.45 Long Colt question

[Goatwhiskers]

Got an inquiry today and don't have any idea. Young fellow I'm mentoring having the same trouble as all of us finding powder and asked about black powder in this cartridge, specifically Pyrodex. First I told him basically a case full, then reconsidered and figured I'd better people smarter than I am. Open for any and all ideas and/or load suggestions that I can pass on. GW

[country gent]

Im not sure the original loading for the 45 colt with black powder. But Black powder loads wont tolerate any air space between powder and bullet. Affects accuracy and some issues with ringing chambers have been seen. Fill case with Black powder I would start with 2f and try 3 f later. Then Allow for a little compression maybe .060 or so with a card wad between powder and bullet. then seat bullet ( a softer lead bullet) and lightly crimpThe bullet should carry enough lube for this but make sure it is a lube suited to back powder pyrodex. No heres the Pyrodex. Pyrodex is loaded the same as Black Powder volume for volume not wieght for wieght. So you need to make or find a dipper that is right with your Black Powder charges volume then measure and wieght the charge of pyrodex it throws. Hodgdons website may give Pyrodex data for this cartridge for the cowboy shooters. I did this once but cant find my records or remember the data now, a good reason for writing everything down. Work with a bullet 250 grns in wieght lubed with spg. a case full of powder lightly compreessed with a .020 - .030 card wad ( can be cut from cereal boxes with a punch) And standard primer. Should be a good starting point. Measure your bullet from crimp groove to base ( this is how much will be in the case) bring powder up to this dimension ( can be measured with a 7/16" wood dowel 1" long) + .060 for compression.

[Don McDowell]

37 grs of 3f black, or if using pyrojunk p fill the case till the powder needs compessing about1/8 inch to seat the bullet. Regular pistol primers

[Mike Brooks]

Went to a gunshow last weekend. You could buy all the smokeless powder you wanted. Most of it was at the same price as before the panic. I believe the panic is easing up a bit.

[Bullet Caster]

The .45 Colt is actually based on the old .44-40 black powder loadings. This designation means a .44 caliber over 40 grains of BP. When the .45 Colts came about it used the same designations as .45 caliber over 40 grains of BP. Essentially it is a .45-40. The older cartridges designed for black powder were called baloon cartridges which actually held 40 grains of BP and the case was filled to the brim and the lead squashed down onto the powder leaving no dead air space between the boolit and powder. The old baloon cartridges are very hard to find now days. I've got a friend who has a box of the baloon cartridges and he won't let go of any of them. He only shoots bp out of his Colt .45 and he told me how to reload for the Colt .45. The modern cartridges will not hold a full complement of BP and you can usually get around 39 grains of 3f BP.

As was stated above you must not have a dead air space between powder and boolit. Some use shot cards over the powder but I've never went that route. I use the Lee .452 255 grain RNFP boolit and squash it over the powder which compresses the powder a bit. You can get around 950 fps when using BP as opposed to 850 using smokeless without exceeding SAMII specs. Go figure. That cartridge was designed around BP and if you want a faster boolit use BP. I kinda like the smoke it produces. It makes others take note and usually give some comment as to why all the smoke from a Colt .45. BC

[13Echo]

The 45 Colt and 44-40 both were introduced in 1873; the Colt for the 1873 SAA and the 44-40 for the Winchester 1873 rifle. The rim diameter and body diameter are different. Performance is about equal. When the 44-40 was later chambered in a pistol it had the advantage of being usable in both a pistol and a rifle which simplified ammo supply for the owner. The Colt never had that advantage (until recently that is). Why then use a 45? Well it's like the old lawman said, "I carry a 45 because Col. Colt don't make a 46."

Jerry Liles

['74 sharps]

The original load for the 45 used 2f. I have shot a lot of 2f and 3f in 45, and the 2f is a stout load, but enjoyable to shoot, whereas the 3f, especially Swiss brand, is
not.

[Dale53]

I shot BPCR Silhouette for about fifteen years. There were many side matches for black powder revolvers. Mike Venturino has written extensively about using black powder revolvers (with both black and pyrodex).

I won more than my share of matches including at Friendship, In with a simple recipe:

1 - Use a bullet with a large enough grease groove (or grooves) for a good black powder lube. SPG is the world standard. I used Emmert's home mix (50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil). I later modified my lube by replacing the Canola Oil with an equal amount of Anhydrous Lanolin. My choice of bullet for the .45 Colt was Lyman's 454664 sized at .452" for my Ruger Bisley Vaquero cast of 30/1 lead/tin.

2 - A case full of your choice of black powder (I liked Swiss 2F) plus 1/16". In other words, you want your bullet to compress the powder by 1/16". Any more compression and you will distort your soft bullet. Since case capacity determines how much black powder or Pyrodex you need to use, it is a GOOD idea to sort your cases by brand. As a matter of interest, I found that Pistol grade Pyrodex worked as well as Black Powder if you have a problem getting black.

3 - I used Federal or Winchester large pistol primers with excellent results.

These loads would group in 2" or so at 25 yards. Very reliable and quite powerful (900+fps).

No wad is needed - just another bother and expense with no return. My particular handgun would shoot 70+ shots without cleaning or a reduction in accuracy. Handguns vary in this respect. When the cylinder starts to bind, it is time to clean. Using a good black powder solvent (I use home made "Friendship Speed Juice" for an excellent black powder solvent. Speed Juice is a mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide, rubbing alcohol, and Murhpy's Oil Soap in equal parts. I would make up three pints and put one pint in the DARK Peroxide bottle for range use and keep the balance in a half gallon or gallon container in a dark storage cabinet. Peroxide is damaged by exposure to light. Keep in mind, that after you clean with Speed Juice, the metal is chemically cleaned. If you don't use a good preservative (Ed's Red or Break Free comes to mind) you gun WILL rust. Contrary to popular opinion, this clean up only takes five to ten minutes. I have fired thousands of these loads in several revolvers and my revolvers still look like new.



FWIW
Dale53

['74 sharps]

I shot BPCR Silhouette for about fifteen years. There were many side matches for black powder revolvers. Mike Venturino has written extensively about using black powder revolvers (with both black and pyrodex).

I won more than my share of matches including at Friendship, In with a simple recipe:

1 - Use a bullet with a large enough grease groove (or grooves) for a good black powder lube. SPG is the world standard. I used Emmert's home mix (50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil). I later modified my lube by replacing the Canola Oil with an equal amount of Anhydrous Lanolin. My choice of bullet for the .45 Colt was Lyman's 454664 sized at .452" for my Ruger Bisley Vaquero cast of 30/1 lead/tin.

2 - A case full of your choice of black powder (I liked Swiss 2F) plus 1/16". In other words, you want your bullet to compress the powder by 1/16". Any more compression and you will distort your soft bullet. Since case capacity determines how much black powder or Pyrodex you need to use, it is a GOOD idea to sort your cases by brand. As a matter of interest, I found that Pistol grade Pyrodex worked as well as Black Powder if you have a problem getting black.

3 - I used Federal or Winchester large pistol primers with excellent results.

These loads would group in 2" or so at 25 yards. Very reliable and quite powerful (900+fps).

No wad is needed - just another bother and expense with no return. My particular handgun would shoot 70+ shots without cleaning or a reduction in accuracy. Handguns vary in this respect. When the cylinder starts to bind, it is time to clean. Using a good black powder solvent (I use home made "Friendship Speed Juice" for an excellent black powder solvent. Speed Juice is a mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide, rubbing alcohol, and Murhpy's Oil Soap in equal parts. I would make up three pints and put one pint in the DARK Peroxide bottle for range use and keep the balance in a half gallon or gallon container in a dark storage cabinet. Peroxide is damaged by exposure to light. Keep in mind, that after you clean with Speed Juice, the metal is chemically cleaned. If you don't use a good preservative (Ed's Red or Break Free comes to mind) you gun WILL rust. Contrary to popular opinion, this clean up only takes five to ten minutes. I have fired thousands of these loads in several revolvers and my revolvers still look like new.



FWIW
Dale53

Kind of curious, for my bp shooting all I ever used is water and then oiled up with Ballistol for my Sharps and Colts. Interested in the function of your listed ingredients as to their part in removing bp residue - what does each contribute?

[Don McDowell]

The original load for the 45 used 2f. I have shot a lot of 2f and 3f in 45, and the 2f is a stout load, but enjoyable to shoot, whereas the 3f, especially Swiss brand, is
not.

The 2f of old is much like todays Swiss and Schuetzen 2fs in that it is much closer in kernel size to what we're used to calling 3f from Goex. Swiss 3f is closer in size to goex 4 f so ubecha there'll be considerable more buck and roar.
Goex 3f (37 grs) does an admirable job of replicating the original factory ballistics especially when coupled with the Remington bulk bullet. I used a .030 fiber wad between the powder and bullet mostly because I wiped the small "hollowbase" on that bullet full of bullet lube, and I did not want lube contamination of the powder.

[Dale53]

'74Sharps;
>>>Kind of curious, for my bp shooting all I ever used is water and then oiled up with Ballistol for my Sharps and Colts. Interested in the function of your listed ingredients as to their part in removing bp residue - what does each contribute? <<<

I didn't "invent" the mixture but it has been popular for years around the Black Powder Nationals at Friendship, IN. The advantage is that it actually dissolves the black powder fouling (even the clinkers) whereas water just flushes it away. I can carry a small bottle of it to the range and when I am finished shooting, in five to ten minutes, my guns are cleaned and I am on my way home. After years of going home tired and having to heat some water, and do it the traditional way, I feel kind of like a guy who's been let out of prison.

I have no quarrel with whatever method anyone else uses (if it's working for you) but this is a very nice solution to the very real problem of black powder fouling. If I had to guess, the peroxide is what "eats the fouling" the Murhphy's oil soap buffers the solution and alcohol causes the moisture to "flash off" allowing almost immediate application of a good protective film (Ed's Red or Break Free) for storage.

After several years of round ball competition with my round ball rifle, I had occasion to unbreech it (patent breech). The fire channel from the nipple to the breech still had the original blue. That is the most abused area in a muzzle loader and it still looked like new after several years of competition and cleaning as outlined above...

Dale53

[Grapeshot]

Well, when I loaded .45 Colt cases, I used to pour in 40 grains of Goex 2Fg and compress that with a .45 Compression die until I could seat a PRS Big Lube Boolit to the crimp groove. Then I touched that off with a CCI 350 Magnum Large Pistol Primer. Later I used 30 grains of 2Fg and a one-quarter inch cork wad and compressed this until I could get my PRS Big Lube Boolit seated to the crimp groove. Muzzle Blast and recoil were reduced but it was a pain to add the extra step for the cork wads. I then started using the .45 Schofield cases and 30 grains of 2Fg, compression die and kept the PRS Big Lube Boolit. Very accurate using any of those loads out of my 7.5 inch barreled Colt Clones.

[cajun shooter]

Grapeshot, That is the very same path that I took while shooting the 45 Colt. I then took it one step further and changed over to the 44WCF cartridge.
I do feel that if I had been walking around in 1873-74 that I would of chosen that same round. Later David

[cajun shooter]

The .45 Colt is actually based on the old .44-40 black powder loadings. This designation means a .44 caliber over 40 grains of BP. When the .45 Colts came about it used the same designations as .45 caliber over 40 grains of BP. Essentially it is a .45-40. The older cartridges designed for black powder were called baloon cartridges which actually held 40 grains of BP and the case was filled to the brim and the lead squashed down onto the powder leaving no dead air space between the boolit and powder. The old baloon cartridges are very hard to find now days. I've got a friend who has a box of the baloon cartridges and he won't let go of any of them. He only shoots bp out of his Colt .45 and he told me how to reload for the Colt .45. The modern cartridges will not hold a full complement of BP and you can usually get around 39 grains of 3f BP.

As was stated above you must not have a dead air space between powder and boolit. Some use shot cards over the powder but I've never went that route. I use the Lee .452 255 grain RNFP boolit and squash it over the powder which compresses the powder a bit. You can get around 950 fps when using BP as opposed to 850 using smokeless without exceeding SAMII specs. Go figure. That cartridge was designed around BP and if you want a faster boolit use BP. I kinda like the smoke it produces. It makes others take note and usually give some comment as to why all the smoke from a Colt .45. BC

Bullet Caster, You have a ton of misinformation in your thread. The 45 Colt came out in 1873 as the original round for the new Colt SAA revolver released that year by Colt.
The 44WCF which is the name it was known as originally in the very same year of 1873 was introduced by Winchester and it did not say 44-40 on the barrel but 44WCF. It was designed by Winchester to go with the new 1873 Lever Action that had improvements over the 1866 that it replaced. It would not fire before being fully closed as the 1866 had been known to do. That was only one of the changes.
Your explanation as to the balloon head cases is also very different from what was known. Not all BP cases of the times were known as balloon head cases and with a powder compression die you may load 40 grains of BP into the Starline case which is known as being the thickest of current manufacturer. There are many good postings by some of the most knowledgeable men that are shooting BP today on this forum.
I shoot nothing but BP in 44WCF caliber in Frontier Cartridge class in SASS matches. We have many of the best BPCR shooters that post regulary on this forum. You may want to do some reading like the 3 books written by Mike Venturino, those by Steve Garbe, . Sam Fadala also has several books that have some good info.
The 44-40 came about when gun makers such as Marlin wanted to chamber the rifles produced by them in that caliber. They were not going to put 44WCF on the barrel as the W stands for Winchester. They decided to go with the 44-40 name and it took off. Later David

[cajun shooter]

64585
This is a picture of my Tnn Shotgun I received back from a gunsmith who advised that he could test fire my shotgun with real BP. I told him that is all that I shot and I wanted it tested with such.
I found out after almost having a heart attack as I opened the box that he used Pyrodex loaded by a friend of his. He tested it, put it in box and shipped it to me. Don't think Pyrodex will do harm to your gun, by all means use it.

[Dale53]

I have several hundred .45 Cowboy Special Cases. I hope to set aside some time this spring/summer to see how well they will shoot with black powder and the Lyman 452664 bullet (30/1 lead/tin) with a case full of Swiss and/or Goex and lubed with Emmert's Home Mix bullet lube. Ed Harris reports poor accuracy with his .45 Colt(s) and it'll be interesting to see how mine compares. I'm especially interested because of the demise of the web site where the Cowboy Special was sold (perverse human reaction[smilie=1:.

The full house black powder .45 Colt is not totally pleasant to shoot. That is, more than just a few shots. The heavy recoil gets to me just a bit over a long day at the range. I intend to see if I can get "useful" accuracy with much less powder in the short case of the Cowboy Special. Stay tuned...

Dale53

[Bullet Caster]

cajun shooter,

Since you're more knowledgable than I am concerning BP in the .45 Colt, I stand corrected. I just don't think I had a "ton" of misinformation in my post. Maybe a few things. I learned about the .45 Colt loadings from a friend who had been doing it for a long time. He showed me the baloon head cases and did a volume comparision to a regular Colt .45 case and the baloon head cases held more powder than the modern ones.

So you're telling me that there weren't any .45 Colt rifles in 1873? I don't know since I haven't researched this topic as fully as you have, so I'm inclined to believe you since you've got a lot more experience in this than I do. I was merely repeating what I had learned from my friend who'd been loading Colt .45's for 3 decades. So then, everyone please disregard what I have posted. Thanks. BC

[M-Tecs]

You can get around 950 fps when using BP as opposed to 850 using smokeless without exceeding SAMII specs. Go figure. That cartridge was designed around BP and if you want a faster boolit use BP.

Not quite true

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt45lc.htm



cajun shooter,

Since you're more knowledgable than I am concerning BP in the .45 Colt, I stand corrected. I just don't think I had a "ton" of misinformation in my post. Maybe a few things. I learned about the .45 Colt loadings from a friend who had been doing it for a long time. He showed me the baloon head cases and did a volume comparision to a regular Colt .45 case and the baloon head cases held more powder than the modern ones.

So you're telling me that there weren't any .45 Colt rifles in 1873? I don't know since I haven't researched this topic as fully as you have, so I'm inclined to believe you since you've got a lot more experience in this than I do. I was merely repeating what I had learned from my friend who'd been loading Colt .45's for 3 decades. So then, everyone please disregard what I have posted. Thanks. BC

Wow!!! That’s a really condescending answer to someone that is just trying to provide you with info.. Even Wikipedia got it mostly right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_Colt

Wikipedia claims the long is due to the 45acp. That is incorrect
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Sometimes a couple of minutes of research prevents you from being the south end of a north bound horse.

[Bullet Caster]

Okay, I'm going to disagree with you on the point of smokeless vs. BP. I'm talking about MY revolver not anyone elses. I have an Uberti and cannot exceed 14,000 psi. That's the absolute max for MY pistol. With that absolute in mind I cannot get loads faster than 850 fps using Bullseye without exceeding SAMII max pressure. As the article stated you can get 950 out of BP. This was my point and nothing else. I appologize to anyone who may have gotten their feathers ruffled.

I am not condescending to no one. Opinions are like...well, you know what they're like and EVERYBODY has one. I stand corrected and will say no more. BC

[Don McDowell]

Bullet caster take a look at the data on Alliants web , particularly the bludot data. It may suprise you.
And no there were no rifles chambered for the 45 colt until Marlin and Winchester did so in the mid to late 1980's. At the time Colts 45 was introduced the rim of the cartridge was quite thin and the body of the cartridge did not leave much room for an extractor of a rifle to get reliable purchase on the rim. Over time the deminsions of the cartridge changed to what we have today, and the smaller case body and thicker rims that will work in a rifle.

[MikeS]

BC: Just wanted to let you know that Bullseye isn't the only smokeless powder out there. If you were to use a slower powder such as 2400 or even Unique you'll be able to get higher velocity in 45 Colt than you can get with Bullseye. There's nothing wrong with loading BP in 45 Colt, in fact these days it's all I load in it, but it is easily possible to load it to higher velocities using the right smokeless powder.

The reason 45 Colt wasn't loaded in rifles when it first came out has to do with the rim. It originally had a very small rim, and there wasn't really enough rim for an extractor to be able to reliably eject the fired rounds. Modern cases have a much larger rim than the originals, so today it's possible to chamber a rifle in 45 Colt.

[Bullet Caster]

Okay, I will make one more comment then I'm through with all this. Sure I don't know everything there is to know about .45 Colt loadings. I thank you Don McDowell and Mike S. for your non-condescinding comments. For the most part, I have only tried Bullseye in my Colt clone. For my powder I do not want to exceed SAMII specs. and try to attain greater velocity. I have used Bullseye because that's the only pistol powder I have at the moment, but I do have some black. Sure I would like to try different powders in the Colt but Bullseye offers the most bang for the buck. On a very fixed income I have to take what I can get.

I know some on this gunboard do not realize what limited funds represent. I did not intend nor do I intend to repute anything you more knowledgable persons have commented on. I was merely stating what I have for my pistol and the velocities I have attained using my limited powder supply. I appologize to everyone whose feathers may have gotten ruffled by what I posted. These are just my opinions and are not the opinions of the gunboard administration. Some settling of contents may have occured during shipment and handling.:D

[M-Tecs]

LOADS FOR COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY AND REPLICA SINGLE ACTIONS

BULLET LOAD MV

Bull-X 255 SWC

7.5 gr. WW231 875

8.0 gr. WW231* 926

7.0 gr. WW452AA 893

7.5 gr. WW452AA* 947

9.0 gr. 800X 861

9.5 gr. 800X 919

8.5 gr. Unique 901

9.0 gr. Unique 964

9.0 gr. Herco* 890

9.5 gr. Herco 934

12.0 gr. HS-6 955

7.5 gr. Bullseye 932

18.0 gr. H4227 938

19.0 gr. H4227 994

20.0 gr. H4227 1029

14.0 gr. AA#7 929

15.0 gr. AA#7 1005

11.0 gr. AA#5 874

13.0 gr. HS-7 921

12.0 gr. WW540* 921

8.0 gr. HP38 875

9.0 gr. HP38 1005

8.5 gr. Universal 875

9.0 gr. VV 340N* 961

RCBS 255KT

17.2 gr. VVN110 1041

[John Allen]

This is a real shame I would be having a not so nice talk with this fellow.



64585
This is a picture of my Tnn Shotgun I received back from a gunsmith who advised that he could test fire my shotgun with real BP. I told him that is all that I shot and I wanted it tested with such.
I found out after almost having a heart attack as I opened the box that he used Pyrodex loaded by a friend of his. He tested it, put it in box and shipped it to me. Don't think Pyrodex will do harm to your gun, by all means use it.

[M-Tecs]

Good 14,000 PSI date on page 12 http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[MikeS]

I use the Lee .452 255 grain RNFP boolit and squash it over the powder which compresses the powder a bit. You can get around 950 fps when using BP as opposed to 850 using smokeless without exceeding SAMII specs. Go figure.

I wasn't trying to sound like a wise guy, I was just replying to this statement you made. By the way you said it, you made it sound like it was the only option FOR ANYONE. I understand being on a fixed income, I've been on one for years. Using the proper smokeless powder it's possible to get much higher velocities than you listed. That's all.

[Hang Fire]

All these warnings about BP and air space raises questions.

What about the paper cartridge Sharps, where when loaded there is a great amount of air space?

[Hang Fire]

LOADS FOR COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY AND REPLICA SINGLE ACTIONS

BULLET LOAD MV

Bull-X 255 SWC

7.5 gr. WW231 875

8.0 gr. WW231* 926

7.0 gr. WW452AA 893

7.5 gr. WW452AA* 947

9.0 gr. 800X 861

9.5 gr. 800X 919

8.5 gr. Unique 901

9.0 gr. Unique 964

9.0 gr. Herco* 890

9.5 gr. Herco 934

12.0 gr. HS-6 955

7.5 gr. Bullseye 932

18.0 gr. H4227 938

19.0 gr. H4227 994

20.0 gr. H4227 1029

14.0 gr. AA#7 929

15.0 gr. AA#7 1005

11.0 gr. AA#5 874

13.0 gr. HS-7 921

12.0 gr. WW540* 921

8.0 gr. HP38 875

9.0 gr. HP38 1005

8.5 gr. Universal 875

9.0 gr. VV 340N* 961

RCBS 255KT

17.2 gr. VVN110 1041

What, no Trail Boss loads?

[M-Tecs]

All these warnings about BP and air space raises questions.

What about the paper cartridge Sharps, where when loaded there is a great amount of air space?

I have always read and been told never ever to have an air space with BP. Like you I have questions if this is really correct. A friend of mine was a very serious cartridge collector. In his collection he had numerous BP gallery loads. For most of the BP gallery loads the case were only half full. Why could they do it in the 1880’s and we can’t do it today?

[crstrode]

64585
This is a picture of my Tnn Shotgun I received back from a gunsmith who advised that he could test fire my shotgun with real BP. I told him that is all that I shot and I wanted it tested with such.
I found out after almost having a heart attack as I opened the box that he used Pyrodex loaded by a friend of his. He tested it, put it in box and shipped it to me. Don't think Pyrodex will do harm to your gun, by all means use it.

That rust comes from lack of cleaning - It WILL happen without proper cleaning - whether BP or Pyrodex is used.

Clean your guns properly and it will NOT happen - whether BP or Pyrodex is used.

I've shot pounds and pounds and pounds of Pyrodex through many many guns for many years with nary a speck of rust.

[cajun shooter]

Well I will start with you crstrode, Any person on this forum realizes that the gun was fired with Pyrodex which is many times more prone to form rust than any current BP made. That is my exact point. It must have went right over your head. I did not fire the Pyrodex shells in my gun and then not clean it!! The gunsmith did and then shipped it to me via UPS. You should take time to read before posting.
Now for John Allen. You are very correct in your assessment Sir. If HE was in Louisiana instead of Illinois I would of had a good FTF with him.He was under contract with EMF at the time and when I contacted them and showed the pictures to them they felt the same as I did.
He advised them that the gun was still able to be sold for new. They had a new gun that was due to be shipped to him the very next day. They shipped that gun to me and shipped my gun in the picture to him. They advised him that he could sell the gun and that he was no longer to do any work for EMF.
I will make a wager with you Mr crstrode. We will take one of each or our guns and do a test with them. I will fire mine with a 44WCF loaded with 35 grains of 2F KIK and you will fire your gun with ammo loaded with Pyrodex. We will leave both guns sit for 6 days and at the end we will take pictures and allow other members to inspect both. If my BP used firearm has a barrel of rust then I will lose. If your Pyrodex fired gun has rust then I win. We will come up with a proper prize for the test. Later David

[cajun shooter]

Dale 53, When I started off shooting SASS matches and using full cases of 2F in my 45 Colt, I loved it. I did find that in some matches where I was shooting against shooters with mouse-f--- loads it was impossible to do good.
I came up with a way to be more competitive by using a different case. Find and buy yourself the 45 Schofield cases that are easy to buy now.
These were for the S&W revolver that was issued to the cavalry troops. I loaded them with about 25-27 grains of 2F and they worked great. They will interchange with your Colt cases all day long. The recoil and blast are much easier to enjoy. Contact me if you want any other info Later David

[Grapeshot]

I have always read and been told never ever to have an air space with BP. Like you I have questions if this is really correct. A friend of mine was a very serious cartridge collector. In his collection he had numerous BP gallery loads. For most of the BP gallery loads the case were only half full. Why could they do it in the 1880’s and we can’t do it today?

Diferent dynamics between metalic cartridges and muzzle loaders.

[13Echo]

In cartridge, and in muzzle loaders black powder just performs better if compressed a bit. A really large airspace can result in excess pressure but it takes a rather large space and is more likely to occur in a muzzle loader. Airspace with smokeless in large capacity BP cartridges is the real problem as, under some circumstances, it can cause ringing of the barrel or chamber or large pressure excursions and has been known to ruin a firearm. This apparently is especially bad if the charge of smokeless is held back against the primer with a wad with a large airspace between the wad and the base of the bullet. Charlie Dell could ring a barrel first shot using this technique. I think Dale 53 may have more information on this phenomena.

Jerry Liles

[Noah Mercy]

To answer the OP's question, Pyrodex should receive 1/16" - 1/8" compression to ensure 100% load density...no airspace. This is per the manufacturer.

Now, to chime in on some of the other comments; if you can get a propellent other than Pyrodex, please do so. As has been previously noted, it is notorious for corroding steel, especially in the humid south. (Since I'm a Florida native, I speak from painful personal experience.) Real black is much less likely to cause corrosion IF the proper bullet and firearm lubes are used. I've (accidentally) left my blued Ruger Birdshead 45 Colt in the trunk of my car for almost a year after firing a match with it using Goex black powder. Guess what? Not a hint of corrosion and five minutes of cleanup had it looking like new. Most of the horrible "rust" and "messy cleanup" stories surrounding BP are the result of the old corrosive priming in most factory loads, and then the use of improper loading, cleaning, and lubing in the modern era. BP-friendly cleaners and lubes, plus modern primers have made charcoal burning a fun and low-maintenance affair.

Since finding BP-lubed bullets can be difficult and sometimes costly, I'd recommend looking for American Pioneer Powder. It works with standard bullet lubes (they claim it works with no lube at all, but I've never tried that), is far less likely to corrode than Pyro, creates its own moisture when burned so fouling stays soft and easy to remove, and as with real black, warm water will remove residue. It is also slightly less energetic than black, so full case loads are more pleasant to shoot for extended range sessions. Many WalPharts around the country carry it, as well as the usual gun stores/ sporting goods retailers. I've seen it on shelves almost devoid of every other propellent, so it might be a good option. Oh, by the way, the smoke from this stuff actually smells kinda' "foody"...very inoffensive, if that matters.

Side note: I am a strong proponent of Ballistol for use on firearms, especially those used with black powder (the long-term test on my Ruger made me a believer if I wasn't before), and regular use will help "season" the steel and make cleanup a breeze as well as keeping everything running smoothly. A 7:1 water/Ballistol "moose milk" is my cleaner of choice for BP (or subs) as well as corrosive military surplus ammo...straight Ballistol for guns with modern smokeless loads.

Have an excellent day, all!
Noah Mercy

[SchuetzenMiester]

If you want to reduce the BP load in the case, use a wad and put Cream of Wheat or corn meal on top to fill the vacant space under the boolit. I have done this a lot using 55 grs in 45-70 for 200 yd target loads.

[white eagle]

geese I was hoping to get more information and not all the drama to wade through
aint it funny how everyone has different experiences in life

[TXGunNut]

37 grs of 3f black, or if using pyrojunk p fill the case till the powder needs compessing about1/8 inch to seat the bullet. Regular pistol primers



What Don said, except for the part about pdex. Know nothing about pdex other than I don't have any use for it. I use KIK FFFg but 37grs works for Swiss as well. FWIW a 2.5cc Lee scoop dispenses 37grs of KIK quite nicely. I'm using Lyman's 452424 lubed w/ SPG, RP brass, no wads.

[salpal48]

I load my 45 colt with Hodgens 777 I found it to work fine. Go to the Hodgens web site they have loading info for both 777 and Pydrodex. The loads are by vol but you can convert to grains using the black powder conversion charts on line. Once you load by Vol. or convert remember to reduce by the proper amount to compensate for the increase in hotness generally 10 to 15%. Thin paper wad if desired and do not compress
There should be no air space between the bottom of the bullet to the top of the powder at most .125" (1/8")

[bigted]

this is where I have a bunch to say but will refrain as it will be of no help.

45 colt is a hoot with bp...30 to 40 grains...fun fun fun...easy cleanup too.

[John in PA]

The best info I have found on duplicating original arsenal black powder loads for the .45 Colt is in the later editions of Spence Wolf's book on loading for the trapdoor Springfield. http://www.4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm Lee made the HOLLOW-BASE 250 gr round nose molds to duplicate the Frankford Arsenal loads. The book cover doesn't show it, but the 2nd and 3rd editions of the book have the .45 Colt info in them in addition to the trapdoor stuff.

[fcvan]

I remember when the articles came out regarding the introduction of carbines chambered in 45 Colt over 100 years after the cartridge was introduced. IIRC, the Colt Cavalry Pistol was made to fill a government contract and the ammo was proprietary to that contract and not initially available for civilian purchase. The round was loaded with 40 grains of BP.

Smith and Wesson had the patent on bored through cylinders until 1872. When the patent ran out everyone jumped on board to make cartridge revolvers. Winchester was already making 44 rim fire lever guns and the transition to 44 Winchester Center Fire was logical. Draw dies were expensive and so the parent case of the 44WCF was the same 45 case necked down and loaded with 40 grains of BP. The article said Colt did not want to put WCF on their guns so they called the cartridge the 44-40.

The 45 Cavalry model was generally unavailable to the general public. Winchester didn't want to chamber a rifle in 45 Colt wishing to avoid putting their competitors name on their weapons either. I suppose if the Cavalry model were available to the public, Winchester would have gone tit-for-tat and called the round a 45-40. The article made it sound like a contest of crossing urine streams between the two companies. Winchester also introduced the 38 WCF which Colt called the 38-40, also using the same parent case and loaded with 40 grains of BP. We all know it it really a 40-40 but what the heck!

S&W was making the 44 Russian and the 45 Schofield as they were competing for military contracts abroad and as competition for the domestic military market. IIRC, the Schofield round chambered in the Cavalry model and was loaded with 28 grains of BP. 45 Colt would not chamber in the Scofields. As quartermasters filled ammo requests they often ordered up the shorter 45 ammo as it would fire in either the Colt or the Schofield. The quartermasters coined the phrase 'short colt' even though it was actually a S&W cartridge and there never officially was a Long Colt. By 1887, the Schofield ammo became the standard issue round for both pistols. I can't remember if the article was written by Phil Spangenburger or Gary James, but it was informative.

As far as comparing Pyrodex vs real black powder, I didn't know that BP was less corrosive. I started firing Pyrodex in an 1858 Remington Copy back in the mid 80s and just figured it was all corrosive. All of the suggestions regarding cleaning and such were most instructional. I always cleaned with hot soapy water after a range day. I'm going to have to make up some of the cleaning solution mentioned by a previous poster.

I want to try some BP in my SS Vaqueros in 45 Colt and 38-40 just because. My dad picked up a Colt that was manufactured in 1898. He bought some BP rounds and we have fired some. In another thread, I read where it's a good idea to have cleaning solution to dump the brass into after firing to keep it from degrading before you can get it cleaned up. Im going to have to remember that.

One thing I really enjoyed was watching a you tube video of a guy loading and then shooting some BP 45 Colt ammunition. Pretty impressive! Between that and reading about folks making their own BP it looks like a fun learning adventure.

[Don McDowell]

Marlin was the one that did the "40" thing, Colt always stamped their barrels on the model P with wcf when a appropriate.

[Grapeshot]

Winchester was already making 44 rim fire lever guns and the transition to 44 Winchester Center Fire was logical. Draw dies were expensive and so the parent case of the 44WCF was the same 45 case necked down and loaded with 40 grains of BP. .

The .44 WCF is not the .45 Colt necked down. These are two different cases. The rims are different diameters as are the heads. Just try to run a .45 Colt into a .44/40 sizing die. You might make a bottlenecked case, but it will NOT chamber in a firearm chambered for the .44 WCF (aka .44/40). Also the first .45 Colt cases were made at Frankfort Arsenal using an inside primed, center fire, copper case.

As far as Smith and Wesson's No.3 Schofield, S&W did not want to reengineer their No.3 Frame to accomodate the longer Colt case, and the .45 Colt cases's tiny rim, which was great for the SAA with it's rod ejector would not function well with the extractor star of the S&W's No.3 ejection system. This is the same problem that we have today even with modern DA revolver's with swing out cylinders.

[RMulhern]

PYRODEX!!

Damn! I'd just as soon have pee gravel shot through the barrel!! 37 grs. Goex 3F works extremely well in the .45 Colt SAA. Has recoil so it's no puzzie load for certain using a 255 gr. slug.

[Dale53]

I preferred straight black powder in my guns but won several pounds of Pyrodex Pistol. I thought, why not? After I tried it I found it no more bother than black powder. Both require good cleaning and both require application of a good preservative. I have seen old, original muzzle loading rifles with horrible bores. This was before Pyrodex was invented. You can blame that on corrosive percussion caps for the cap locks but that doesn't apply to flint lock rifles. They were damaged by improper cleaning after firing black powder. Black powder fouling will draw moisture out of the air (I live in the Midwest) and that is the corrosive agent.

Clean after shooting both types and it is NOT a problem. Fail to clean, and you could be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Someone earlier mentioned taking care of black powder cartridge brass after firing. I carried a gallon milk jug about 3/4 full of water with a couple of squirts of Dawn Dish Washing liquid. After firing, I would decap all cases and drop them in the jug. On the way home, the solution worked it's magic. I got home, rinsed the cases in very hot tap water and dumped in a dedicated collander, shook the excess water off then dumped, still damp, into my large Dillon vibratory tumbler and tumbled them for a couple of hours. They came out looking like new...

FWIW
Dale53