Poor mans paradox, stoeger coach gun?

[paul h]

Curious if anyone has tried rifled choke tubes in a Stoeger coach gun as a poor man's paradox rifle. Seems like it would be kinda fun with round balls if the accuracy wasn't too terrible.

[longbow]

I can't comment on accuracy with rifled choke tubes as I have not tried them. Some people say they work well but I have to think that if they did then there would be fewer rifled barrels.

My feeling is that the twist is too fast and rifling too shallow for them to work well but I could well be wrong as that is all that seems to be available. No reason not to try it though.

One comment I have read several times is that the choke tubes tend to torque in so tight they are very difficult to remove so watch for that. This mostly with full bore slugs I think.

Several people on this site, nitroexpress and shotgunworld have worked up slug loads for side bys for the same reason but often use smoothbore slugs or plain old round balls in smoothbore. Accuracy can apparently be reasonable to 50 yards.

I have been working towards a poor man's Paradox gun... very slowly! My original intent was to have a side by slug gun but I find I am occupied enough by trying to get decent smoothbore slug groups at long range from single barreled guns much less side bys! Good groups at 50 yards are not hard to come by but much beyond that they are work!

If you do try it I suggest 0.690" round balls in Federal wads or BPI has a 0.690" balll load in one of their wads. TRG3 has posted good results with 0.690" ball in wad in a fully rifled barrel. Alternately, 0.735" balls should work fine. I have shot many through smoothbore (cylinder bore) and one fellow here adam64 IIRC said he got good accuracy with 0.735" RBs and rifled tube.

I am leaning towards the 0.678" RB in shotcup for smoothbore but I doubt it would be tight enough fit for rifled gun. You need some squeeze or the slug may slip.

Just my $0.02.

Longbow

[ihunts2much]

One of these days I will find someone to make me a slow twist (like 1:100) extended rifled choke tube with parallel grooves and constricting lands. This would turn any shotgun with screw in chokes into a poor man's paradox rifle! Until then I think Longbow has it right. Shallow grooves and fast twist will probably do more harm than good right before the ball leaves barrel. It will also be hit or miss if your gun is regulated close enough for slug or ball. It is common in low priced doubles to have one barrel shoot at or pretty close to POA, and the other no where near. This doesn't really show up at close range with bird shot, but can be a real problem at 50 yards+ using balls or slugs.

[singleshot]

Round balls do pretty well out of smooth bores as far as a shotgun sight is useful.

[longbow]

One day I hope to make a deep, wide groove, slow twist choke tube for myself. I have planned to make a rifling bench to do that but just don't get to it. I figure wide grooves and deep with slow twist of around 1:72" should be good for ball or square slug. You are right in that a 12 ga. ball only requires about 1:110" or so to stabilize but a little over spinning doesn't hurt and 1:72" is still pretty slow.

What I am planning is an add on muzzle brake Cutts Compensator style with screw in tubes that go back into the brake and large shoulder on them to take the torque. I had a Pachmyr (IIRC) set of choke tubes that were set up like that but no brake. I made on out of stainless tubing and put it on an old single shot. Worked out pretty well and looked great when shooting BP loads (BALL'O FIRE!). No rifled tube though just standard.

If I ever get to it I may try to more or less copy the choked rifling style of the Paradox guns but I am pretty sure it won't be ratchet rifling, just choked if I can do it.

And yes, singleshot is right. Plain old round balls do pretty well to at least 50 yards. My good loads from single barreled gun run 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. It would be a little tougher with side by as there is also regulation to worry about but like I said, some have done it and are happy. I would try either 0.735" round balls or 0.678" balls in shotcups and see how they shoot ~ both best in cylinder bore for smoothbore shooting. You never know, it may work well for you and nothing lost in loading and trying a few.

Longbow

Oh, and I checked around to see if I could get slow twist lengths of barrel from Pacific Rifle and a couple others but no takers unless I wanted to buy an entire barrel. It was a bit expensive for my liking but if a barrel was bought and cut in about 6" lengths to have choke tubes made out of it then sold in pieces one might recover the cost. For my plan I would need a heavy wall to allow for the shoulder I want. Anyway, I checked then gave up. I figured I wanted to make a rifling bench anyway.

[TonyfromItaly]

instead of riflying the barrel, if the slug has rifling like this one, you have top accuracy. i can attest to that! and you can shoot it with any chokes! ;-)
http://www.locatellisnc.it/frame.html

[Hardcast416taylor]

Just my 2 pennies worth. I have tested and have seen the difference made with a rifled choke insert in an Rem. 870 std. smooth slug barrel, both with and without the insert. With a std. 20" barrel using Winchester 12 gauge 1 oz Foster type slugs I got random hits anywhere on an 18" square target. Using the same length barrel, but with the rifled insert, I was getting consistent groups of 4"+/- at 100 yds. all shots were done from a bench with sand bags the test gun was equipped with a 4X Nikon scope solidly mounted on the action. The use of either Anti - Seize or about any other choke tube lubricant on the threads of the insert makes removal with just a bit of effort on the tube wrench after firing 15 shots.Robert

[ihunts2much]

Longbow,
The Pacific barrel machined into a tube is an idea, but I wonder if the grade of steel used in the BP barrel would lend itself to that application.

[Multigunner]

Wonder if back boring a slow twist rifled muzzle loader barrel then turning it to fit a shotgun, or if a single or double cutting the old barrels off and boring the stubs with lump to act as a monobloc with the new barrels threaded or brazed in place would work.
Gauge would be reduced, perhaps a 20 ga or 28 ga on a 12 gauge action. Plenty of barrel wall then.

I have an hierloom single barrel with bore I had to ream out and polish to make it safe to fire. Barrel walls are thick, but even after reaming and polishing there are a couple of very wide and deep craters showing.
Been thinking of various methods of converting it to a smaller bore.
The gun is really too light for a 12 gauge even with the thick barrel.

[longbow]

Pacific Rifle has big beefy barrels with slow twist for 12 ga. balls but they are a bit pricey. These could be used to make choke tubes or replace 12 ga. barrels.

I checked with another outfit too but price was a bit much for me. Not that it can't be done, but it isn't likely to be done on a relatively tight budget.

Also, I cannot recall whether these barrels are safe for smokeless loads. The guns they are intended for are BP muzzleloaders. So, another issue.

If I had a gun with screw in choke tubes I might just try Robert's advice but all my guns are fixed choke or cylinder bore so it isn't just a matter of buying a rifled choke to tube to try for me anyway. Since I would have to get reamer and taps or take the gun to someone who could ream and tap for choke tubes (not easy around here!), I figured if I had to make something the Cutts style is something I can do in my little shop. Making a rifling bench isn't that hard either, I just need time to do it.

Rifled choke tubes may well be the simple answer in the end.

I have launched so much lead downrange now I have to wonder why I keep trying!

Well, I haven't quite given up on smoothbore yet. I have another couple of tricks up my sleeve.

Longbow

[TRG3]

Using a rifled choke tube in my 12 gauge smoothbore Remington 870 along with Activ slugs brought the group in much tighter than with just an improved cylinder choke tube such that I took several deer out to 50 yards with it. I greased the threads on the rifled choke tube and had no trouble later removing it to screw in a turkey choke tube. I'd say that my experience with a rifled choke tube was similar to that of Hardcast416taylor previously posted.