Group Size 100 Yds ?

[Fly]

Be honest, what would be a good PRB group at 100 Yds, off bench?

Fly:roll:

[NSB]

At one time I had four TC muzzle loaders....a long time ago! I shot them a lot back then and tried different patch material, lubes, and powder granulations and weights. I could get a repeatable group of sub 4" for five shots at 100 yds. I've heard stories about getting really small groups, etc. but when I would go to the regional matches I never saw it. I usually won when I went and I've never, never seen a group less than two inches with open sights on a side hammer gun. My Savage inline with smokeless, will shoot five shots into an inch and a half at that distance with a scope off the bench. Needs the right sabot and bullet to do it but it will do it. Just doesn't smoke so it takes some of the fun away.

[leeggen]

I have 2 TC Hawkens- .50 and.54 never got better than 6in. at 50yd.

[fouronesix]

Dang Fly!

Cabin fever is getting me too. Nonetheless, very good and valid question. 40 years ago I could regularly put five .54 PRBs in about a 2 1/2" cluster at 100 yds from a good rest out of a Hawken I built. Semi buckhorn rear with small notch and fairly thin front blade. Today- not a chance! Maybe I could coax that out of it now with a good tang peep and globe front.

These days I mostly shoot at 50 yards. Most of my PRB guns and a couple of the muskets will easily do 1 1/2" or less at 50 yards with a roundball, mounted with open sights and from a rest. A couple of them will average closer to 3/4" at 50 yds most days.

[Fly]

NSB I think you are a VERY honest man.I just want to see the averege.Some times it is hard for people to
be honest, when it come to there shooting.
Fly

[Fly]

This may be a very intestesting tread?

Fly

[DIRT Farmer]

Depends on what you are shooting. I would guess that you mean hunting guns. The three barrels set up on my TC hawkin (40, 50, and 54) will run around two inches with a peep sight, Lyman front and sand bags. open sights, I wish I could see six inches with open sights.

[fouronesix]

Fly,
'For average' has to include those days when vision or conditions or too much coffee or something just scatters the hits around the target :)

Seriously, When shooting for fun or not cleaning between shots or not too serious about accuracy, my groups will be a bunch larger! But, when conditions are really good and when paying attention to every little detail and the eyes are working right and when I am trying to isolate only how good the GUN/LOAD will shoot I can usually do pretty well so the groups will reflect the full potential of the equipment not the shooter.

Then sometimes things just work out. The very first groups I shot out of an original M1841 .54 Mississippi at 50 yards were, measured center to center, .6" and .7" at 50 yds. It's an original so I don't shoot it very much for obvious reasons- that's what repros are for! The very first group I shot out of a .45 flinter I finished last year was measured at .9" at 50 yards. That first Hawken with PRBs from years ago actually shot an unbelievable first group at 100 yards IIRC <2". Now 40 years later off a rest it averages something like 1-1 1/4" off a rest at 50 yds. I have an original .58 M1863 rifled musket that will average 1 1/2" at 50 yds with minies. I have a .45 T/C "Hawken" flinter fitted with a tang peep that will average about 1" at 50 yds with PRBs. The 100 yard testing is not so valid these days as the sight resolution just isn't there and would require good aperture/globe sight or scope. Not going there with these guns (with the exception of the peep with blade on the T/C). What little hunting I've done with MLs the last few years simply calls for a <75 yard shot. The last bull elk I killed with a ML I called in to about 10 yards!

[longbow]

I've got a .50 cal. CVA Hawken I built from a kit long ago. My wife bought me a Navy Arms brass scope for it (a little out of place but what the hey!) and I would swear I could maintain 4" groups or less at 100 yards with PRB but I certainly can't now, with open sights anyway.

I have not been shooting it much for the last few years and the last few times out with open sights groups were more like 3" to 4" at 50 yards.

I have been wondering the same as you and have been planning to work some with it to see if I can tighten groups up a bit. The scope mount gave out from recoil (soft brass) so I have been shooting with open sights the few times I have taken it out. Maybe I should remake the scope mount and see what it will do.

I would be happy with 4" groups at 100 yards. Smaller is better but realistically, 4" is probably good for the gun and shooter!

Longbow

[johnson1942]

the other day i took my newly put together .45 roundball out on the deck. no wind at all that day. i use poster board for a target and i make a cross on it with masking tape. it is 100 yards from the deck railing. i had sighted in the gun 2 or 3 days earlier and wanted to see if changed at all. 60 grains of 2f behind a .445 round ball and linen patch cut off at the muzzle with a razor. i use a primitive ghost ring back sight from track of the wolf. first shot cut dead center where the masking tape come together for the x or cross. i may be anal or neurotic but thats what they have to do or they are gone.remember the first shot fired by old morg at the battle of new orleans was 216 yards at a young british officers head. he had got on old andy jacksons nerves and he gave the order, snuff his candle. morg stepped forward threw back the brim of his big flop hat and put a ball through the mans head. if they could do that so can we if we do what they did and what they did it with. around 3400 brits went down that day. none got closer than 98 yards to the american lines. most were head shots. the round ball is a very accurate bullet. my eyes are 70 years old, that why track of the wolf came out with a primative looking sight that is really a ghost ring sight. for older shooters like me. remember if they could do so can we.

[10 ga]

Be honest, what would be a good PRB group at 100 Yds, off bench?

Fly:roll:

100 yd, off bags and bench, peep sight on my 1/66 twist 50 cal. set trigger hammer gun. 2" group 3 shots, with more shots the group might go to 3". Can break clay pigeon 10/10 off the bags.

I'll give dittos " " to NSB also. I have several Savage MLIIs that will do right at moa all day out to 200 yd+ and couple custom .45 cal MLs that shoot better than moa. No smoke, no sulfur smell, no nostalgia and no cleanup.

10 ga

[OverMax]

I shoot a 45 & 54 T/C Hawkens OP. Cast my own 445 & 535 Rd-Ball out of Lyman molds. Both rifles have Rd Ball barrels and open sights. (scopes are illegal here on B/P weapons) And I've been making my own B/Powder for awhile now. So I figure if I can hit a 6" circle time after time out at 100 yards with my hunting charges. "Hey I'm satisfied." But it is helpful knowing the area I hunt doesn't require me to make long distance shots I'm not comfortable with. At my age Sir. I do know my limits and ability's and seldom stray from either.

O/M

[Lonegun1894]

On a good day, I get the occasional 2-2.5" group with mine, usually can keep them in 3-4", and occasionally, on the bad days, I open up to 5-6", but the VAST majority of the time, I expect and get 3-4" at 100yds with either my .50 CVA or my .54 GPR.

[rhbrink]

I'm about like Lonegun1894, shooting a flintlock with fixed open sights I can get a 2" group now and then but most of the time it's more like 3 to 4 inch groups and I'm happy with that. And that's when the wind is readable which is problem at my home range, when the winds decide to get rough then 5 to 6 inch is expected to like I wonder where that one went. OH it must have doubled one of those other holes!

RB

[mainiac]

I'm about like Lonegun1894, shooting a flintlock with fixed open sights I can get a 2" group now and then but most of the time it's more like 3 to 4 inch groups and I'm happy with that. And that's when the wind is readable which is problem at my home range, when the winds decide to get rough then 5 to 6 inch is expected to like I wonder where that one went. OH it must have doubled one of those other holes!

RB

This is my thoughts,almost exactly! My guns can do under 1.5 inches@ 50 yards consistant,but 100 is different story,the wind on a particular day,decides how small the groups will be.100 is a long way away,for a roundball to excape being pushed by the wind......... 3 inches,im happy on an average day.

[Fly]

You guy's shooting the peep sights,what front sight are you using.I have a lyman block ajustable peep
sight on back, with the stock front sight of this GPR.

Fly

[fouronesix]

Fly,
For the ML and most of my levers that have a rear peep, I use a plain, flat top blade front. For best sight picture and sight alignment, I think barrel length and use (hunting, target, etc.) determines best blade width to some degree. The thinnest are about .075 and the thickest about .120.

[NSB]

Let me add a caveat to my answer: I was shooting five shot groups, not three shot groups. Again I'll state that even at matches I've never seen a sub two inch group. Never. On a good day I could shoot an occasional 2-2.5" three shot group but add the extra two shots and it just doesn't happen.

[Shooter]

You guy's shooting the peep sights,what front sight are you using.I have a lyman block ajustable peep
sight on back, with the stock front sight of this GPR. Fly

Lyman 17, you have to use the 17EU for the GPR, as it has a metric dovetail.
I use Lee Shaver inserts.

[Fly]

Let me add a caveat to my answer: I was shooting five shot groups, not three shot groups. Again I'll state that even at matches I've never seen a sub two inch group. Never. On a good day I could shoot an occasional 2-2.5" three shot group but add the extra two shots and it just doesn't happen.

I can truly see that.I'm working with this GPR right now at 100 yds.I have had for some time, but shoot it at 50 yd's.It a tack driver
at 50.When you go out 100 yds things really open up as you know.But I want to keep working with it to see what is realistic.

Fly

[rhbrink]

I don't know what kind of conditions that you are shooting in but 1 mph of wind is good for about 1" of ball movement at 100 yards this would be with a .45 or 50 cal. So a 10 mph will move your shot about 10 inches and a 10 pmh wind is not much wind. If nothing else make up some wind flags when you shoot at 100 yards and pay extreme attention to them. I like to have one right out from my bench within 5 yards another out about 35 yards and one more at about 75. The closer ones will be the ones to really watch if you get a gust just as the ball leaves your rifle the steering effect is greatly magnified by the time it gets to the 100 yd line.

RB

[fouronesix]

Fly,
Probably two paths to remove shooter/sighting error from the equation. A scope or a fully dedicated tang peep with a globe front combination. The best front globe insert I've found for precise alignment on a bull target is a fairly thin (ghost ring) type insert that leaves a halo around the bull at whatever distance is being shot.

[Fly]

Fly,
Probably two paths to remove shooter/sighting error from the equation. A scope or a fully dedicated tang peep with a globe front combination. The best front globe insert I've found for precise alignment on a bull target is a fairly thin (ghost ring) type insert that leaves a halo around the bull at whatever distance is being shot.
Thanks man I just ordered that front globe sight from TOW that was recommend.
Fly

[VladViscious]

I went out last weekend with my old Dixie, Kentucky in 50 Cal, shooting a 490 RB with .010 lubed patch (TC 1000 lube) it is a percussion rifle. Air temp was ~20 F. I was able to shoot a 2 inch group at 85 yards ( Far as we could shoot on this range) This was done with a load of 70 gr of FFF, this is the most accurate load in my 1/66 35 " barrel with a dovetail rear, and brass blade front. I have been shooting this rifle for 20 years now, and used to use it for Silhouette matches at a max of 100 yards and had excellent results. Off hand I can usually keep PRB in a 3 inch circle at 100 yards. As others are saying, My eyes are getting worse each year, but with my glasses I can still see well enough. The Trick I think is find the LOAD for your Rifle, and then shoot it a lot. Wind makes a big difference but, if you know what your rifle will do you can adjust. Daniel Boone was supposed to carry a fixed charge and ball combo in his rifle, and didn't change it to suit the shooting he just shot the rifle to suit the need ( Barking a squirrel, drilling a Brit officer in the melon) there is an old adage I think helps with this and it is : Do not fear the man with many rifles, fear the man with one.

TANSTAAFL!

[Hanshi]

Honestly, I have to say that even from a bench a five shot group of around 4" is the best I can do. This is with the primitive open sights on longrifles, of course, and my 66 year old eyes form the basis of the problem. I'll sometimes get two or three shots quite close but never all five.

[NSB]

I don't know what kind of conditions that you are shooting in but 1 mph of wind is good for about 1" of ball movement at 100 yards this would be with a .45 or 50 cal. So a 10 mph will move your shot about 10 inches and a 10 pmh wind is not much wind. If nothing else make up some wind flags when you shoot at 100 yards and pay extreme attention to them. I like to have one right out from my bench within 5 yards another out about 35 yards and one more at about 75. The closer ones will be the ones to really watch if you get a gust just as the ball leaves your rifle the steering effect is greatly magnified by the time it gets to the 100 yd line.

RB

This answer is "spot on". I don't understand why everyone else gets to shoot in a vacuum and I have to mess around with the wind. I use windsocks and they help but no matter how many I put out there the wind keeps blowing! I shot a lot of different competition disciplines over the years and did very well shooting. Wind plays a HUGE factor in shooting groups and I've rarely ever shot without some wind blowing. Doesn't take much to move a big slow bullet an inch at a hundred yards.

[Lonegun1894]

AT least for me, I don't get to shoot in a vacuum, but am lucky enough to have access to two ranges, one has a little brush and trees to serve as a wind block on one side and nothing for at least half a mile on the other, while the other has thick trees on both sides of the firing line. In both cases you get some wind, but the one that is lined on both sides usually only has wind either in your face or at your back, so it makes it easier windage wise. I try to use the range that has less cover though more often because, while it may be more frustrating, it makes for better hunting practice--and those groups are at the range with less cover. I use the one with more windbreak for load development, and then practice at the one with more wind.

[izzyjoe]

don't know about 100yd, but my cva hawken will do 1.5'' too 2'' if i do my part. i've tried it at a 100yds. and the drop was larger than my target. so i used a large cardboard backer, and it was close to 6" group. i'm a hunter/ target shooter so i'll accept that. 75yds is my limit.

[Hanshi]

The range where I shoot has tall barricades on both sides that sit up on ridges. Wind there is usually in your face with only a sometimes crosswind. It does help.

[Fly]

Yea those side wall,s mean alot.I shot a range in Tuson Az that had those.They really do help.

Fly

[HARRYMPOPE]

3" groups offhand at 100 with PRB and open sights will win any match any time.I bet your benched groups are under 1"

[HPT]

I looked up the World Records for muzzleloaders from the MLAIC website. There is a category called "Maximillian" which is for roundball shot prone at 100 meters. The World Record score was set in 1988 by some guy from Germany, then tied in 1998. The score was 98 out of a possible 100. Their 10 ring is 2" and they fire 13 shots of which the 10 best are scored. So 9 out of 13 shots inside 2" would equal the world record that has stood for 25 years. I assume if all 13 shots were counted the group would be larger - I'm not sure how much, but I assume anyone keeping all their shots in 3" would equal or beat the world record.

[longbow]

Well, that makes me feel better! I was thinking the gun or the shooter (or maybe both) wasn't up to snuff but if I can get around 4" then I don't feel too bad. That is for 5 shot groups. Like most I can often get three pretty close but never all five.

Longbow

[Boerrancher]

I have shot a lot of MLs that you could honestly drive thumb tacks with at 50 yards with a PRB, but when you double that distance things go North really quick. I have 2 great shooting Hawken rifles, and I can cut ball holes with both of them at 50 yards, but on a good day if I get a 4 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards I feel really blessed, and an average is 5 or 6 inches, and we won't talk about how bad they can get. I try not to shoot often at more than 50 yards with a ML if I am doing serious load work or shooting. I do practice some at 100 yards just to make sure I am still Minute of Deer, and that is mostly shooting at gallon milk jugs and steel plates. With my trade gun it is all Minute of Deer with a PRB. I don't shoot it on paper often at all. I shoot steel targets with it, and keep them inside of 50 yards. I have shot it out to 80 yards at a 10x10 gong and have done well enough that I would shoot a deer with it at that range but that is pushing it.

Best wishes,

Joe

[NSB]

I looked up the World Records for muzzleloaders from the MLAIC website. There is a category called "Maximillian" which is for roundball shot prone at 100 meters. The World Record score was set in 1988 by some guy from Germany, then tied in 1998. The score was 98 out of a possible 100. Their 10 ring is 2" and they fire 13 shots of which the 10 best are scored. So 9 out of 13 shots inside 2" would equal the world record that has stood for 25 years. I assume if all 13 shots were counted the group would be larger - I'm not sure how much, but I assume anyone keeping all their shots in 3" would equal or beat the world record.

Looks like the world's best aren't competition shooters. Your info pretty much agrees with my observations here in the real world. I knew a guy at a local sporting clays range who was sitting in the club house boasting to a crowd of people that he could shoot sub 2" groups all day long with his muzzle loader. I suggested that his statements might not be accurate. He got pretty indignant and told me he could do it all the time. I offered to bet him on it and I'd put up a thousand dollars if he'd put up a hundred. He didn't take the bet. Go figure.

[KCSO]

My best off hand was 2" c-c and off the bench the smae rifle shot 1 1/4". this was from a custom Hawken 54 with optimum load and a good shooter with GOOD eyes.

[Fly]

Was that patched round ball????

Fly

[Coffeecup]

If you want to compare group sizes, the numbers of shots need to be consistent. Statistically, a 2" 3-shot group is not equal to a 2" 5-shot group, and a 2" 5-shot group is not the same thing as a 2" 10-shot group. I can think of times when I'd have 3 shots under 2" offhand, but by the time the fifth shot was fired, the group had opened up (embarrassingly so, in some cases).

The manner in which the group is shot needs to be consistent as well. Comparing one position to another, or to shooting off a bench, or shooting while alone at the range vs shooting in a match, gives the wrong picture. Back around 2000, on a number of occasions my practice scores were close to or even tied Mr. Henley's world record in the Miquilet; that in no way means I could do the same thing in a match!

For most shooters (guys who aren't shooting off the bench every trip to the range, or even all the time), shooting a factory sporting rifle (TC Hawken or similar) with open sights, and using typical loading techniques, I kinda figure a day-in, day-out 4" 5-shot group is pretty good if they aren't dealing with wind problems.

From my .54, I expect about 3" groups for 5 shots off X-sticks , and about that from a standing rest. And again, that is if not dealing with wind problems (i.e., if I have time to sit there and wait for the wind to die down for each shot). I don't like to shoot that rifle off the bench, so I don't have enough groups to really get a solid idea of what to expect. I shot a match last year where the 100 yard targets were clay pigeons, and went 5 for 5 off X-sticks. Unfortunately, that was the first absolutely dead-calm day I have EVER seen at a match here.

[rhbrink]

Well maybe we should just have a little 100 yard, 5 shot, postal match? Round ball and patch, side lock or underhammer, open sights, target of your choice. Anybody interested?

RB

[10 ga]

Well maybe we should just have a little 100 yard, 5 shot, postal match? Round ball and patch, side lock or underhammer, open sights, target of your choice. Anybody interested?

RB

10 ga interested. PM if it happens. I really have no idea what a postal shoot is but sure somebody will clue me in.
10 ga

[Rattus58]

Be honest, what would be a good PRB group at 100 Yds, off bench?

Fly:roll:

What would be an excellent group would be 2-3 inches center to center. What would be normal for most shooters is going to be 3-6 inches. However, if you scoped your muzzleloader and took pains to develop your loads, there is no reason to not have a 1-2" group center to center. Eyes are probably the biggest culprit and shooting single trigger muzzleloaders. Give a man a set trigger, a good sight radius... burgers and beer!

[ken s]

40 inch .45 cal oct. barrel . I built myself. RB .445, washed pillow ticking patch, patch material chewed to wet, ball centered on material and short started, then cut level with the muzzel. This centers the patch every time. light finger pressure on the 60 grain FFg charge, same pressure every time. always under 3 inches dead center at 100, some so small they're scary.
same pressure, and light to not compress the powder. wet patch cleans the bore every shot, and cutting level means the patch is always centered. Ken

[johnson1942]

ken s, even though we live miles from each other i shoot my roundball the very same way you do. if i didnt i wouldnt enjoy the consistant good groups i get. i dont remember who taught me this way way back when but someone did, poss. the ned roberts book. ive taught it to others and the results are the same, hitting what you aim at. the present barrel im shooting is 34 inches long, 7 lands and grooves. the rifling style is a copy of a very old muzzle loader i saw in the cody gun museum. very wide lands and very narrow grooves that are rather deep. 1/60 twist, it shoots very consistant. i also use 60 grains of 2f black, and i gently set the ball on the powder. thanks for the post