Phooey to Blackpowder!!!!!

[BruceB]

I've HAD it (at least for a while).

There's a classic Shiloh Sharps' in my collection, recently rebarreled from a patch-throated .50-2.5 to the mundane .45-70, and a couple days back I decided to load a few blackpowder rounds for it.

OK, I know the routine, and in this episode I loaded some duplex loads with 5744 under a heavily-compressed charge of FFg Goex. To do that, I first sized and primed the brass, THEN dropped a 7.0 charge of 5744 in all the cases. THEN I weighed out the 62.0 FFg for each case, and THEN trickled each charge through a 36-inch drop tube. THEN, I used my built-that-day compression die to compress the charge by .250" under an .030" card wad. THEN I seated the 457406 SPG-lubed bullets, using a light crimp. FINALLY, I had a few rounds to shoot, which I did. Accuracy was so-so, which is no surprise considering that this was a load taken right from thin air (with research and thought).

THEN I had the pleasure of cleaning the rifle, and THEN cleaning the brass.

I'm sorry, I don't have the time for all this futzing around. For those masochists who do, more power to y'all. The wisdom of my choice of the .45-70 for my new barrel has never been more apparent, because this cartridge does VERY well with smokeless....and that's where my future loads will be, with smokeless.

Sheesh...I have NEVER worked so hard for so long to produce so few rounds.

Of course, I have no doubt that all this travail will eventually slip from my challenged memory, and the perfume of blackpowder smoke will again lure me from the straight and narrow....I hope it takes a LONG time, is all.

[9.3X62AL]

Bruce--

I have 50 rounds of BP-loaded cartridges for my #1 x 45-70, and although I didn't go through all the gyrations you did--the rounds shot VERY well in my #1--very consistent 1.25" 5-shotters at 100 yards. This done with Lee 405's and SPG, 1 Wonder Wad and a card wad, 55.0 grains of Goex 2F compressed just a little, and Fed 215 primers. All this is assembled in nickel-plated Rem hulls. These loads have been to date the best ever fired in this rifle, equalled by a couple groups using smokeless fuel but not surpassed. I suspect the "Government Ballseat" that Ruger chambers the #1 with might have something to do with its positive results with The Holy Black, but the rigamarole associated with its use does provide a clue to the popularity of the smokeless fuels.

[Buckshot]

.............BruceB, I am getting the impression that you find shooting BP in cartridges not such a hilarious pastime? Or at least the required movements afterwards :D?

After dropping the charge through a drop tube, that 1/4" of compression sounds like a lot. But I'm no BPCR shooter. I've shot 20 rounds from my 45-90, and that is TOTAL. Ditto the 577-450 (THAT about killed me!), and maybe 40-60 from the 45-70 in the Trapdoor.

I just followed the advice of the BPCR silhuette guys and brought a jug of water laced with dishwashing detergent. After firing I dropped them in. At home the jug got shook up well then dumped, refilled with warm water & shook and dumped. After that they were pretty clean but I ran a bottle brush into each case under running water. The next day they got tumbled.

Rifle cleanup was actually easier then smokless. My 3 band Snider is shot with BP only and the above routine is followed. More steps then just dropping them in the tumbler, but not too bad a deal.

..............Buckshot

[wills]

Obviously you have offended the gods by putting that whitepowder c**p in your loads, and they have responded accordingly!


(Chuck a nylon bore brush into an electric or cordless drill and you can make short work of brushing those cases)

(I tried lacing the water in my brass jug with dishwashing detergent, but decided the lacing was too time consuming, so now I just pour tthe detergent in the jug with the water and shake it up.)

[Tom Myers]

Bruce;

This the routine I use for one of my 40-65 loads that uses Swiss 1 1/2 powder and a 405 gr Lyman Snover Bullet.

The Snover bullet is 0.001" over groove dimensions, as cast, un-sized and either pan lubed or lubed in an oversized lubrisizer die.

Prime an UNSIZED case and meter 55 grains of powder from a Lyman measure that is placed directly above a 24" drop tube.

The 24 inch drop settles the powder to the correct height in the case so that it will need only about 0.005" of compression to seat the Snover bullet to the correct depth in the case. This compression is easily applied when the bullet is finger-seated and/or chambered.

A 0.035" card wad is placed on top of the powder column.

The Snover bullet is finger seated to the card wad and this provides a cartridge OAL that just seats the front band into the rifling and lightly compresses the powder when fully chambered.

Before firing each shot, 3 to 5 breaths are blown through the barrel with a piece of 1/2 in plastic tubing so as to soften and uniform the fouling consistency.

After each relay, the cartridges are deprimed and dropped into a jug of water.

Upon arriving home the cartridges are rinsed once and then dumped into a tumbler of ceramic media for 2 to three hours.

The cartridges come out of the tumbling process looking better than new, both inside and out, rinsed, and inserted into a drying rack ready to be loaded anew for the next match.

Simply put, the loading procedures are:
1. Prime.
2. Drop-tube the charge and seat wad.
3. Finger seat bullet.
4. Shoot.
5. De-prime and rinse.
6. Tumble.
7. Rinse and dry.

The cases have never stretched and never seem to need annealing as they are not over worked through sizing and expanding.

Rifle cleanup is extrordinarily simple. Three to four patches wet with either water or saliva and then wipe the crown clean with the last wet patch. Two dry patches and then an oil patch. Use the oil patch to wipe down the outside of the rifle and it is good to go for the next match.

The two items that make these procedures so simple are the Swiss powder and the ceramic media. The Swiss powder needs little or no compression to provide accurate loads with adequate velocity and accuracy. Furthermore, the ceramic media has absolutely simplified case cleanup.

Another help is a barrel chamber that is of minimum dimensions that will allow a bullet 0.001" over groove dimension to be slip fitted into a fired case.

Once all the little procedure details are ironed out, the whole process is simple, efficient and rewarding cast bullet shooting experience.

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

[Wayne Smith]

I haven't yet paid for Swiss, so I'm still compressing Goex. I made a compression plug for my arbor press and set that up between the powder measure (Lyman 55 w/drop tube). I prime cases, drop powder, add wad, compress, and seat the bullet.

I agree with Tom, ceramic media is the difference. I'll go through 50-100 44-40 cases and drop them in the media with water and soap. They come out clean. I then polish them cause I like them bright. Size and deprime, re-prime and they are ready.

[Scrounger]

I haven't yet paid for Swiss, so I'm still compressing Goex. I made a compression plug for my arbor press and set that up between the powder measure (Lyman 55 w/drop tube). I prime cases, drop powder, add wad, compress, and seat the bullet.

I agree with Tom, ceramic media is the difference. I'll go through 50-100 44-40 cases and drop them in the media with water and soap. They come out clean. I then polish them cause I like them bright. Size and deprime, re-prime and they are ready.

You guys make your own bullets. You make your own lube. When are you going to start making your own improved black powder?

[wills]

You guys make your own bullets. You make your own lube. When are you going to start making your own improved black powder?


Well, I, for one, procrastinate a lot.

[buck1]

Just shoot smokeless with alox. You still get the smoke anyway! LOL >>>BUCK

[ajc44mag]

Hi,Bruce.
Quite a turnaround from your last post.Here's what I think.

Don't persue a hobby that makes you unhappy.

There. You have a fine rifle in that Shilo,make smoke with whatever type powder you want.The point is ...find a way to be happy.Some guys shoot muskets...can't hit the side of a barn...from the inside...but they're happy..Some BPCR shooters (like me) are ok with "minute of rock"...or "Minute of Ram"...and happy if we hit.Some Bench Rest 6mmPPC guys aren't happy if their bullets don't all go into the same hole...but they keep trying,and happy to keep trying.
How bad was it?
How accurate do you expect your Sharps to be?
Is it you or the rifle?
I ask the last question of myself all the time...and put a BIG SCOPE on my Browning 40/65 to try to eliminate my shortcomings while trying to find a good combination of all those things you mentioned above.
I'll tell you this for sure...CASTING premium grade bullets has been ...BY FAR.. the hardest part of BPCR shooting/reloading so far.
It sounds unwise..but I guess I'm shooting BPCR ..BECAUSE it's hard in the first place,and that maybe I can get an edge by casting my own.
(which seems increasingly unlikely).
AJC

[Bent Ramrod]

BruceB,

Black-powder cartridge loading is definitely some kind of Zen discipline, endlessly fascinating to its adherents and occasionally edifying, marginally interesting, or downright tiresome to other shooters. It's a kick to find the right recipe and to get a small group out of the primitive propellant and cast bullets, and more than equally discouraging not to get one, especially when 50 smokeless cartridges can be loaded in less time than 20 blackpowder ones. And with the current price of black powder and the quantities needed, it can get as expensive or more than smokeless loading.

I find I really have to be in the right mood to load blackpowder cartridges. One of our local competitors spent what seemed to be all of his free time casting bullets, weighing powder and cleaning cases. Another actually burned out on the hobby, but now has come back, a little less intensively this time. He's added cowboy shooting (smokeless) to his list, and is glad of the relief from loading and cleaning.

As long as the firearm in question is a single-shot rifle, the cleanup is fairly easy. This does not carry over to lever-action repeaters or revolvers, although the inevitable disassembly, cleaning and reassembly can be put off for a few sessions by the use of Ballistol.

[longhorn]

Ah, Bruce, were you using a blow tube? Accuracy is certainly better with one consistently employed (I know from trying otherwise). Getting leading? Drop the 5744 from the load. The water+detergent shake, then ceramic media make brass cleaning much less a chore. You'll try again, one of these days-these Sharps are as addictive as canned beer and chewing tobacco.

[Blackwater]

Bruce, you're not alone in your frustrations by ANY means. I still consider myself pretty new to BPCR shooting, and if there were any mistakes I failed to make along the way, it was probably an accident.

IF you want to shoot the wonderful sulphurous stuff, I think maybe my experience may provide at least some help. I'm not familiar with the 457406 bullet. I assume it's designed for black? Black requires a heavier load of lube since it must not only lube the bullet, but there has to be enough left to soften the fouling as well. BP bullets usually have more and deeper grooves to allow for that.

IIRC, you used SPG, right? Good. Most (I did, at least) start with poor lubes that aren't compatible with black. It took half a day to get my barrel really clean again, and get all the asphalt like stuff out! At least you dodged that bullet, so don't expect much sympathy for one whose first results were WAY worse than yours, bud. ;-)

Seriously, looks like you did pretty well except for worrying too much and going through too many hoops because of all the hoopla over how "corrosive" black powder is aleged to be. Again, don't feel like the first. A buddy who recently got a .45/90 told me he'd have to SEE it and EXPERIENCE it to be able to FEEL comfortable with real black, and all I could tell him is that I was the exact same way until I got to know black a little better.

All I do for cleaning is use the spray bottle (already diluted) of Murphy's Oil Soap straight off the grocery store shelf. One patch soaked with the MOS on a tight patch and I follow with one clean dry patch to dry the bore is all I use to clean with. Then I wipe a clean dry patch on some of my bullet lube, get enough on it to put a plating of that in the bore, and run 'er up and down a couple of times, and I'm done cleaning the rifle. Done! Like someone else said, it's quicker and easier than cleaning either cast or jacketed with smokeless. If I have any fear that any fouling got down into the action of my rifle, I'll spray a blast of BC Gun Scrubber into the action, and then follow with a spray of Break Free CLP. Done. If I suspect there's more than a speck of BP fouling in the action, I'll spray or drop some MOS down in it, flush when I get home with warm water, let air dry and spray with BF CLP and that's it.

After firing a round, I put my cases in a water jug with some MOS in it, and let them soak until I get home. At home, I'll use the test tube brush under running warm water to clean them, and then shake dry and throw in my tumbler with walnut hull media. They're still damp, I guess you'd call it, but they come out nice and shiny.

All the salts in BP fouling are very easily and readily soluable by plain water. All the MOS does is just break any surface resistance down so the MOS can get into the fouling easier and quicker. The MOS is just an "accelerant" when used that way, if you will.

If you think back, most of the myths about black being so highly "corrosive" came to be when they used corrosive priming with black. I highly suspect that the corrosive priming had more to do with those horribly rusted barrels than the black powder fouling did. Then too, a lot of guns got shot back then and with folks being used to shooting smokeless, they just put them up without ANY sort of cleaning, and that was NOT a good thing to do with EITHER black or the corrosive primers of the day. Now that we have non-corrosive primers, I think it's a LOT harder to induce rust into a bore.

Casting the big BP slugs IS slower than throwing .38's for your S&W, but if the sun's over your shoulder just right, it's awe inspiring to watch the silver base of the bullet shine like a lantern as it arcs its merry way to the target.

The most helpful comment about loading black I ever got was from a guy who goes by the handle Rdnck. He said that the main thing in shooting black was to get the powder to burn well, and that depended on pressure. You have to get the pressure up, at ignition, to get a good burn. Swiss ignites more easily, and often requires no compression. Goex, on the other hand, is a "musket grade" powder, and usually requires compression to get enough of it behind the bullet to get your pressure up to a level where it'll burn clean and efficiently and consistently. Each powder, with each bullet, will have that narrow window where it'll do that.

If you're getting heavy fouling, your powder isn't burning well enough, and you need to get your powder burn up to a higher level so it'll burn right. Add more powder (but keep OAL the same, just compressing to the same height), jam the bullet tighter into the lands, use a hotter primer or heavier bullet, or do any combination of these things to get a better burn.

Just keep in mind that fouling can be a good indicator of what you need to do to adjust your load. If you're getting heavy fouling, and you're already jaming the bullet into the lands decently, try a hotter primer and/or a couple of grains more powder. Keep compression the same since the compression's determinant is just to get the powder down to the base of the bullet. Its use just allows you to use more powder under the bullet.

Harder alloy bullets will also up pressure, and can also lead to a better burn.

(cont'd below)

[Blackwater]

sacrificed 50 chickens on the dark and full of the moon, and all sorts of other things, but when Rdnck told me that the key is just to get the powder up to temp so it'll get a "good burn," that started me on the way to decent successes. The last thing to go was my fear of rust with black, and I don't think anything I or anyone can say will aleviate your fears there until you actually SEE it for yourself, just like my buddy cited above, as well as my own self.

Keep it as simple as you can, and I think your enjoyment quotient will go way up. It did for me and the others who've tried it. There are just some "initiation rites" that us long time smokeless burners have to go through, and fear of rust is probably the hardest one, at least emotionally. Wish I could help more, but at least you know that thousands of others are shooting it without rust, and think of Pope's guns, many of which shot hundreds of thousands of loads with black, and are STILL in great shape. That'll help, or at least it's helped me and others get through the initial rites, until you see and realize this for yourself.

BTW, one reason I like the MOS, which is mostly just water, with a veggie based soap (NOT detergent) instead of an animal fat based soap, thus lowering Ph and being less prone to rusting, is that it's so mild, so easy to clean up and dry out, and .... well, almost foolproof. Some of the exotic cleaning stuff you'll hear of MAY, under at least some circumstances, cause rust itself, so I just try to keep it as simple and basic as I can, and it's worked for several years now, so I don't plan on changing.

BP is more sensitive to load specs, but once you find your load, it doesn't change for that bullet except for when you get a new lot of powder, and then you only experiment to find what charge wt. reproduces the old lot's specs, which ain't much of a step for a stepper.

I think it's all the hoo-ha that makes the initial transition to black such a fearful and frustrating endeavor, but once you understand the differences between loading for black and for smokeless, it just ain't that hard to do. Look around. There are MANY of barely average intellect doing it, so just how darn hard can it really be???? :grin: Heck! Even I can do it, so you KNOW you can. You just don't FEEL COMFORTABLE yet, but that'll come with a bit of experience. I promise.

Sorry about the long post, but I know EXACTLY how you feel. Been there, done that, got the hat & tee shirt, etc. Just hope you get back to it and learn to have FUN with it. It CAN be the most funnest thing of all. Really!

[BruceB]

Many thanks for the extensive and detailed replies.

I hope you folks all realize just how valuable such responses are, first to the initial poster, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, to the ARCHIVES! When solid information is posted with enough detail for an inquiring handloader to actually follow, it increases the value of our collective experience a great deal, and makes this website even more valuable than it is already. It expands the data base far beyond the questions of today, and provides a great resource for future reference.

Now....this Shiloh and I go back a LONG way, it having been given to me by my wife around 1980, when the rifles were still made in Farmingdale, New York. It's serial number is only 34xx, and it was built as a .50-2.5". (My wife actually ordered a .50-3.25", and that's the way this one was stamped, but the chamber was actually 2.5". That gave me some confusion at first, lemme tell y'all.) Those early Shilohs had chambers cut for paper-patched bullets, and the net effect is that with normal grooved-and-lubed bullets, they have a massive freebore. Accuracy was horrible for the most part.

I finally sent it back to Shiloh late in 2003, who rebarreled it to .45-70 for half-price, and now it's a much better outfit all round.

I'm no stranger to blackpowder, having used it quite extensively in a variety of different firearms since about '65. Once I decided to give this new .45-70 barrel a "go" with it, I embarked on a serious re-study of the proposition. This included reading ALL the 35 pages of threads on "Shooter-to-Shooter" at the Shiloh website, as well as ALL 18 pages of threads on the "Blackpowder Shooting" forum on the same site. That is "threads", folks, NOT "posts". The posts number in the thousands. Also studied were a couple other BPCR Boards.

One very salient point coming out of all the reading was that Goex DEMANDS, not "prefers", demands, some serious compression for best results. Hence my 0.25" compression. The load did burn very cleanly.

I went with a duplex load for two reasons, one being that I do not want to mess with target-range refinements such as the blowtube, and the other because I also wanted to be able to fire at least 20 rounds in succession without impeding either function or accuracy. In this I was successful, as the rifle was still working fine at the end of 15 rounds, and the bore looked just about as it did after the first round. No leading occurred.

The clean-up after shooting holds no fears for me, and I too take a jug of water with detergent and vinegar to the range for the cases. I hand-brushed the wet cases at home, dried 'em in the sun, and a few hours in the tumber with some corncob and Turtle Wax Scratch 'n Swirl remover shines them just as if they were new.

Der Schuetzenwagen now has an extensively-equipped cleaning and gunsmithing bench, and that also helps make cleaning very convenient. The fouling was minimal, and the rifle was clean before it was cool!

Part of my disenchantment, I suspect, is a growing inability to see the sights very well. I have $500 worth of iron sights on that rifle, and I'm having a hell of a time seeing them! Blackpowder, naturally, has no effect on this condition and can't be blamed for it. One can imagine the effect this might have on groups....if I can't SEE, how can I shoot well? Doesn't exactly help my sunny disposition very much, either....

Thanks again for all the input.

[longhorn]

The sights are a problem for my trifocaled eyes, too. A Hadley style eyecup has really helped bring the front aperture into focus. 15 rounds with no blowtubing or wiping sounds pretty good to me-I can only fire 9 or 10 in my Sharps and 3 or 4 in my Browning before I can't push 'em into the chamber (different bullets, of course). Just what you needed-somebody suggesting another expensive sight doodad. What kind of sights? I've a Hadley-style that fits the Browning sights I'll send you to try if it'll work.

[BruceB]

Longhorn, pard;

That is a very fine and handsome offer, and I thank you.

My Sharps' rear sight is an Axtell Long Range model and I'm darned if I know what thread size is used for the aperture.

For some years, I've been using a set of German-made 'Knobloch' shooting glasses, which not only have an adjustable-iris aperture, but allow the shooter to place the lens and/or aperture in a vast range of positions. It's adjustable up, down, left-to-right, and is rotateable so that the lens is exactly at right angles to the line of sight, no matter what odd-ball position the shooter uses. The assembly comes with a special alignment device to ensure the correct orientation of the lens element to the sight line. I did NOT use these specs the other day with the blackpowder loads.

I may have to go back to the optician to see if a prescription can be found that will bring the front sight back into view. These glasses will hold a 1" diameter round lens, and that may well be what I end up with. I used these specs for competition pistol shooting (with a prescription lens) back when I still wore glasses, but my eyes were lasered a few years ago and I don't need specs for most purposes nowadays.

I haven't quite given up hope, but I may be slippin'....

[MGySgt]

BruceB - Just a thought - If your cases are Star Line you might want to anneal them. They are hard and thick and with the low chamber pressure of black you don't really get a good seal with them.

My 45/90 with star line (only brass in town) with out annealing Patterns not groups, with annealing sub inch. With the import Sharps replica I still have to load to black powder pressures.

Just my humble opinon!

Drew

[Blackwater]

Bruce, I can REALLY relate to your eyesight situation! BIG time! One suggestion: I've found that an aperture insert in the front sight helps keep me from some vertical dispersion due to changing light. You might give that a whirl, if you already haven't. Sorry about the long post, but BPCR is a passion, and .... well, you know. Sometimes I go overboard, but maybe it'll help some beginning shooter to give it a whirl. It's surprising how addictive that acrid smell of sulphur can be, isn't it? :grin:

BTW, a buddy has one of those original Farmingdales, and it's one NICE rifle! His was a .50 3 1/4" originally, then was rebarreled to .40/90 SBN, and now wears a good Badger .45/70 barrel. The rascal never shoots the thing, but I get him to haul it out so I can drool over it every now and then. Good rifles need to be appreciated!

Good to hear you were just joshin' about giving it up. I had one whale of a hard time "converting" over, and finally had to realize I was dealing with another whole set of rules for loading the Holy Black. It was like starting out all over again, only I tried to take what I knew about white powder and apply it to black. That didn't work so hot.

Take care and good shooting to you.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Bruce, I can REALLY relate to your eyesight situation! BIG time! One suggestion: I've found that an aperture insert in the front sight helps keep me from some vertical dispersion due to changing light. You might give that a whirl, if you already haven't. Sorry about the long post, but BPCR is a passion, and .... well, you know. Sometimes I go overboard, but maybe it'll help some beginning shooter to give it a whirl. It's surprising how addictive that acrid smell of sulphur can be, isn't it? :grin:

BTW, a buddy has one of those original Farmingdales, and it's one NICE rifle! His was a .50 3 1/4" originally, then was rebarreled to .40/90 SBN, and now wears a good Badger .45/70 barrel. The rascal never shoots the thing, but I get him to haul it out so I can drool over it every now and then. Good rifles need to be appreciated!

Good to hear you were just joshin' about giving it up. I had one whale of a hard time "converting" over, and finally had to realize I was dealing with another whole set of rules for loading the Holy Black. It was like starting out all over again, only I tried to take what I knew about white powder and apply it to black. That didn't work so hot.

Take care and good shooting to you.


I have a Browning BPCR 45/70 back home and I can't wait until I get a more settled existence so that I can start casting again and finally get to wring out this lovely rifle.

Mick.

[Buckshot]

I have a Browning BPCR 45/70 back home and I can't wait until I get a more settled existence so that I can start casting again and finally get to wring out this lovely rifle.

Mick.
__________________

............Are they still chasing you?

............Buckshot