Lyman All American 38/357 dies

[repawn]

Hi all,

I purchased a used but unused set of dies for 38/357. They are a still set of dies and appear to be in excellent condition. Well, I have maybe 6 pieces of 38 once-fired so I thought I would run them through the FL die - well lubed the cases and ran them. The primer popped and it resized them - unfortunately I think too much. The before size was right around .3845 the after was .3740. Is that the correct size, I thought .38 special was supposed to be .379.
Thanks.

[Char-Gar]

Is the sizer carbide or steel. I stopped using carbide dies because they sized the cases to much. Cases sized in a good steel die have a slight taper, whereas carbide rings give a straight case. Herein in my problem with them.

late 60 vintage steel RCBS 357 Magnum dies size the cases .378 at the head and .373 at mid-case and .371 at the case mouth. Of course this case mouth spec is before they are expanded to receive the bullet.

My mid-60s steel RCBS dies in 38 Special give .3785, .376 and .370 at the same places. Again, before the cases are expanded for the bullet.

[repawn]

They are the all steel model. I am going to mess with it again tonight - but it seems like it is sizing them down too much - there is a noticeable bulge at the bottom of the case as well.

[Char-Gar]

Look again and see if their is a carbide ring in the bottom of the die. Those cases sure sound like they been through a carbide die. The carbide ring is set up a hair from the bottom of the die to keep it from hitting the shell holder as carbide can be brittle it is so hard. This is what causes the bulge at the bottom of the case. At least the early Lyman were made this way.

[repawn]

Here is a picture:
63827
Not a great picture - but these are supposed to the Lyman all-American dies - price is 13.50 on the box.

[LUBEDUDE]

Steel - NON-carbide

[Char-Gar]

The focus on the camera makes it difficult to tell, but I am going to call it carbide. I say so, because looking past the end of the die, the interior looks very rough with all sorts of tool marks. A steel die would be very smooth there.

Steel dies will be straight across the bottom, but the carbide insert is a ring in the die that is just a hair higher than the steel outer body.

Lyman All American dies were their high end dies. They came in a black box, with a blue fuzzy interior and a wrench. The later versions with carbide dies had a sticker that says "Carbide" on the end of the box. The sticker may have well come off. $13.50 would be about right for the mid to late 60's. Lyman was one of the first, if not the first to come out with carbide sizing dies at a reasonable price. The first carbide die I bought was a Lyman in about 1966. It produced cases just like you described.

[Ed_Shot]

Another dead give away ..... the Lyman Carbide sizing die will say Lyman TC 38/357 FL. Mine were called the Lyman Delux Die Set as oppesed to All American in 1968. Never noticed it before but just checked.... my newly sized 357 brass measures .371 at the mouth .373 at mid-case and .377 just above the rim. It can't hurt much because I'm still reloading brass bought in the 1970's.

[repawn]

Thanks for all the info. Here is pic of the set. 63876
Sounds like the case size shouldn't be an issue - I won't know until I get the boolits in the mail.

And here is the front and back of the instructions just for fun.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/13/a7y8a7ur.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/13/y2anereb.jpg

[LUBEDUDE]

My Lyman All American dies are steel Non Carbide. But they came in a different box than above. Mine are the old narrow box Red White and Blue.

[Char-Gar]

Those are very good dies. The instruction sheet, (illustration A) shows a sizing ring at the bottom of the die and that is the carbide insert. Steel dies didn't have an insert, but the entire inside of the die did the job of sizing the case. That is why cases sized in those dies had a slight taper to them and yours do not. So, for sure and certain, that is a carbide sizing die.

Will it work? Sure it will, I have loaded many thousands of rounds with a die just like that. I just don't care for them. I am not a high volume reloader any more, so lubing cases is not an issue. I also am very, very picky about my handloads. I am very much in the minority as all of the handgun dies made these days are carbide dies.

[9.3X62AL]

You aren't the ONLY "picky" one, Charles. I have "reverse-engineered" my reloading to steel dies in a couple calibers, and plan to continue that trend. Most tungsten-carbide or titanium-nitride sizer dies do too good a job of resizing cases, leaving them undersized and exposing them to excessive working during repeated firing/sizing cycles.

[Char-Gar]

My return to steel dies started with the 45 Colt. Carbide sized cases were way to small for Ruger SA chambers and rattled around in the charge holes, not a good thing for accuracy. One of the die makers has wised up and now makes a carbide die with two carbide rings. One for the top have of the case and another for the bottom half.

I completed the circle with older steel dies in 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special and 44 Magnum. I polish the inside of these dies to remove any micro-burrs that might scratch the cases and the cases come out looking very good, fitting the cylinder charge holes and getting all the life a brass case has to give. I hunt down late 50's to mid-60's RCBS dies. I like to polish the inside of the dies and RCBS dies are unplated making that easy.

The more brass is worked, the harder it gets and splits and case loss increase with the process. I guess I could anneal the handgun brass from time to time, but that is a PITA.

Glad to know that "picky" is not peculiar to me. I do have my fair share of quirks.

[9.3X62AL]

45 Colt was my own first "rebound", too. 9mm came next, and 45 ACP would have followed but for the 45 Colt T/C sizer being a good fit to the 45 ACP at .469"-.470" finished diameter. 38 S&W came next, using the RCBS Cowboy die set with the Colt PP or the 9mm Makarov T/C die with the wider S&W M&P and Webley-Enfield. The RCBS Cowboy die sets are a boon to cast boolit reloaders. Once you start reading and checking SAAMI cartridge and chamber diagrams--in the context of your own firearms' internal quirks--you become "picky" in short order.

[Char-Gar]

Your post made me curious about my 45 dies, so I put both a RCBS 45 ACP carbide die (1980)and a RCBS 45 Colt carbide die (1989) in my press and sized some cases. They are once fired WCC 71 GI cases.

Not enough difference to make change on. For all practical purposes the dies are interchangeable. Interesting I thought. Methinks RCBS put the same carbide insert in different length die bodies and marked one ACP and the other Colt.

45 ACP - .468 mouth and .470 base
45 Colt - .468 mouth and .471 base

Another fired WCC 71 case won't size any amount in my 1964 RCBS steel die. You can shove the case in the die with your thumb. Once again showing how the carbide dies oversize 45 Colt cases.

These were measured with a good Starrett 1" micrometer using hands and eyes with 55 years of experience in it's use.

[engineer401]

I just measured a new unused .357 Magnum Starline case. It measures 0.375" at the top and middle. It measures 0.376" at the base. My carbide die is from CH4D. I called them to ask about getting a carbide die with a 0.374" interior diameter. They normally make their dies at 0.372". Bryan then looked through a box of reject dies and found one that measured 0.374". When I size the cases they rebound about 1 mil to result with a diameter of 0.375" nearly replicating the new Starline case. Bullets seat well and stay in place. I paid full price for the die but what great service.

[repawn]

I am going to have to do some more measuring. Unfortunately I won't get to it until Monday night.

I would have never guessed these were carbide dies - going to clean them and run some brass through and see how they measure.

[9.3X62AL]

Charles et al--

My 1981 RCBS 45 ACP T/S sizer gives .466"-.467" finished diameter to WW/RP/FC cases. The 1990 45 Colt TC does .469"-.470" as indicated earlier. Very nicely, my 1977 RCBS 38/357 T/C sizer gives .378"-.379" finished sizing to the wide variety of 38 Special and 357 Magnum cases I have on hand. I would conservatively estimate its round count at 125K cycles, and the only issue it has had involved detachment of the carbide ring about 15 years ago. A light coating of 2-part epoxy and three light radial staking taps around the die's base after re-seating the carbide ring, and it has been good to go ever since. I think I've gotten my money's worth out of THAT die set! All values derived from micrometer measurements, NOT caliper usage.

I took a look at the RCBS online catalog today, and their Cowboy die sets have been "upgraded" (NOT) with T/C sizer dies. RCBS still lists steel sizer dies for 38/357, 44 Spec/Mag, and 45 Colt. I'm ordering a 44 S/M steelie ASAP, in case some brainchild at RCBS Corporate decides that such tools are obsolete.

[Char-Gar]

9.3.. Glad you mentioned NOT calipers. I have owned several sets over the years and don't trust them for critical work. The number you get is very much dependent on how much pressure in holding the caliper closed on the work piece. Throw in the fact the measuring surfaces have tiny flats on them, which make it impossible to get absolute measurements on the inside of round holes. Plastic calipers are a joke.

My current set is made by Starrett and is the very high end digital version and I still don't trust it. I consider it accurate to plus or minus .002 (that is within .004). That is fine for setting up a case trimmer or measuring work in the lathe where I don't need .001 accuracy. The micro-threads on a micrometer produce much better repeatable accuracy.

We frequently get questions here about critical dimensions from folks who have used low end reloader calipers. It is very difficult to deal with critical numbers when they come from unreliable tools.

Many years ago, I invested in several Starrett micrometers and a set of Starrett machinist expandable hole gages and they have worked for me without any problems for 40 plus years. They cost money up front, but give a life time of service if cared for. Living on my desk, 6 inches from my hands as I key this in, still in the factory box is a Starrett T436FL 1 inch micrometer that I purchased in 1965. It is just as good as the day it was purchased and used to produce the measurements in this thread.

Calipers have a place on the reloading bench, but they will not replace a micrometer when .001 or less accurate measurements are needed.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, everyone. Interesting posts! I have found a carbide die set that can be used on .38/.357 that will not oversize the case...I ordered a RCBS carbide reloading die set from Buffalo Arms Co. for the .38 long colt. This case is shorter than the Special & while cases can be sized & bullet seated using the .38 Spec./.357 die set, they are too short to be crimped..thats the reson I ordered the .38 l.c. set.
Imagine my surprise when opening the box, I found a .38 Super carbide die set. A quick call to Buffalo Arms, assured me they would work..and were a heck of alot cheaper than the special order .38 l.c. set. I have been using this for .38 Spec. as it leaves cases larger for cast bullet use.

[9.3X62AL]

Good to know, .22-10-45. Does the seating die do a roll crimp?