have been over and over the subject of loading this cartridge for many years. Anyone with 50 years experience with most anything should have some idea what he's talking about? Except if they don't understand the basics, then they just think they understand the subject, and if they are a good enough salesman they can make you believe that they know.(Obama) But for some reason you won't be able to make anything they tell you work in he real world. this is called BS?

You can learn from them, but,,, you must first have the basic understanding in place, before you can really understand what they are trying to tell you, and more importantly to be able to tell if they know what they are talking about.

You must grasp the basics firmly before you can move on to re-engineering a process that has been successful for so many years. If you really understand the subject,,, chances are you won't want to change it.

Randy