Colorado Deer Legal 357 Mag?

[Rattlr]

Colorado requires a rifle load to have 'impact energy of 1000 Ft/lbs @ 100 yds, as rated by the manufacturer.' (From 2013 Big Game Brochure.) Curious if a published 357 Mag cast boolit load exists. Tool at hand is a Rossi Model 92 with 20" barrel. Thanks!

[jonp]

A loading manual will tell you what you want to know. The calculation is online and by using the published velocity you can get muzzle energy for different loads. Ive played around with this myself by seeing how far a boolit load penetrates wet newspaper then figuring the energy to compare loafs and calibers. Ive never done it at 100yrds, though outside of a college physics course figuring trajectory, distance travelled, energy etc but thay was yrs ago.

[NSB]

63856I've hunted with the 357mag since 1981 when it became legal in NYS. Between NY and PA, I've collected over 50 deer with this cartridge. I don't believe there is any load that will make 1000fpe in this caliber. At 100 yds, not even close. To give an idea of what a 357mag will do on an average sized deer I've attached a pic. I shot a buck at 35yds broadside and he ran out to 97 yds and stopped broadside and I shot him again. Both shots hit within three inches of each other in the chest cavity. Both broke one rib going in and stopped under the hide on the off side. This really gives an opportunity to compare apples to apples. Note the difference in expansion. The load used is a maximum load with a 158 grain jacketed hollowpoint. The 357mag will kill at that distance but it doesn't expand well and probably is pretty marginal for game of this size at that distance. However, hitting the lungs and/or heart will still kill.

[gundownunder]

Here's a whole article on making the 357 legal for Colorado
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/357colorado.htm

[NSB]

So, which is it? 1000 ft. lbs at 100 yds per the OP's statement that it's in the 2013 regulations or 550 ft. lbs at fifty yards? The 550 number is doable with a number of loads. I'm sure 1000 isn't at 100 yds.

[nanuk]

NSB
sure would be interesting to know what a Boolit would do at that range.

I've read numerous articles that say in a Handgun, a 357Mag is good to 100-125yds

out of a rifle, surely you can add a few more yards on?

[bobthenailer]

Perhaps a 180 gr bullet would help the ME figures at 100 yards ?
also LILGUN powder will usually yeald higher velocties around 100 to 200 fps. my 18 1/2 in barrel Marlin does 1,708 fps with 15.5 gr LG and a 180gr gc cast bullet.

[NSB]

NSB
sure would be interesting to know what a Boolit would do at that range.

I've read numerous articles that say in a Handgun, a 357Mag is good to 100-125yds

out of a rifle, surely you can add a few more yards on?

I'm absolutely sure you can add some yardage on with a rifle. I had a Marlin 357 for a while and shot seven deer with it. It had noticeably better expansion at the longer distances. I once shot a deer with this caliber in a handgun (custom built revolver with 10" bbl) at 167 yards and got almost no expansion. The bullet went through the heart and stopped in the leg joint on the off side. Still got full penetration broadside but no expansion. Looking back on this (thirty years ago) it's probably not a shot I'd recommend. I think 100 yds with a rifle would be at the practical limit of using this gun effectivily and something like 75 yds...tops... with a revolver. To be honest, I don't think most people who carry a handgun should attempt shooting at distances where they can't consistantly keep the shots in a six inch circle.

[Doc Highwall]

I don't even think a 44 mag has 1000 FPE at 100 yards and if it did just barely.

[fecmech]

Marlin does 1,708 fps with 15.5 gr LG and a 180gr gc cast bullet. Still won't get you there, only 723 fps@100 yds. I think NSB had it right in the beginning. "You can't get there from here". Here's a place you can play with the numbers. http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

[jmort]

I was looking at Buffalo Bore's numbers from 18.5" Winchester 94 and they are right below 1,000 ft lbs at 100 yards - like 960 ft lbs, so possibly with longer barrel.

[NSB]

I was looking at Buffalo Bore's numbers from 18.5" Winchester 94 and they are right below 1,000 ft lbs at 100 yards - like 960 ft lbs, so possibly with longer barrel.
You need to remember that they are selling a product. I never believe the info put out by any company that's selling something. It's marketing. Auto industry exagerates (lies) about horse power, bow company's about arrow speed, etc. You need to do a check on what they say. May be so but I don't know.

[jonp]

I shot a nice 175lb whitetail at about 35yrs with a GP100 357Mag. I used a Core lokt 165gr hunting load and the first shot broke the shoulder and took out both lungs. The deer ran 20 yards or so and laid down and coughed blood. I walked up and finished it. I did this because a friend of mine swore a 357Mag was too small to kill a deer with and I proved him wrong. Proper bullet placement will do wonders. Just know your limitations with what you are shooting.

[jonp]

63856I've hunted with the 357mag since 1981 when it became legal in NYS. Between NY and PA, I've collected over 50 deer with this cartridge. I don't believe there is any load that will make 1000fpe in this caliber. At 100 yds, not even close. To give an idea of what a 357mag will do on an average sized deer I've attached a pic. I shot a buck at 35yds broadside and he ran out to 97 yds and stopped broadside and I shot him again. Both shots hit within three inches of each other in the chest cavity. Both broke one rib going in and stopped under the hide on the off side. This really gives an opportunity to compare apples to apples. Note the difference in expansion. The load used is a maximum load with a 158 grain jacketed hollowpoint. The 357mag will kill at that distance but it doesn't expand well and probably is pretty marginal for game of this size at that distance. However, hitting the lungs and/or heart will still kill.

Perfect photo of proper expansion of a bullet and explanation.

[jmort]

"You need to remember that they are selling a product. I never believe the info put out by any company that's selling something."

There are often exception to one';s own rules. In this case you are wrong. You can take the Buffalo Bore numbers to the bank. Specific numbers from specific guns. Underwood as well. Double Tap, not so much.

[NSB]

"You need to remember that they are selling a product. I never believe the info put out by any company that's selling something."

There are often exception to one';s own rules. In this case you are wrong. You can take the Buffalo Bore numbers to the bank. Specific numbers from specific guns. Underwood as well. Double Tap, not so much.
You'd have to show me the proof. Your beliefs aren't my facts.

[jmort]

"You'd have to show me the proof. Your beliefs aren't my facts."

Really? Tim Sundles or NSB? I'll stick with Buffalo Bore. You are either ignorant or purposefully ignorant. If you spend few minutes, you can confirm the facts or live in pretend world. What a sorry waste of server space.

[429421Cowboy]

63856I've hunted with the 357mag since 1981 when it became legal in NYS. Between NY and PA, I've collected over 50 deer with this cartridge. I don't believe there is any load that will make 1000fpe in this caliber. At 100 yds, not even close. To give an idea of what a 357mag will do on an average sized deer I've attached a pic. I shot a buck at 35yds broadside and he ran out to 97 yds and stopped broadside and I shot him again. Both shots hit within three inches of each other in the chest cavity. Both broke one rib going in and stopped under the hide on the off side. This really gives an opportunity to compare apples to apples. Note the difference in expansion. The load used is a maximum load with a 158 grain jacketed hollowpoint. The 357mag will kill at that distance but it doesn't expand well and probably is pretty marginal for game of this size at that distance. However, hitting the lungs and/or heart will still kill.

That is a unique opportunity that we don't get very often, as you said, a true apples to apples comparison on the same animal at different ranges. Cool! It really shows you what the difference makes, especially when we are talking rounds that are totally different than high power rifle rounds in terms of stopping power. Thank you for sharing!

I have to side with jmortimer on this one, Buffalo Bore numbers are crony'ed out of several real guns and shown, giving real world numbers, not out a test barrel. All of their ammo i have tested and used have been spot on. Remington, Federal and the like, I have to see it to believe it, because they can fake it till they make it however they need to as long as it sells ammo. BB on the other hand doesn't need to lie about what their ammo can do.

[NSB]

"You'd have to show me the proof. Your beliefs aren't my facts."

Really? Tim Sundles or NSB? I'll stick with Buffalo Bore. You are either ignorant or purposefully ignorant. If you spend few minutes, you can confirm the facts or live in pretend world. What a sorry waste of server space.
Don't get your panties in a bunch just because everyone doesn't agree with you. Use what ever you like to use. I've been shooting and loading for over fifty years and I've also worked as an engineer. I simply like to see proof. I don't believe all the promo hype put out by companies and I've seen a lot of "experts" spout off about things they really know nothing about. Show me the proof.

[BAGTIC]

"Several years ago ". What was is irrelevant. Only what is matters. Until someone confirms the current legal status we are only wasting time and bandwidth.

[jonp]

Still won't get you there, only 723 fps@100 yds. I think NSB had it right in the beginning. "You can't get there from here". Here's a place you can play with the numbers. http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

Sweet! Bookmarked the page.

[Rattlr]

550fpe @ 50 yds for handgun...1000fpe @100 yds for centerfire rifle. See pg 12 of 2013 Big Game Brochure.

[rl69]

Colorado requires a rifle load to have 'impact energy of 1000 Ft/lbs @ 100 yds, as rated by the manufacturer.' (From 2013 Big Game Brochure.) Curious if a published 357 Mag cast boolit load exists. Tool at hand is a Rossi Model 92 with 20" barrel. Thanks!
I beleave the key is going to be rated by the manufacture I don't think it maters what a reloader can make it do

[NVScouter]

I beleave the key is going to be rated by the manufacture I don't think it maters what a reloader can make it do

No. But I'd make sure mine could do it if I had to prove it the warden.

[jonp]

No. But I'd make sure mine could do it if I had to prove it the warden.

Do the warden's in your state carry chronographs around with them?

[fcvan]

I looked at the link to CO regs and it in fact says 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards, whereas the last time I looked (2011) it was 550 at 50. I don't recall seeing any public notices on the proposed changes as these numbers are a significant increase.

[wantoutofca]

550fpe @ 50 yds for handgun...1000fpe @100 yds for centerfire rifle. See pg 12 of 2013 Big Game Brochure.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11965555/Handgun%20energy.jpg

It's a handgun cartridge. None of the game wardens I know would give you any grief.

[Keyston44]

I looked at the link to CO regs and it in fact says 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards, whereas the last time I looked (2011) it was 550 at 50. I don't recall seeing any public notices on the proposed changes as these numbers are a significant increase.

It has always been 550 ft/lbs at 50 yards for handguns and 1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards for rifles. They did away with the handgun cartridge length of 1 1/4" so 10mm shooters could hunt. That is the only change made to the firearms regs since I began big game hunting in Colorado in 1986.

Key

[1Shirt]

As goofy as recent laws in Co, passed by liberals relating guns have become recently, it is a moot point. Don't tempt fate!
1Shirt!

[FergusonTO35]

If they enforced the 1,000 fpe at 100 yards rule wouldn't that exclude most loadings of the .30 WCF and .38-55? Also, note the rule says the ammo must be rated "by the manufacturer". If you are the manufacturer you can rate it to whatever you want!

[NSB]

If they enforced the 1,000 fpe at 100 yards rule wouldn't that exclude most loadings of the .30 WCF and .38-55? Also, note the rule says the ammo must be rated "by the manufacturer". If you are the manufacturer you can rate it to whatever you want!

That's like saying "I calibrated my own speedometer and I know I wasn't doing 85mph in 55mph zone so you can't give me a ticket". It won't fly in court. They'll say "show me the proof".

[wantoutofca]

I know guys who shoot deer with 204s. They don't care as long as you don't follow the wound and release method of hunting.

[jonp]

That's like saying "I calibrated my own speedometer and I know I wasn't doing 85mph in 55mph zone so you can't give me a ticket". It won't fly in court. They'll say "show me the proof".

so are you saying that reloading your own to hunt whitetail in Colorado is effectively off limits?

[wantoutofca]

Way too much thought is going into this. You would have to do something really stupid on top of this to get any attention from the GW.

[nhrifle]

Just go out with a bow. This should help:

http://www.huntingclub.com/blogs/articletype/articleview/articleid/14693/bowmag-arrowhead-bullet-tip-for-bowhunters-ata-2013

[Rusty Goose]

Wow, that is an interesting product. I wonder if the Fed's will want to call those arrow heads guns?

[Doc Highwall]

nhrifle, that reminds me of a bang stick that divers use.

I wonder if you could make it like a shaped charge to defeat armor?
A poor mans RPG.

[starmac]

I am thinking there is a slight legal difference in someone that reloads their own ammo and an ammo manufacturer.

[nhrifle]

I've never used those but they look like a bunch of fun. When I was a teenager, a buddy of mine liberated a few 12 ga shells from his father. We fashioned a way to hold those on the end of an arrow and set them off with a field point. They were pretty impressive, but I am still not sure how we didn't get hurt.

[BAGTIC]

I would not assume anything. We are obviously not dealing with rational people otherwise they would not conclude that a bullet fired from a rifle requires twice as much energy to kill a deer as the same bullet fired from a rifle.