spring for a air service magazine for an '03 Springfield

[wmitty]

I inherited an '03 from my Dad which had an Air service (sp?) magazine on it when I was a kid. Dad took the magazine off before he passed away and put a stamped A3 floorplate in it's place. I remember the spring being round in cross section and shaped to the contour of the magazine. Well, naturally it was lost, and I have no idea about what might be substituted in it's place. Dad laughed about the high capacity of the magazine and said it came in handy when shooting at a running turkey... said he finally hit it on his 9th shot. Neither of us realized the magazine was a rare item; and the housing has been filed on, so it is damaged as far as being a collector's item. Anyway, I'd like to make it functional again and put it back on the '03. Any ideas on what could be used for a spring would be appreciated. Thanks!

[MtGun44]

Never heard of a high cap mag for an '03. Do you think this will military issue?

Bill

[Dutchman]

According to Brohphy's book The 1903 Springfield Rifles:

There were 910 special air service rifles all dated 1918 in the 860,000 s/n range.

The magazine was 25 rds. The rifle itself had the wood in front of the lower band removed, sort of a sporter look to it. There rear sight was a fixed insert.

The magazine kinda looks like a BAR m/1918 magazine. You might try using a BAR mag follower spring but might have to block the bottom of the 25 rd magazine with a piece of wood as the BAR mag is 20 rds.

Dutch

[Multigunner]

The Air Service magazine for the Springfield was similar in concept to the Trench Magazines developed for the Mauser and enfield rifles.
Rifle fire was still effective against low flying ground attack fighters, so being able to fire twenty to twenty five shots without reloading might produce a solid hit on a vital part before an aircraft got out of range.
I think these were also meant for use by observers and balloon crews.

Anyway the spring from a BREN Gun magazine might work or one from a BAR.
The BAR spring might not be quite long enough but it would not require as much push to feed for a bolt action as it would for an auto loader.
If one is available check the fit of a M14 or M1A magazine.

PS
If the rifle itself is the Air service rifle the combination is worth many times what the magazine alone is worth.
Heres a description from an auction site.


Springfield 1903 Air Service Rifle
For sale is an extremely rare, authentic M1903 Air Service Rifle in good condition. The stock shows normal wear and tear. Only very few rifles have been assembled in this way for Air Service use during WWI. In contrast to the standard issue M 1903 rifle the Air Service rifle shows a stock with a shortened fore end and no sling swivels (and no patched sling swivel holes). Experts believe that the rifle has been altered from its original configuration (possibly by an armorer) since it is assembled with a Rock Island Arsenal receiver (as shown) instead with a Springfield Armory receiver. Also the rifle does not have the altered rear sight leave. Nevertheless, this rifle does not have any traces of being worked over (if so) suggesting that the rifle was reassembled a long time ago or was a prototype of some sort. The barrel date is 4-18.


With shortened fore end the air service rifle might be mistaken for a sporterized rifle.

A site with images of the magazine still in its box.
http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=18295

[wmitty]

The '03 this magazine was on had a full length barrel and a Bishop sporter stock. My dad did mention spending a lot of time draw filing the barrel to remove the apparently rough finish the rifle came to him with. I don't know if the sporter stock was already on the rifle when he bought it or not. Sure not an original air service model and it makes me wonder if there were a lot of the large magazines floating around at one time or another for there to have been one on this rifle when he bought it. He always looked at it as being sort of a joke; guess that's why he finally took it off.

[Dutchman]

Draw filing was typically done to 03A3 barrels as they had rough machining. How about telling us the s/n of your rifle?

And how about a good photo of this air service magazine? There were some other types of magazines fitted to bolt action rifles that may be causing confusion.

Dutch

[Mk42gunner]

The M-14/M1A magazine is too short for a .30-06 cartridge; but the magazine spring might work, realxed lentgh of the springs is almost double the length of the magazine itself.

Another .30-06 sized magazine that might work with some modification is the Italian BM-59, basically a 20 round M-1 Garand.

Robert

[leadman]

I remember seeing a picture of a WWI biplane that had a 1903 mounted on a pedestal and a large mag in it. IIRC it was for the rear guy to fire at other planes with. Can't remember what magazine it was but it will probably wake me up in the middle of the night when I do remember!

[Multigunner]

I've seen replica German trench Magazines, very pricey, but never a replica Air service magazine.
I suppose a BAR magazine might be altered to do the job.
like as not the mag was found at some surplus store by the father or a previous owner of the rifle.

[wmitty]

Dutchman

S/N is 32832xx for the '03 and I'll try to post a pic if I can figure out how to do so. The old gunsmith I visited as a kid decided the magazine was a BAR mag.; but then he never saw it. It looks like the one Multigunner linked to in post #4 except there 's no spring or follower. I don't know if the follower in the rifle is the one which came with the long mag. but I assume it did. It's a milled follower and dad did say he bought the rifle with the long mag. attached. I have never examined a BAR mag. but is it made of .050" steel ?

[gew98]

The Air Service magazine for the Springfield was similar in concept to the Trench Magazines developed for the Mauser and enfield rifles.
Rifle fire was still effective against low flying ground attack fighters, so being able to fire twenty to twenty five shots without reloading might produce a solid hit on a vital part before an aircraft got out of range.
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These were not meant to be anti aircraft from the ground mode. Never for ground to ground either.
These were a copy in concept of the german 'garbenmagazine' , but as noted the germans used theirs in the hands of infantry not as air to air defensive arms. They experimented with the 'fliegerkarabiner' and an infantry version which neither were workable. So they settled for aircooled versions of the '08 and later 08/15's.Far more effective I'd wager.

[Dutchman]

S/N is 32832xx for the '03

That's not a 1903 serial number. It's a 1903A3 serial number. 3 million.... oh wait... it could be a Remington 1903.

Let me start over. The serial number is not a Springfield Armory or Rock Island Armory serial number. But it does fall into the correct range for Remington 1903 rifles that ranged 3,000,000 to 3,364,954.

The rough machining marks on the barrel say 03A3. A picture would solve this mystery :).

Without seeing the magazine I'd tend to guess it is a BAR magazine as they were very commonly available.

Send your photo or photos to me and I'll post them: swede1894 (at) gmail.com

http://images49.fotki.com/v572/photos/4/28344/9865882/TM912701903Springfield-vi.jpg

[wmitty]

Dutchman

Yep, it's a Remington and an '03 ( I also have an 'A3 sporter with the milled rear bridge for the receiver site.) If I have mislead anyone about the rifle I apologize; it has been in the Bishop sporter stock as long as I can remember. I know dad put the stock on it, but whether it had a military stock on it when he bought it , I don't know. I am still trying to get some pics of the magazine up.

[Dutchman]

Not about misleading. It's about accurate focus. In order to sort out a mystery you have to start somewhere and try and gather all the pertinent facts. Starting with what, exactly, the rifle actually is would be part of that.

Most of the Remington 1903 production when to England as Lend-Lease. For it to have been an original air service rifle is now out of the question seeing how the Remington 1903 were manufactured only in the early 1940s. So that brings the point as to exactly what magazine was in it.

Family lore (stories) often get corn-fusing. I'll be interested to see the magazine.

Dutch

[Blanket]

If it is a Remington 03, it was not an Air Service

[Multigunner]

Heres a site with photos and comments on possible purposes for the rifle.
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Bolt%20Action%20Rifles/U.S.%20M1903%20RIFLE/Airservice/The%20Air%20Service%20'03s.html



The precise date that the Air Service rifles arrived in France, or their initial disposition, is not known. On November 5, 1918, a report by Lt. Col. H. J. Malony, Head of the Aircraft Armament Service Headquarters, stated that 680 Air Service rifles were in storage at Issur-Tille, France. The difference between the 908 rifles shipped in June and the 680 in storage in November has not been accounted for. Lt. Col. Malony's report stated that the rifles "... were definitely not needed as armament for observers in aircraft ... ." This comment seems to confirm the fact that the rifles would not be suitable for aircraft armament purposes. Col. Maloney suggested that the Air Service rifles could perhaps be used as personal armament for couri*ers and similar personnel, but it has not been determined whether the rifles saw any such use.

It is known that 25 Air Service rifles were employed for testing purposes by the infantry to evaluate the suitability of the 25-round extension magazine. In addition to being used with the Air Service rifle, the extension magazine was utilized with the rare Cameron-Yaggi Trench Periscope Rifle. Relatively large numbers of the 25-round extensions maga*zines were also manufactured for use with standard '03s for trench warfare, but few, if any, were actually issued for that purpose before the war ended.