1916 Spanish Mauser

[Taylor]

This one is unmarked,Samco import.308W under front of barrel.Had it for about 20 years and never fired it.My son wants to shoot it in a milsurp shoot coming up. I do have some 7.62 on hand.I thought I would slug the barrel to use lead bullets. It mic'd at .305. Kinda tight ain't it? I will check again later with some new lead slug.

[Larry Gibson]

These M1916s vary a lot in quality so I'll not get into the 7.62 vs .308W in them. Suffice to say the Spanish manual for them states they are for 7.62 NATO ammuntion also besides the 7.62 CETME cartridge. These rifles do however usually make excellent cast bullet shooters. The usual .308W cast bullet data does well. I like a 311291, 311041 or 311299 (prefered) cast of COWWs + 2% tin and aged for 7 - 10 days before use (sized at .311, GC'd and lubed with a good NRA 50/50 lube) over 28 - 30 gr of 4895 (any flavor) with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. That load always works for me with little fuss or working up loads.

Larry Gibson

[Nobade]

If you do shoot it with full loaded military ammo, you might want to check the headspace before and after shooting. I have one of those rifles, and when I pulled the barrel to polish the chamber I could see where the locking lugs were set back into the receiver when they proofed it. It will swallow a field reject gauge, and lock up tight if I fire a full 308 load in it. I still shoot it quite a bit with cast loads in the 30-30 power range and it works quite well, and hasn't gotten any looser. Hopefully your rifle is in better shape than mine is, but do be careful with it. That metal is pretty soft.

-Nobade

[Taylor]

Slugged it 2 more times,still comes out at .305. Plan to have the headspace checked this weekend. Lee 2nd Ed. has some reduced cast loads in 308 I plan to try.

[Multigunner]

Radway Green and the Birmingham Proof Authority did a study on the effect of undersized bores of some .308/7.62 target rifles. Pressures climbed considerably when bores were .306 or less in diameter.

A hard used and seldom cleaned military rifle barrel can collect a .001 or deeper layer of jacket fouling.
Clean the bore throughly, preferably using an electronic cleaner then slug again to be sure of actual bore size.

Medium velocity cast Boolit loads should be no problem.

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/Pressure_Trials_Consortium.htm

[Taylor]

Thanks,good article.Will read this again.I did notice that as the slug got to the end of travel (receiver end) things got tighter.So it would appear that the throat is tight.I will talk to my gunsmith when he checks the headspace about enlarging it.Or....257 Roberts,that was my original plan anyway.Gift for my daughter! 7.62 Nato chambers easily.

[Larry Gibson]

FYI; I've pressure tested several different milsurp 7x57 rounds with 150 to 172 FMJBTs and RNs from 1918 up through the '50s. The psi's run very consistent with M80 milsurp 7.62 NATO and factory .308W cartridges. You would be aghast at the psi some of those 7x57 milsurp rounds were running at. Both R-P and Win factory 175 RNs and Hornady's Light Magnum were running about 10,000 less psi than the milsurp stuff.

However, the M93 action with a good cast bullet load of 4895 under the excellent 311299 runs a lot less psi and will make for an excellent shooter for the daughter.

Larry Gibson

[UBER7MM]

Taylor,
.
.
IMHO, 308WIN cast loads should be fine, however I would NOT shoot factory jacketed cartridges or surplus ammo out of it. You might never have a problem, but is it worth the risk? Spanish Mausers are known for weaker steel, than German/Czech, etc. and the 93/95 Mauser "cock on close" action is weaker than the M98.
.
I had a FR-7 in 308/7.62x51 NATO/CETME chambering. It was my first centerfire rifle. I shot lots of surplus ammo out of it. I also got my first deer with that surplus Mauser (and its original sites). Later, I read about the relatively week Mauser 93/95 actions. The chamber was enlarged. As it turned out, the bolt had been switched, prior to my purchase, with a longer one in a poor attempt to compensate.
.
The 308 Win is pressured at 52,000 cup (SAMMI) and the 7x57 that originally was designed for the 93/95 Spanish Mauser is pressured at 46000 cup. (The lower pressure for the 7x57 is to compensate for weaker action guns such as the Spanish Mauser.)
.
I had the option of loading my FR-7 light in cast loads, but I never wanted someone else chambering 308/NATO jacketed rounds. I had it rebarreled to 7x57, its original chambering prior to the post WWII FR-7 update, which is an other story.
.
I don't know the condition of your rifle. But considering my experience, I'd rather err on the side of safety.


I hope this helps,

[copperlake]

6395663957

Lots of good input here. Here is a picture of a '93 Oviedo with a little over .004" setback (red arrow points to the start) the red circle shows there is no detectable 'bump' or pocket of setback. You can't feel it when operating the action. You can see it with a little angle mirror and a headspace gauge will tell the tale. The second picture is cause to not even think about using the gun, even with reduced loads; that being a extremely over sized firing pin hole. It may work just fine forever but you'd be foolish to try. The '93 mausers that have been built with, or retro'ed with, the large gas escape hole on the left side of the receiver handle gas better than all the other 89-96 mausers, in my opinion.

I do not agree that the Spanish mausers are made out of inferior steel. I have found the case hardening treatment to be wildly disparate. This particular Spanish mauser is a 'shofty' - It may not have been treated at all. I have a '96 Swedish that is not any harder. As a matter of fact, I twisted the tang 90 degrees with an 8" crescent wrench!

Another thing to look for is excessive firing pin protrusion. I had a '94 mauser in the shop last week that had .025" protrusion in the load position! That's so much that a tight extractor will pin the cartridge rim against the firing pin and not let it feed. But, I could easily pull and extractor out of my prts drawer that would let it happen. The guy had made it up from parts.

[Larry Gibson]

the 7x57 that originally was designed for the 93/95 Spanish Mauser is pressured at 46000 cup. (The lower pressure for the 7x57 is to compensate for weaker action guns such as the Spanish Mauser.)

That CUP is the US CUP. The european psi (actually measured in "atmospheres") is much greater. As I mentioned previously; actual measured psi from Spanish made milsurp is much higher than 46000 CUP level and equals that for the 7.62 NATO/.308W when both are measured using psi equipment. Not wanting to get into a long winded discussion on this but facts are facts based on actual measurement of psi's by me and not conjecture based on previous conjecture by other authors. The psi is what it is........and is much higher than many believe in 7x57 milsurp ammunition.

BTW; Copperlake is correct. There is a great disparacy of quality in hardening of the M93 actions let alone the general condition of many FR7 rifles. A lot depends on which arsenal made them and when they were made. I also would not use one with a bolt in the condition shown (left one). Later made Oviedo actions (the M1916 ones) in excellent condition usually have no lug setback problems with normal loads, especially cast bullet loads.

Larry Gibson

[Taylor]

Larry should I decide to re-barrel in say...7X57 and my smith does not have one,what say ye? Think maybe you might have one available you would be willing to let go of?

[Taylor]

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb396/WillTaylor57/DSCN00541_zps89cdc051.jpghttp://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb396/WillTaylor57/DSCN00511_zps2b50e2b1.jpghttp://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb396/WillTaylor57/DSCN00571_zpsc52a5856.jpghttp://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb396/WillTaylor57/DSCN00531_zps713fbef1.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

Larry should I decide to re-barrel in say...7X57 and my smith does not have one,what say ye? Think maybe you might have one available you would be willing to let go of?

A 7x57 barrel? My only 7x57 barrel at this time is on my M95 Chilean and it's not comming off any time soon. Shouldn't be hard to get a new 7x57 barrel or perhaps check around for a good used one which may be a cr*p shoot. Besides I don't think there's a thing wrong with the barrel you have on that rifle, especially for cast bullet loads. That's a decent looking rifle and should do well with cast bullet loads. Do you have any .30 cal moulds?

Larry Gibson

[Taylor]

sure do.

[UBER7MM]

Another thing to look for is excessive firing pin protrusion. I had a '94 mauser in the shop last week that had .025" protrusion in the load position! That's so much that a tight extractor will pin the cartridge rim against the firing pin and not let it feed. But, I could easily pull and extractor out of my prts drawer that would let it happen. The guy had made it up from parts.

I fixed the extruding firing pin issue by welding an extra 1/8" on the end of the sear so that it holds the firing pin out of way on closing of the bolt, when the bolt handle is in the up position. Worked great. I had a photo of it at one time. If you're interested, PM me, and I'll find it.

[Larry Gibson]

sure do.

OK?

So are you going to try any.....which ever you have?

Larry Gibson

[Taylor]

She got a clean bill of health today.The go went,the no go did not.He checked her out pretty good."Have you shot it"? No. Well let's go.We went out back and he fired a couple of rounds of 7.62,he then inspected the cases.He liked what he saw and was happy,therefore I am happy.

Turns out,the .30 caliber moulds I have won't do.Too fat,won't chamber without pushing the bullet to far into the case.They are the Lee 309 170fn and 180.

[nekshot]

sure seems like you need the lyman 311291. Nice looking gun.

[Taylor]

OK,I'm a moron...the bullet was hitting the face of the chamber.When I realized what was happening,I put a little extra effort into it and made sure they went in straight. Bullet will work just fine,already have some loads made up using H4895.

I do have an Ideal 311467,that's an ugly bullet!

[copperlake]

I fixed the extruding firing pin issue by welding an extra 1/8" on the end of the sear so that it holds the firing pin out of way on closing of the bolt, when the bolt handle is in the up position. Worked great. I had a photo of it at one time. If you're interested, PM m e, and I'll find it.

UBER, with all due respect, I don't think your cure for excess pin protrusion is a good one. I'm sure it worked but it's not the best way to accomplish the task. Usually one shortens the pin then re-profiles it and checks to make sure that the striker is not landing on what it shouldn't. Here is a pic of a '93 mauser that has a problem: the pin taper is landing against the bolt body, which it was not designed to do. The primer and the cocking piece against the bolt sleeve takes the impact the when the cocking spring is released. How does one tell when one can't see inside the bolt? Usually if things are in their proper relationships the bolt sleeve will have some 'sloppiness' to it when in the firing position. If it's tight likely either the pin taper or the spring flange is against the bolt body. Also, the part of the cocking piece that engages the sear will not be tight in the cocking notch, that's another point of contact that shouldn't be as those two surfaces are not meant to collide, they cam when operating the bolt. There are many relationships at play here, more than casually meets the eye.

Another important thing about your method is that even if you TIGGED the part the hardness is lost and therefore wear resistance is gone because these parts are case hardened. But then, maybe you used a carbon rod and hardened/tempered? I'm always reminded of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on the mauser and how, just about, if you were smoking cigarettes while working on a mauser you HAD to send it in to be re-heat treated!

[UBER7MM]

CopperLake,

I'd upgraded to a Timney trigger that changed the location where the sear engaged to cock during closing the bolt. After studying the problem the simplist solution that I could accomplish successfully was to add material to the sear tange. It does work quite well and salvaged what I'd thought was a lost cause project. I appreciate the caution regarding heat treating issues on Mausers, and plan to heat treat the sear.

If you can use my experiences, I'm glad to help.