Tang sight ID help

[selmerfan]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to the ID question, but what is a sight like this worth? It's the one that came on the Stevens 44 1/2 that I inherited from my great-grandfather. It is a Harry Pope windage adjustable tang sight, correct? The adjustments work perfectly, sight is in excellent condition. I'm not interested in selling, but wondering what market value is. It's easily 100 years old.
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Photo03091555_zps09a8c14a.jpg
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Photo03091556_zps80c8e1ff.jpg
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Photo03091556_1_zps84942ade.jpg
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Photo03091556_2_zps8b2a698f.jpg

[fa38]

Looks like a replica of a Pope sight. The aperture eyepiece does not look like Popes. Could be a Parts Unknown sight. They were a very good replica of the Pope

[selmerfan]

Thanks. I can't find any markings on it anywhere. It's been on the rifle since it was new. How do I know that? By the 100% perfect case hardening on the tang under the sight! Pretty amazing to see the contrast.

[selmerfan]

The aperture centerpiece is removable, I assume for larger or small diameter apertures.

[John Boy]

Pope 200yd Schuetzen sight with sun shade (shades are not common)

[selmerfan]

John Boy - is the sun shade the center piece that shades the aperture? Any idea what a sight like that is worth? And any way to verify that it is a Pope sight and not a replica? Not that it really matters, as it will stay with the rifle, but I'm trying to get an insurance value on the whole package. And I can therefore presume that it will allow enough elevation adjustment to make a .30-30 hit dead on at 200 yds?

[Bent Ramrod]

Don't know about the value, but it looks like it has been threaded in the center for the Vaver inserts that used to be sold with the Vaver sight. There were a series of them with different size apertures in them, and you could change them out depending on the light conditions. More recent than the original Hadley eye cup which is now the standard variable reproduction peep sight; could have been done in the 1920's or 1930's on a Pope original eyecup. I don't think the Pope sight, as made, had a variable aperture in it.

Do you have the rest of the inserts? They screwed into threaded holes in a metal plate so the unused ones wouldn't get lost.

[selmerfan]

I don't have any other inserts - the center is actually two separate pieces, neither of which is threaded. There is the aperture plate which is sandwiched between the main eye cup and the other plate which has the smaller center opening in it. This is held in place by a circle of spring wire, kind of like a snap ring, but not, on the inside circumference of the larger eye cup. Does that make sense. :grin:

[fouronesix]

Looks like a replica of a Pope sight. The aperture eyepiece does not look like Popes. Could be a Parts Unknown sight. They were a very good replica of the Pope

Agreed, based on catalog diagrams and photos of original Pope tang sights in "Old Gunsights" by Stroebel. Could very well be a H.M. Pope clone of some sort. Several small differences between originals and this sight. Originals quite valuable, repros ?

[selmerfan]

Oh well, it works well and is part of the package. :) Hopefully it will have enough elevation adjustment to get a .30-30 dead on at 200 yds.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

selmerfan, here are pictures of a Vaver front sight along with inserts. Could you post pictures of the 44-1/2 Stevens you inherited? I would love to see them. I have one but have had others. It is one of my favorite single shots and the only one designed for smokeless powder.

[selmerfan]

Here are a few - not great pics, but should give you a pretty good idea of condition - quite good for no restoration work! It will be headed to CPA soon to have a .30-30 WCF barrel fitted so that I can use great-grandpa's gun for deer hunting - it's already an unparalleled squirrel rifle. :grin:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Gas_and_gun_pics_005.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Gas_and_gun_pics_006.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Gas_and_gun_pics_007.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Gas_and_gun_pics_013.JPG

[GOPHER SLAYER]

selmerfan, you didn't mention what caliber your rifle is now. What ever it is it is much too valuable to rebarrel. That gun is in beautiful shape. The scope appears to be a Winchester. Whatever it is it is also worth a lot of money. Here is some sound advice. Leave the rifle as is. I have been down that road before and regretted my choice every time. You would have thought once was enough.

[selmerfan]

Gopher slayer, here's the beautiful thing. I'm fully aware of all that. The scope is actually the original J.C. Steven 6x that came with the rifle, probably as a small-bore package (chambered in .22 LR now). The Stevens 44 1/2 action is a "takedown". On the bottom of the receiver, near the forend, is a large, slotted, set screw. Back that out, open the action to pull the extractor back, and the barrel can be turned out by hand. CPA rifles, www.singleshotrifles.com, makes repro 44 1/2 actions that are slightly larger in the barrel shank to accomodate larger case diameters than the original, but they also make barrels to fit directly onto this action - hand-screwed on. I will be sending them this complete rifle so that they can fit the different breech block needed for centerfire cartridges and a new barrel. Both are easily removable, no alteration to the original is needed, and it will take me minutes to change out the barrel and breech block, returning it to original state quickly with zero loss in value. I'll take some pics later of the barrel removed. This was the first falling block designed for smokeless powder chamber pressures and will handle any reasonable loads from cartridges as large as the .30-30 family - the action was designed to handle 50,000 psi pressures. I'm not devaluing the gun and look forward to the options of different chamberings!

[selmerfan]

Here's a short photo essay on "taking down" the 44 1/2. I only learned this about the rifle within the last 10 days and I've had it for 8 years in my possession.

First, the set screw, center of the photo, the large, slotted screw. Second photo shows this screw removed.

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5322_zps68c88b64.jpg

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5323_zps1bf069a5.jpg

Next, we have to get the extractor out of the way so that the barrel shank can rotate freely. The first picture shows the extractor in place, the second with the extractor fully in the rear position which means the lever is all the way open and pushed forward.

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5325_zps6d52ce90.jpg

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5327_zps336910b0.jpg

Now all we have to do is rotate the barrel and forend counter-clockwise and screw the barrel out - hand force is the only leverage necessary! The first photo is the first half-turn. The second photo is the gun "taken down". Pretty straight-forward and can be done in under a minute. I know for a fact that this barrel has not been removed for at least 50 years - when it went into grampa's closet, but it came out slick as a whistle the first time I tried it.

http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5328_zps6b80083e.jpg
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5329_zpsc2db05cd.jpg

Last but not least, a picture of the frame without the barrel, up close on the shank area.
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu58/selmerfan/Gun%20photos/IMG_5330_zpsb42ae662.jpg

[fa38]

The original Pope sights had a small stiff wire with a loop on the end that was stored in a hole on the sight. You pulled the wire out of its storage and used it to rotate the two small disks or wheels under the aperture. A lot of the originals are missing this adjusting wire.
If the sight does not have enough elevation to give you a 200 yard zero you can make a small block to fit under the sight for more elevation. My original on a 32-40 Stevens Pope 44 ½ had to be almost to the top of the adjusting range for 200 yards. I no longer have the rifle and the sight and other Pope tools went with the rifle.

[selmerfan]

This one has a wire in it, but it's definitely a retaining clip. Using the small holes to turn the "nuts" on this are a royal PITA. Any tips? Other than "set it and forget it"....

[GOPHER SLAYER]

selmerfan, I am glad to see you are on top of the situation. Did your Grandfather keep the original peep sights that came on the rifle? I would like to see pictures when the work is complete. I have a beautiful Steven's 44-1/2 that is in .22 long rifle. I wish it were a take down or chambered for 32-40. Better yet 38-55. The tang sight on mine is a Lyman that is adjustable for windage. Thank you very much for sharing the pictures. I had a chance to buy a Steven's scope that had offset mounts made for someone who was right handed but had a bad right eye. This mounts allowed the shooter to hold the rifle as he normally would but sight with his left eye. The only scope I ever saw so equipped. The asking price was only 75 dollars but sadly I passed. Oh well. Thanks again

[fa38]

selmerfan
I think I used the Pope sight two or three times while I had the rifle. Most shooting was done with a Lyman STS scope. Adjusting the sight for different loads or ranges is a pain in the butt which is the reason I did not use it very much.


Gopher Slayer
I think all Stevens 44 ½ rifles had a screw to retain the barrel, centerfire and rimfire. I think CPA could make another breech block and fit a barrel in any caliber you could want and you then have a switch barrel/cartridge rifle.

I have 44 ½ 22 LR that has an original Stevens barrel that is quite heavy and I also have a half octagon No. 2 weight barrel that I plan on having fitted to the rifle.

[fa38]

My 44 1/2. The lever is someones reproduction of a Pope. The hammer is from CPA I think their speed lock hammer. I purchased the rifle a couple of years ago with the reproduction parts and the original hammer and lever.
I don't know who made the front sight. The rear sight is a Baldwin Soule with the short staff.

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[selmerfan]

Gopher Slayer. I'm a pastor, and I like to tell people about the Good News. However, the good news that I have for you this evening is that the "take-down" feature of my Stevens 44 1/2 is not something unique - it's standard. Take a quick look at yours - it should have the exact same set screw on the bottom of the action that mine does, enabling you to do the exact same thing that I am doing. :) You and I appear to have about the same rifle set-up with stocks. Take a look, let us know! It was sure exciting news when I found out about it just last week!

[GOPHER SLAYER]

selmerfan, I checked and my rifle is so equipped. Now for the hard part. Could you tell me what the Shuttleworths get for a new breachblock and barrel?

[selmerfan]

Depends on what you want for barrel details, but the starter (Douglas Premium) is $600 fitted to your gun. Breechblock is $100 and extractor $25, if I remember all of that correctly. It's all listed here...http://singleshotrifles.com/ under "barrels" or "parts and accessories" and/or give them a call.

[selmerfan]

The hard part for me is that in order to make this happen I have to sell one of my other rifles, but I'm okay with that. If I really get in a bind a member over at www.assra.com offered me $900 for my tang sight yesterday...

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Thanks selmerfan. That project does carry a big price tag. I will have to think about that conversion for a while. I already have several large caliber single shot rifles including two 38-55s. I have no personal attachment to my Stevens. I think it would be better to sell it or possibly trade for something I want more. Also I have several 22 target rifles Including a nice BSA MARK II. I want to thank you again for answering my questions. That was very gracious of you.