Shooting the 6.5 Kurtz

[Maineboy]

I was able to get to the range today with 3 different loadings of Buckshot's 6.5 boolit. It appears to be a good one.
I used my M96 Carl Gustaf and shot at 100 yards. Boolits are tumble lubed and sized .267, cast of wheel weights and air hardened. No fillers used.
Load 1 was 13.4 grains of 2400. I picked this charge because it works so well in my Krag, which has a similar case capacity. The two 5 shot groups measured 2.75" and 3.0" The last one had 4 in 1.5".
Load 2 was 9.0 grains of Unique This one shot nearly as well, 2.75 and 3.25 but velocity is noticibly slower. (I forgot to bring the Chrony)
Load 3 was 16 grains of SR4759. This one didn't do well at all, 4" and 5".
I also shot some 266 645s over 16 grains of SR4759 with dacron that were loaded around 9 months ago. This one shot 3" and has proven to be a fairly consistant load. I'm beginning to believe that 4759 needs a filler to work well.
The next loadings will be with the same powders but with charges a grain above and below today's loadings.
I also shot my CMP 1903, which hasn't gotten nearly as much use as the 03A3 has. I didn't do any better with it than I did with the Swede.
This was my first trip to the range since April. I gotta go more often.

[Oldfeller]

45 2.1

Hmmmmmmm ..... 2-3-6 inches --

It seems that Loverin types are not magically exempt from the Karlina curse.

Any thoughts here? "Buckshot's bullet" is hitting some rough water right off the bat it seems. Three folks reporting curse symptoms even with 9 twist guns.

You shot it yet?

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller....who's the three..myself, maineboy..I must have missed the other. Well let's give it some time. See what happens with different alloy and I'm going to let my bullets cure a week or so like 45. 2.1 said and rerun the test.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Picky picky picky -- I was counting me except 1) I got no range to shoot at 2) I am hundreds of miles away from my Karlina and 3) you got my mold so I ain't even cast any 6.5 Kurtz yet.

It wuz only a small brain-fart, just a little dinner table "squeezer" type.

Or we could blame Buckshot for sitting silent on us uncounted, after all he got his molds first and you know he cast some (cause he said so) before he even shipped the rest of them molds out.

Iffen I had new molds and a Tuesday at the range came and went -------

Oldfeller

[Maineboy]

O.F. and Starmetal, I'm pretty happy with this first outing. I don't consider 2-3" groups bad at all. I'm shooting iron sights in a milsurp rifle at 100 yards using my 54 year old eyes. I don't expect alot more. I have a scope sighted M38 that I'll try with this boolit the next time I go to the range.

[StarMetal]

maineboy

Well I didn't say your shooting was bad, in fact that's pretty good. Thing is what was the velocity?

Joe

[Oldfeller]

We got some folks slinging 172 grain cruise missiles that do about that good at those less than 1,650 fps lower speed ranges. It isn't bad shooting, it is good plinking/hunting level accuracy -- but it simply isn't good target-level accuracy.

We were searching for some "mo betta" performance out of this little short slug, something that could take a Dan contest mold away from him if shot at those same sub-speeds. Dan's contest rules were 3 consecutive 100 yard 10 shot groups at 1 minute of angle or less (bullet spinning 200,000 rpm which out of a Carl Gustav tube is 2,040 fps)

Joe has fired 6.5 slugs at around an inch up at 2,200 fps out of a 9 twist just recently -- 45 2.1 sent him the slugs and gave him the loading info. These same tricks are NOT working with the little 6.5 Kurtz slug (but we will wait for the freshly cast slugs to age out a bit and for 45 2.1 to shoot his and Buckshot to shoot his and Joe to shoot his again).

Rocks and shoals for the target level shooting so far though .....

Karlina's done got all dressed up in red leather & high heels and she's got her riding crop out again. Buckshot ain't a posting on his 6.5 Kurtz cause he hasn't managed to get hisself untied yet.

Swissssh -- POP!!

"Ouchie!"

"You vill put perfume in my lubricant, vill you not, my little darling ??? I dispise the vay alox smells.... you vill do this, no?" (swish..... swish)

"Yes, Karlina, mistress of darkness, yes I will, right away Karlina darling"

<g>

Oldfeller

[Buckshot]

...........I'ts in the mould cabinet. My pot is still full of pure lead. Just finished up the Tubal-2000 surplus powder testing. Two posters had sent machine work to be done, and they got fit in and finished up.

I'd ordered some machine tooling from MSC and it arrived today and I had been busy cleaning up a couple faceplates, and a 3rd with T slots. The stuff I ordered was so I could do boring operations on faceplate mounted stuff as the 4 jaw isn't the best for everything. Some mould cavities are just flat wacky, and shimming jaws on a 4 jaw is a PITA. MUCH easier to do in a set of V blocks on a faceplate.

I wish I could afford to retire!

I suppose this coming Monday I can cast out the pure lead into 58 cal Minie' moulds and get it reloaded with a suitable alloy for the new 6.5's. If I do, they won't get shot until the following Tuesday, if then. I'm hoping though.

..............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Okay..I said I would let the bullets cure some and repeat the test. I did so today. The bullets have cured for just alittle over a week now. I used the same load. Well..same results if not a tad worst. That is a round 3 inch group at 100 meters. I sized some that I didn't have already sized and lubed and they were DEFINATELY alot harder and alot harder to size. So, as no disrespect to 45 2.1, I haven't seen any difference, at least in this case, between shooting the bullets the same day cast as opposed to letting them cured. So now it's a game of switching powders or switching loads with the same powder. If you remember I shot quite a few different powder loads previously. This is the same crap that I had from the beginning with cast in this 260 Rem until 45 2.1 sent those Lyman hollowpoints (that weren't hollowpointed by the way) and help get my 260 shooting very respectable indeed. I did use the same alloy as the ones 45 2.1 sent. Back up against the tree with this bullet at least.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Well, not exactly the same alloy. My alloy I use is 1/2 wheelweights and 1/2 winchester reject rifle bullet core material ( which is harder than pure lead, but still pretty soft) which really isn't available. Air cooled it does about 8 BHN and water dropped it goes about 16 to 18 BHN. Part of the problem with useing heat treated slugs is getting the hardness so that it yields just slightly at the pressure level your shooting. The old timers always were concern with bullet temper (hardness). This is something that doesn't come easily, you have to have allot of practice to get this where it works (at least most of the time).

[StarMetal]

I would have to say my compromise of 60-65 % ww's and 35-40 % pure lead has to be pretty dang close to your alloy. Funny...I've gotten alot of rifles to shoot really really good with no matter what the alloy I used. The 6.5 apparently is finickly.

Well if that's the cause, alloy that is, then I quit...I'm not fooling with precise alloys just to get this gun to shoot. I'll shoot jacketed out of it as it shoots those really good and doesn't matter who's jacketed alloy it is...Hornady, Sierra, Speer, Remington, etc.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal--a 3 inch group??? You forgot to fold up your target before you measured.

[StarMetal]

Back again. You fellows surely didn't think I was going to give up did ya? Switched powder. This time surplus 5010. Used 45 grs to start with, with a Dacron wad, even tho the powder come up to the base of the neck. No starter of faster powder. To the few that have talked to me they know I've mentioned this gun didn't like a dirty barrel. Even so I fired five shots out of the dirty barrel from the previous testing. Four shot into 3/4 of an inch, two in one hole, with the first shot being a flyer. Now we're talking. By the way the velocity was 2132 fps.

Carpetman, if you can't contribute to get the 6.5 shooting out of everyone's gun, then please keep your assinine comments to yourself.

Looks like this alloy will shoot, only with certain powders.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Yeah, IMR 5010 will start out shooting sweetly in a nice clean tube (for about 10 shots). Then the heavy cruddy 5010 fouling starts robbing away your accuracy and by the time 20 shots are gone you got a 2-3 hour job just getting the fouling out of your Gustav's tube. (my lot of 5010 anyway).

Good to hear that slower powders make it sling the little slug better, it gives everyone a direction to start exploring.

Carpetman is a pain sometimes as he likes to run a funny into the ground (and this is coming from me no less)

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Kelly

I haven't found my 5010 to be extremely dirty. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly more dirty then the faster powders. Ten shots of anykind of powder in my 260 seems to make the groups spread. It definately doesn't like a dirty bore. Kinda reminds me of what they say about 17 caliber rifles.

I'm going to try a duplex load with the 5010. I would have this last time except I couldn't find my little minature scooper for the faster primer powder. We'll see if that will do any better.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

My lot of IMR 5010 cruds up a Gustav bore terribly badly -- too much trouble to clean it. That is why I tend to stick to loads using 2400 and Unique in the Swede as they will steady state out at something that is on-going shootable. I like loads that do not require a lot of barrel cleaning maintenance. I've got such in 8mm and up, and have learned to like not having to clean up all the time.

Oldfeller

[felix]

Somebody needs to have a tall land, slow twist barrel made in 264. For example, 60% groove, 40% lands @ 6 @ .0045 @ 12 for starters. Let's go to chat now, and talk about it. ... felix

[waksupi]

I will point out to the members, if you don't enjoy, or agree, with any individual on the board, you can go to the top of the page. Click on "Quick Links". Then "Control Panel". From there, look on the left side of the page for the "Miscellaneous" listing. From there, you will come to an "Ignore" listing, that you can add a board members name to, and not have to view thier posts. I've not tried it out myself, as I pretty much like everyone here. But it is an option for you to try out, if you feel the necessity.


Back again. You fellows surely didn't think I was going to give up did ya? Switched powder. This time surplus 5010. Used 45 grs to start with, with a Dacron wad, even tho the powder come up to the base of the neck. No starter of faster powder. To the few that have talked to me they know I've mentioned this gun didn't like a dirty barrel. Even so I fired five shots out of the dirty barrel from the previous testing. Four shot into 3/4 of an inch, two in one hole, with the first shot being a flyer. Now we're talking. By the way the velocity was 2132 fps.

Carpetman, if you can't contribute to get the 6.5 shooting out of everyone's gun, then please keep your assinine comments to yourself.

Looks like this alloy will shoot, only with certain powders.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Naw, it's more fun to just tell him. Carpetman like most of us can get off into the weeds on occasion -- all you gotta do is call his attention to it.

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

waksupi

What you say is very true, it's not only that I don't like the snide remarks, but I don't like someone spreading them to others that may actually believe them. That's why I don't use ignore.

Kelly is right. I don't dislike Ray, alot of his stuff is really funny. There's been many times where I've just about fell out of my chair laughing at some of it. But sometimes he dwells on something too much. Ric I'll bet you're tired of hearing about your association with sheep. I know I am.

Oh to be rich. I know I'd do alot more different things with the money then Donald Trump or Paul McCartney. One example is I would pay all costs to have all of you fellows to come to a shoot at a chosen range somewhere and put to rest finally the ******** about who is a keyboard shooter and who really can shoot. Did Ray hit a nerve? Yes, he did. I may not have been an astronaut and stepped on the moon, an inventor who amazed the world with his invention, Albert Einstein, you get the point...but there have been two things I really loved from a young lad and they are guns and cars. I think I have done very well in those two fields and by God I know I can shoot good and I know I can build a hell of a car engine.

Joe

[waksupi]

Kelly is right. I don't dislike Ray, alot of his stuff is really funny. There's been many times where I've just about fell out of my chair laughing at some of it. But sometimes he dwells on something too much. Ric I'll bet you're tired of hearing about your association with sheep. I know I am.

I don't have any associatin with sheep whatsoever. What are you implying?

[carpetman]

Waksupi---"I don't have any associatin with sheep whatsoever." Does this mean other activities but not associatin? What is associatin?

[StarMetal]

Waksupi

To keep things from getting too far off track I'm not implying anything. Why does Ray tease you so much about sheep? Ray and I both see you don't have an association with association, but with associatin. What is that anyways?

Joe

[felix]

Joe, Ray does not tease anyone having confidence in themselves! Remember, Ray's background is in obtaining and grading personnel for some duty. It is up to him to recommend where the recruit goes after "basic". If that person is sensitive to some kinds of scrutiny, then that person will be limited to jobs having minimal personal contact. Keep that in mind, please!!! ... felix

[waksupi]

It's like walkin, spittin, cussin, chewin, and drinkin. I does them all. You guys sure do know a lot about sheep, and how to not offend them. I always knew you guys were kinder and gentler.

Which lip do you kiss a sheep on?

[Bret4207]

I love it! Pots calling kettles black and all that. And I thought I was the only one with a short temper.

[waksupi]

Bret, I'm still laughing. Kind of defensive, aren't they?

[Frank46]

Buckshot, don't you just love the MSC catalog?. Kinda makes you wish you were rich to be able to afford all those goodies. Sorry for being off topic. Frank

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, don't you just love the MSC catalog?. Kinda makes you wish you were rich to be able to afford all those goodies. Sorry for being off topic. Frank

The MSC catalog is in the shop. The ENCO catalog is on the floor next to the crapper. The monthly sales fliers are liable to be anywhere! I wish they'd quit sending that stuff!

..............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

Oldfeller, "............Good to hear that slower powders make it sling the little slug better, it gives everyone a direction to start exploring."

.........I think it was about 1995 or 96 I pretty much settled on 32-36 grs of surp WC872 as "The Load" for me and my 6.5x55's :D. Lets see, a few examples from over the years:

http://www.fototime.com/D8F746F5F60AB27/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/ED85D15612B17F9/standard.jpg
On the left here we have some vinatge velocity-accuracy tests with the Lyman 268645 "Hi-Velocity" design @ 152grs. On the right are just some tests of powder positoning and crimping.

http://www.fototime.com/8D65C37E75D7824/standard.jpg
This was shot just after the Oldfeller 172gr slug came out. The 2 targets on the left were fired with a M96/38 Swede (24" bbl) and 34.0grs WC872. Oldfeller's slug and the Lyman 152 gr. The 2 on the right are again the same charge and boolits, but this time fired from a M96 (29" bbl) for the velocity difference. Not too bad for the Oldfeller at over 1750 fps. The lighter 152gr Lyman plunked 4 into less then 7/8" at 50 yards.

As a matter of fact, before I sold that Lyman SC 122gr Loverin RNHP 6.5mm mould to 45 2.1, I had cast up a hundred or so slugs from it. The 2 Jumptrap Lee custom booits at 140+ grs weren't doing anything special re: velocity and accuracy. I had hopes for the Light Lyman.

And the Oldfeller 172gr, which was an extra heaping helping of heaviness still didn't breakdown any supposed velocity-accuracy barrier by being heavier and longer.

http://www.fototime.com/142E2E3B975802E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FFB204A75BA36E1/standard.jpg
So along came the little old tiny Lyman 266445 HP Loverin. On the left are the Light Lymans. On the right with the same charges are the 152gr Lymans (268645).

That 39.0gr charge of WC872 represents a bit over 2,000 fps. I think maybe 2078 fps or some such. I hadn't enough of the little Lymans to experiment with powders, so I used what I knew did well, WC872. I started at 32.0 grains and loaded to 39.0 grs in 1 grain jumps. All 10 round groups.

In order to get the 80 boolits for the Light Lymans, I had to go back and pull some out of the cull pile to complete the test.

http://www.fototime.com/8B8B8013CDC151A/standard.jpg
1) Lyman 266445, 122gr RNHP
2) Jumptrap Lee custon 2cav 142gr FN
3) Lyman 268645, 152gr so called "Hi-Velocity" design
4) Oldfeller Lee custom 172gr FN "Cruise Missle"

So this new 6.5mm at 135grs or so is going to fall midpoint of the old Lyman Loverin and the Jumptrap 142 grainer. If weight is the deal with the fast twist in the Swede, possibly the new slug will in fact top out at close to 2000 fps, accurately and then begin to fall apart.

However, when I get some cast up, you can bet it'll be over a case with WC872 in it :D At least to start out!

..............Buckshot

[swheeler]

Buckshot; looks like I may have to revisit the 872 again, but with a different lot. From what I see you were using one of the faster ones, I have 2 lots that are 200 fps different in 06 case with same loading, looking back I tried the SLOW stuff with dismal results.
Scooter

[swheeler]

tried Wc872 5 ea 30-34 grs with poly wad,std primer. Smallest group 3.6 in vert strung with 30 gr load. 170 cast, 13.5 Alcan AL5, no filler, std primer, 10 shots @ 100 yds 2.6W x 2.125 H, first five into 1.25 in, M96 swede. Now I remember why I settled on this load and not 872, or 860, or 5010- my J load with the 140 Rem CL is 53.0 gr WC860, but this powder won't work for me with cast, Seem fitting that a Swedish powder work better in a Swedish rifle! he-he-he
Scooter

[Char-Gar]

The three lies Cowboys tell:

1. See this gold and silver beltbuckle? Well I won it at the rodeo!

2. See that brand new 4WD pickup? Well it is mine and it is paid for!

3. Honest, I was just trying to help that sheep through the fence!


And then there is the one about the insurance salesman doing cold calls on an Indian Reservation........

[swheeler]

chargar: I don't know about the first two, but I have HEARD about the "Texas blondes", could you give us an indepth view from personal experience? On second though I don't want to know!

[swheeler]

6.5 and AL5 170 OF

[Oldfeller]

SWheeler posts another fine example of why the 6.5 cruise missle isn't a true target level bullet, but it could likely put a hole through 2 deer stacked side to side (or one deer stacked end to end). With no recoil that you can detect. And very mild noise, too.

How fast? What distance?


Now the 6.5 Kurtz could do about the same sort of damage to one deer and it would be a LOT easier to cast up a big mess of them to play with.

Likely less demanding to find a good load for your individual gun, too.

Oldfeller

[45 2.1]

SWheeler posts another fine example of why the 6.5 cruise missle isn't a true target level bullet, but it could likely put a hole through 2 deer stacked side to side (or one deer stacked end to end). With no recoil that you can detect. And very mild noise, too.Oldfeller

Mr. Wheeler hasn't found the load yet. The cruise missle is indeed a target quality bullet. Keep trying, someday you will get it. Thats about half the fun of useing cast.

[swheeler]

I think I could get them to shoot better if some of them weren't bent, they are bent from patting themselves on the back!!!! Design flaw I believe.

[swheeler]

100 yds- 1500 fps

[45 2.1]

I think I could get them to shoot better if some of them weren't bent, they are bent from patting themselves on the back!!!! Design flaw I believe.

You're the one who can't get them to shoot, quite a few others have. Consider that bullet your graduating diploma, that is if you can graduate. Don't break your arms from congratulating yourself with a snappy reply either.

[Ed Barrett]

Loaded up some rounds with the new 6.5 got everything loaded up for a trip to the range and left the loaded 6.5's on the kitchen table. Between going to the doctor and company coming to stay for the last two weeks my schedule and brain have gone to hell. Things should be a little better next week, if I can afford gas to drive to the range.