Shooting from the Bench...How?

[JosephG]

While I am not new to shooting (and reloading for) longarms, I am quit new to shooting handguns. In fact tese handguns (both auto pistols and revolvers) seem to be consuming the majority of my shooting time. Casting boolits and reloading are now coming into the picture. This in turn will require testing these loads for accuracy. When dealing with rifles I have the equipment and know the techniques for shooting benchrest style (I used to compete in benchrest game). But my question for y'all is: What is the best way/technique to shoot a handgun off the bench for testing the accuracy of handloads? I have read that the best results (for group size and point of impact close to when shooting without a rest) come with only supporting the underside of the hands or the wrists. So one thought that comes to mind is to rig my front adjustable tripod style rest (from my benchrest rifle days) with "pillow" shaped sandbag on a flat plate. ThenI could rest my hands (holding the handgun) or my wrists on this sandbag. Does this make sense to anybody? Can you give me alternative ideas? I would really appreciate your inputs on this. Thank you.

Joe

[BCRider]

If you are only testing for group size then supporting the gun's frame just ahead of the trigger guard is an option. But if you're sighting in any given loads to set the sights up then you want to use the style of rest you're talking about.

Resting the butt of the grip and your pinkys in the saddle of such a bag would likely result in a tighter group. But again you're wrist muscle tension isn't going to be the same as it would be in a free standing shot. So you'll likely find that resting your wrists with your hands extended out in front of the rest is the better way to go.

With a wrist style rest you likely just want a straight across pad so it doesn't try to force your wrists inwards. For supporting your hands I like the idea of the saddle curve like pad. Nothing as radical as a rifle pad. Just a gentle open like saddle that moderately pushes your hands together

[gray wolf]

I for one do not like any kind of store bought pistol rest if I am shooting to test for accuracy.
I use two simple sand bags, the pistol is pushed into the first bag at the frame barrel interface.
the but or grip is rested on the second smaller bag. The idea is I am looking for a rock solid, no movement of the pistol position. Good site picture and absolute trigger control. Once I have the sight picture the pistol and my trigger finger become two different entities.
Sight picture must be maintained as the trigger is pulled. ( what you see is what you get )
Once I settle on a load I rarely find it to shoot off target free hand, However, I find if the grip is rested on the bench top or any hard surface it interferes the natural reaction of the pistols recoil
and this may cause it to shoot to a different POA when shooting off hand.
Hope I explained that correctly.
Let me add, that shooting from the sand bag should tell me how good the loads are and the potential of the pistol.
I am more interested in group size at this point, naturally within reason as to being close to the little one inch dot that I use for a target. I use 15 to 20 yards for this exercise, some folks use 10 yards and then shoot standing at 10 yards. I settle for no less than
1'' at ten yards off a sand bag for 10 to 15 rounds, of you could say a ragged SMALL hole. I adjust sights or loads for POI for my POA When you leave the bag your shots should still be shooting to POA, unless you are a very proficient shooter the groups will probably have opened up a bit. Now you get to practice and or make a slight sight adjustment, the pistol has already shown you what it could do, now you have to show it what YOU can do.
I use the rock steady sand bag shooting technique because I do not want to induce ANY, or as little movement as possible into the shooting equation at this point. I find this critical to the exercise, and if done correctly will simulate a mechanical rest. If your going to be moving the pistol or the sight picture changes you may as well just shoot off hand. Naturally, doing the best you can always gets a high mark.
I have been shooting pistol for 55 years and this method has never let me or anyone I have taught down.
As a side note, when I teach the youngsters the daddies wait in the car.
But that's another story Eh.

[wv109323]

The best way to test a handgun is to use a Ransom Rest. That rest and the adjustable base with inserts will run you about $600.00. Then you need a rigid base to mount it to. Each pistol frame requires a set of inserts for that pistol make and model. The biggest use of the Ransom Rest is for the Bullseye crowd testing the 1911 pistols and loads.
For about 15-20 bucks MTM makes a "Pistol Perch". It has an adjustable "Y" shaped front rest and then you place a suitable sand bag under the butt of the pistol. They work very well for the money.
Some people use large sandbags and rest their arms on them from the elbow to the forearm. The pistol is then held in front of the sandbags with both hands.
You should be able to get a very good idea of a load's performance with the "Pistol Perch" or the sand bags. Both these methods rely upon you aligning the sights and discharging the pistol without movement.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, JosephG. I usually follow gray wolfs method..or only resting wrists on bag. I have a Colt 7 1/2" .38 Spec. S.A.A. 2nd. Gen. that drove me nuts doing things this way though. At 25yds., I was getting tight groups..low and right..I'm talking at the very bottom R.H. corner of a 3' cardboard backer. No matter the load..I finally tried a heavy 200gr. Lyman 358430..these were unplesant even in light loads..brought it up, but still 5" low and 4" right.
Finally the o'l light bulb flickered on..and I shot it off-hand like they were designed for with std. 158gr. bullets...Presto! grouping right on top of front sight with perfect windage! This one is so far the only sensitive one like it. I was almost ready to reach for the file..glad I didn't!

[BD]

A ransom rest is the only truly proven way to comparatively test the accuracy of handgun loads. Conversely, if you support any part of the handgun with anything other than your grip for "sighting in", you are only fooling yourself. The reality for most of us is that our grip and trigger pull, (flinch anyone?), have far more influence on point of impact than the accuracy of the handgun.
BD

[gray wolf]

Sorry I disagree 100% --Do you think I would say what I said if it didn't work ?
I will say this, if you do it wrong It may not shoot to the same POA
And also how many people can afford a ransom rest. But do as you may, I'm not trying to convince anyone or change anyone's mind.

[lar45]

I like to rest the gun just forward of the trigger gaurd on a sand bag ontop of a 2x4 rest. I don't rest the butt on anything. With a good load I can usually get atleast 1.5" at 50yds. I know that others here can do much better, I just can't seem to get them all to cut the ragged hole.

[DaveCampbell]

If you are willing to tote the note for a Ransom Rest, it can be the best way to determine the inherent accuracy of a handgun. It is not foolproof, however, because you have to know how to run one. When I worked at the NRA we had one on our test range. I'd use it from time to time--mostly only when I had the time to fool with it and undo the screw-ups that others would do to it. That said, I am a long way from the NRA test range now, so when I test handguns now I generally follow the methods outlined by Gray Wolf.

For most handguns I use several sandbags arranged to form a comfortable platform for my arms and the gun. If it is a hard kicker, I pay particular attention to having some padding under my elbows to keep them from getting banged up. When testing my Contender I drag out my Sinclair rifle rest for the fore-end. Just as it is for rifle shooting, the point is to create a comfortable shooting platform that doesn't introduce any variables to the loosing of a shot. HTH

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Participating in a gun buyback program because you think criminals have too many guns is like castrating yourself because the neighbors have too many kids.

[Tatume]

I have a Ransom Rest with inserts and I know how to use it. I can almost always out shoot the Ransom Rest. They are good for comparing ammunition because they are consistant. A more accurate load will "float to the top." But a good shooter can shoot better.

[BD]

I would like to note that I never said that anyone could not out shoot a Ransome rest. What I said was "A ransom rest is the only truly proven way to comparatively test the accuracy of handgun loads". And I stand by that statement. There is a difference between comparative testing, and accuracy work. Some people may disagree that a Ransome rest is far better at removing your inherent personal bias in comparison testing than any setup wherein you still have a hand on the pistol, but I doubt you'll convince anyone in the business.
BD

[detox]

Be very careful where you grip the gun. Hot gases escaping between cylinder and rear of barrel will cut and burn you. I once used sand bags with a cloth rag resting on top of sand bag. After shooting i noticed rag had been sliced thru and looked like it had been cut with scissors in several different places.

BTW I use a rear buttstock sandbag designed for rifles. I rest barrel in V section.

[44man]

I found it is better to put the barrel on the front bag close to the muzzle, just keep it ahead of the bag. I use a firm bag under the butt and try for the same pressure there. It it changes, shots string.
Working loads has nothing to do with sighting in so it does not matter. All I care about is not moving.
Some of my revolvers hit the same off hand as from the bags and it seems the bigger ones are better then my .44. For hunting I sight the .44 from sitting or Creedmore AFTER I find the loads.
My .500 JRH when sighted from bags is shooting the same off hand and I can hit a bottle of water at 100 yards.
Then after more shooting off hand I am finding less change in POI with all of them. The more I shoot the .500 the better the .44 is because I hold it the same way, same tension. My barrel rise off hand is about the same with all now, even the .500 does not rise much.
No Ransom rest will hold these guns and we do out shoot them with any gun. Even a .22.
I have one of those MTM rests and at the shot, it flew over my head! :lol: I got tired of getting up to retrieve it.
Is it possible to sight in from bags? Yes it is. It just takes off hand control.

[Tatume]

I would like to note that I never said that anyone could not out shoot a Ransome rest. What I said was "A ransom rest is the only truly proven way to comparatively test the accuracy of handgun loads". And I stand by that statement. There is a difference between comparative testing, and accuracy work. Some people may disagree that a Ransome rest is far better at removing your inherent personal bias in comparison testing than any setup wherein you still have a hand on the pistol, but I doubt you'll convince anyone in the business.
BD

Hi BD,

I would like to note that I did not disagree with you.

Take care, Tom

[Whiterabbit]

I for one do not like any kind of store bought pistol rest if I am shooting to test for accuracy.
I use two simple sand bags, the pistol is pushed into the first bag at the frame barrel interface.
the but or grip is rested on the second smaller bag. The idea is I am looking for a rock solid, no movement of the pistol position. Good site picture and absolute trigger control. Once I have the sight picture the pistol and my trigger finger become two different entities.
Sight picture must be maintained as the trigger is pulled. ( what you see is what you get )
........
Hope I explained that correctly....

Pic is worth 1000 words. You do it like this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/20082505674a752a59.jpg

This is how I rest. I find a block of wood and some foam is more repeatable than a rear sandbag I am always propping up. NO cinsistency that way. With a sandbag, I get two shots close, then they string. Here is a "lazy" group I laid down at 50 yards. I was more interested to see bullet tumble rather than a tight group, so I used a sandbag and shot quickly:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60327&d=1359954594

You can see the sandbag getting flatter and flatter. Not bad though for a 540 grain PB bullet from a pistol :)

Anyways, take my method with a grain of salt. Im not the best pistolero out there. These are my best groups:

100 yards, 20 round group:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2008250567537b96c3.jpg
Also 100 yards:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56112&d=1355725904

Not even CLOSE to what the guys can do here. But I got this far by listening to the good people on this site. Before, I struggled to find paper. Eventually, I hope to close the gap even farther.


I found it is better to put the barrel on the front bag close to the muzzle, just keep it ahead of the bag. I use a firm bag under the butt and try for the same pressure there. It it changes, shots string.
Working loads has nothing to do with sighting in so it does not matter. All I care about is not moving.

I think I'll try this next time. I wonder how resting on the barrel will affect muzzle rise (muzzle bounce :)).

You didn't mention in this post, but I'll say it. You've said before GRIP CONSISTENCY is king, and I find that to be INCREDIBLY true. At 50 yards, I can be pretty lazy. But at 100 yards, if my grip isn't dead nuts the same as last time, that bullet is going somewhere else. Every time. It's amazing to see it happen. Doesn't matter for shooting a 12" steel offhand at 100, but for getting super-tight groups (for me) benchrested, it's absolutely critical that my grip be REALLY consistent. Like sitting still for turkey hunting. Can't be consistent ENOUGH. Still blows me away to see it in real time.


-------------

Joseph, I should mention that these are the ramblings from someone who is ALSO new to pistol shooting. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

[**oneshot**]

I've found that a rear rest made of firm foam gives me the most consistent groups. The foam I use is from the craft store, they use it for ink stamping designs on paper. It is fairly dense yet has some give to it. I have the foam set at an angle towards me so the pistol can recoil away from the foam. I rest the tip of the barrel on a rifle front rest that I modded with some leather stips to get the barrel ahead of the rest without hitting the ejector rod housing. Lastly, I set up sand bags for my wrists to try and keep everythig the same every shot.

It sounds like alot, but it works.

[Whiterabbit]

the angle tilt is nice. Makes it easier to reposition.

[44man]

The barrel will rise the same no matter what is up front or where it is. I just find I can hold the gun real steady resting the barrel. The barrel leaves so fast it just does not matter.
The bag in the rear is more important and I don't fluff it around much and raise or lower the front rest to get on target. The stiffer the rear bag the less it compresses. I don't know how much it does with the big guns like the .475 or JRH because they sure jump! The .475 has more wrist twist and torque then the JRH. It also must be held VERY tight off hand. I have never figured it out because both guns are the same velocity with the .475 heavier and uses a 20 gr lighter boolit. I get 1350 fps with both. The .475 and JRH both have the same 1 in 15" twist yet the .475 has spun under the Ultra Dot and turned it.
I tried foam and rubber in the rear but nothing works like a solid sandbag.
I can tell you for a fact that if you get used to the big guns off hand and go back to the little .44, it is like a .38 and a joke. We were shooting and I was down to the last 3 .44's, 330 gr boolit, 21 gr of 296 and a fed 150 primer. I just shot them at my 100 yard steel plate off hand and got this. So hey Whiterabbit, eat your heart out! :kidding:

[44man]

Whiterabbit mentioned grip consistency---YES. GET A HOLD just short of muscle shakes. Hold the six gun lower so your finger is straighter to the trigger. Off hand you can stick your pinky under the grip but don't try that from bags! [smilie=1: A big mistake is to hold a .44 with less then you do a larger caliber. Hold a .357 the same as a .500.
I am never going to say shooting a revolver is easy, you need to work at it. It is true I have shot hundreds of 1" or less groups at 100 yards and have done 1/2" many times. I shoot deer off hand to 120 yards.
Mostly it is how I load but I ignore recoil too. Trigger control. It is not something you pick up from a book.
Some say shoot light loads, others say dry fire, others say start with a .22 but if you want the truth, when I hand you my .500 your shoes will fall off from shaking. NO, shoot the most accurate, full hunting loads all year instead. SHOOT BIGGER GUNS MORE. The first gun I take from my safe is the .500 JRH. I have a love affair with the thing and even if I don't shoot for months, I will hit a bottle of water at 100 off hand first shot.
To explain the JRH, I feel it is the best of all the .500's, the S&W is too much, the Linebaugh uses a funny diameter and brass. The auto rounds belong in them. But no matter, if you have one of them, don't look for wimp loads. You need to reach a comfort level and if the gun is just too much, you should not have bought it. We are not all the same so just look at yourself and your abilities. Yet, you can overcome. You can shoot MUCH larger then you ever thought.

[subsonic]

The 44man speaks the truth. Once you have the basics down, there really is no substitute for shooting with the actual gun and load you want to become proficient with. Once you get good with the big bores, the little guns almost shoot themselves.

Recoil is mostly mental. So don't let your mind overthink it. Ever see the mental test where they lay the fake arm next to a person and put that person's arm under a black sheet? During this test someone talks to you and distracts you for a while and then they pick up a big hammer and smash that fake arm. 100% of the people tested felt the hammer hit them. But it didn't.

Guess I need to get out my big guns and play. Maybe Sunday? I have a fellow that doesn't shoot much that invited me over to his property. This might get interesting [smilie=1:

[44man]

Now I will tell you something very funny! Since I have been shooting big and heavy guns I can't shoot my Mark II's worth a darn. I used to head shoot squirrels at 50 yards but now the little, light gun shakes like a dog with a mouse. Now I need a rest for them.
Course, I am an old, shaky guy anyway and the heavy guns damp out shakes! :coffeecom
Picture a gun holding pretty still and this old man behind it shaking all over!

[ole 5 hole group]

NO, shoot the most accurate, full hunting loads all year instead. SHOOT BIGGER GUNS MORE. The first gun I take from my safe is the .500 JRH. I have a love affair with the thing and even if I don't shoot for months, I will hit a bottle of water at 100 off hand first shot.




Back in the day I thought I could shoot about any firearm fairly well and today I can usually still hold my own but hitting a water bottle at 100 yards off-hand on the 1st shot with a revolver or pistol - maybe if it was a 10-gallon jug??

I've got a fair shooting 450 Marlin that kicks like hell with a peep sight and I can usually either hit the 2-liter bottle with the bullet, throw a little dirt on that bottle or just miss a 2-liter bottle at 100 yards off-hand.

Jim, I don't know how many rounds you fire in a session, but I like to shoot anywhere from 50 to 200 rounds in a session, depending of course, on the length of time I get to stay on the line. I don't mind 12 rounds or so of heavy artillery but I don't find much enjoyment in shooting heavy loads all day long - self-abuse is not my forte.

440 grains at 1,350fps in that JRH is a handful and just because it shoots small groups is no reason for me to shoot it all day long at that velocity when I can shoot small groups with that JRH at 950fps with the same bullet and it feels so gooood compared to that 1,350fps load.:D

[44man]

Yes, my friend, there is a limit so that recoil does not take over. Once I start to change, I go to another gun. It does no good to get beat.
The trouble I have is if I reduce a load accuracy also leaves so I can't tell if it is me or the gun.
20 or more loads with the .500 is enough so I go to the .44 and can then shoot it all day.
I really don't shoot the big ones too much at a time. What is learned will stick until you start to go bad, then quit. The very first shot is always best. The old archery thing explained it. Go out and shoot one arrow and put the bow away until the next day.
I might shoot less then anyone here but what I shoot hits.

[JosephG]

Howdy all,
I am the fellow that started this thread...and...i am really impressed with the great resposne this thread has received. Thank you. the guidance and experiene you shared is exactly what I needed. I value the different approaches taken as it made it clear, at least in my mind, there are certain "cardinal rules" (consisitency of hold, trigger control, etc.) that must be adhered to for good results while at the same time there is considerable flexibility as to specific technique (two hands or wrists on a sandbag, a wood block and foam combination got a rest, frame or barrel on a front rest, etc.). All this tells me I needs to experiment with with techniques and find the one that works for me. This is exciting as it is bringing me back into the 'experimental" aspect of shooting that originally attracted me into the benchrest game those many years ago. Thanks again to all those that responded and i am always open for more suggestions from y'all. Good shooting and may all you boolits find the "x's" on the targets.

Joe

[Whiterabbit]

Funny story. I had the BFR in 460 at the range, shooting at 50 yards. My buddy was next to me and said "hey, can I shoot that?" Well sure, of course! He asked the same question you did. "any tips for shooting?" I didn't think about that question in detail at all. he asked it thinking what you were thinking. I didn't. I immediately thought about his other revolvers, he shoots a bearcat, single six, and other small revolvers. Though no stranger to heavy recoil, he has bear paws and has told me many times his 22 revolvers shoot better when using one hand than two. So without missing a beat, I said "Yeah, use two hands."

The guy next to him was a stranger and heard our entire exchange. He nearly fell out of his bench laughing.

[tenneesse]

When I shoot my .454 CasulL and my other revolvers off a rest and find nothing under my hands gets me the most repeatability. Also damage to elbow and shoulders goes along with the big bore handguns and wrists if sessions get too lengthy. I do 20 round sessions and give it (me) a rest and at that not every day. Ive never shot the .500's though a friend had a .460 Ruger ported and I found the .454 had far greater recoil.

With my auto's I still just rest forward of the trigger guard. I find Glock very hard to shoot from any rest, I find Glocks hard to shoot period.

[9.3X62AL]

I rest my revolvers and autopistols in The Gray Wolf Method, using just enough fore arm pressure on the rest to steady the assembled hands and handgun. My object is to inflict the least possible variance upon the recoil impulse from that produced by offhand shooting. I classify the results had from a Ransom Rest as "Nice to know", but my real interest is in learning how well The System (me, the platform, and the ammo) works in concert. A Steinway or Strativarius backed up by a garage band of 13 year old metalheads can't do its best work.