Need help with brass

[USMC87]

I bought some LC match brass from another member the other day and was sizing it today and 95 of the 340 cases had the neck pull right off the shoulder. Where it come apart it is not a shiny brass color but a burgandy looking color, What causes this to happen? These are all dated 61, Should I shoot the rest or trash them? I apprecite all the help you guys give. I sized alot of commercials with no problem at all.

[Love Life]

Were they annealed improperly and a rough expander button grabbed them and ripped them off?

[USMC87]

No they would break as soon as you start to return the press handle and stick in the top of the die. I took the decap rod out and sized the cases that way because so many were breaking. The decap rod was not involved.

[376Steyr]

Wow. I've never had that happen with more recent LC brass. What I think is happening is the wall thickness of the necks of LC brass is thicker than commercial brass. When you run LC brasss into your sizer die, the inside neck diameter is forced smaller than for commercial brass. When you pull the expander ball back through the neck, the neck is being worked more than a commercial case would be. That's what I know for certain. As for pulling the necks off I would guess rough expander ball+no lube inside the neck+interior corrosion/improper annealing/bad brass lot+ excessive brass working = pulled off neck. Pictures?

[Love Life]

So were the cases breaking with the decap rod in, and that lead you to take the decap/expander out? Did you stop breaking brass AFTER you removed the decap/axpander?

Your response left me a little confused.

[USMC87]

No sir, I got tired of taking the rod out so I left it out. They still stuck in the top of the die, All brass was tumbled before and lubed good as were the inside of the necks, I'll take some pics and be right back.

[Love Life]

Dang. I don't know what to say if the decap/expander was removed, and the cases still got stuck and the necks ripped off. That means the outside of the necks had to be sticking to the inside of the die. That shouldn't be happening.

[dudits]

sounds as if they need to be annealed.

you got plenty of lube on them?

[USMC87]

Here's 2 pics . And do you think I should trash the others?6345363454

[Love Life]

Hmmmm. Is there any corrosion inside of the cases? What did the cases look like when you got them? Were they once fired?

[USMC87]

Most were already deprimed,cases are black inside, They looked good when I got them.

[Love Life]

Well heck. I am at a loss here. Hopefully somebody will happen along soon to solve this mystery.

[376Steyr]

Hmmm, those are '06 cases, I've only worked with LC 7.62 cases. I don't know if my neck thickness theory still holds up. Are the cases dead soft compared to commercial brass? If so, I suspect somebody in the last 52 years botched an annealing job. If that is what happened the case heads might be dangerously soft. If it was my brass, I'd chuck it into the scrap bucket.

[Bent Ramrod]

You might take a case and pinch the neck with a pair of pliers, If it squeezes, an anneal might save the rest of them. If it breaks, it is likely that somebody shot some old mercuric primers in them. In that case, they are hopeless.

Back in the bad old days when nobody was making brass for obsolete calibers, I lucked onto a bagful of .32-40 "High Velocity" cases. I thought I was set for all time, having heard that these cases were a little stouter than standard and so would hold up well for an infinite number of reloadings. I broke a couple in my sizing die but most loaded up all right. I chalked the breaking to season cracking or whatever, and planned on annealing them after the first firing. When I fired the things, they broke one after another and the forward parts stuck in the chamber. After a couple difficult extractions of these broken shells, I hit the books and, from the descriptions there, concluded that the shells were contaminated with mercury.

Demilling the cartridges was easy, at least. I put on leather gardening gloves and could snap the shells like carrots with my hands. I dumped the powder, melted out the lead from the front piece and punched out the primer from the rear piece.

Some bargain!:roll:

[USMC87]

I took pliers and bent the necks on 2 cases, They seemed soft. I'll try to do the snap test and see what happens.

[dbosman]

Were corrosive primers still in use in military ammo 1961?

[Wayne Smith]

No. I'm betting somebody botched an annealing job.

[JRLesan]

Inspect the actual 'torn' edge of the brass and advise whether it is brass colored or the brown you describe. This inspection should be with magnification-the higher the better. A small rotten spot in the brass will show up readily. Do this with both already torn cases and some that are still intact.

[Recluse]

If so, I suspect somebody in the last 52 years botched an annealing job. If that is what happened the case heads might be dangerously soft. If it was my brass, I'd chuck it into the scrap bucket.


No. I'm betting somebody botched an annealing job.

I saw this once before, and you're both right about the botched annealing job.

But it wasn't intentional.

The brass had been in a house fire and sold as part of the estate sale recovery. Theses cases I saw were also black on the inside and there was no amount of anything anyone could do to save that brass (bunch of .308).

Looking at the pics and how the necks literally tore off and the black insides, my guess is that this brass (LC 61) found itself in a fire and has been passed along via brass auctions and trades and swaps and the such until you now have it, and prior to that, nobody ever really tried to size and work the brass.

Or, maybe they did and had the same results, couldn't figure it out and then sold/traded/swapped/gave away the brass to someone else where the cycle was repeated.

I'd take it to the scrapper and sell it. No way whatsoever would I trust any of my firearms to it.

:coffee:

[leeggen]

Check all the other brass real close at the neck and see if they are cracked? Almost looks like someone necked them way to low and when fired it weaken the neck. Now you own them and its not their problem anymore. Not to say anything bad about the other member bbut sometime stuff happens. Just really check the others.

[geargnasher]

File a small flat on each side of a case head, and do the same to a known-good commercial case, and crush the two together against each other in a vise. Observe which case crushes more. If the commercial case mashes the military case flat before caving in itself, then you have your answer.

Gear

[Love Life]

Hmmmm. I wonder how far down the annealing job (if that is what it is) went.

[CATS]

I would scrap it or send it to one of the guys who swage. If I had sold that to you I would refund your payment. When in doubt...throw it out.

[Sky_DiveR]

Is that 5.56 or 7.62 brass?

[USMC87]

It's 7.62 brass.

[Sky_DiveR]

Interesting.... So over annealing can make the neck too soft and separate?

[220swiftfn]

Interesting.... So over annealing can make the neck too soft and separate?

Over annealing burns out the zinc, leaving the neck plain old copper......


Dan

[Love Life]

If you plan to scrap the brass I would like to take a couple off your hands to experiment with some things. PM me if interested.

[MattOrgan]

My vote is that this brass is too soft.

I recently experienced this with some Frontier .308 Winchester cases. When sizing them they felt "crunchy" and the neck was left in the die. After getting the expand decap rod out of the die a light tap delivered the neck into my hand. The neck piece was very soft. I had purchased a box or two of Frontier headstamped ammunition in the late 70s right after they stopped using military brass to load their ammunition. I fired the ammunition with no issues and bagged the brass. I discovered the once fired brass a couple of weeks ago and thought I'd reload it.

I'm guessing that the neck /shoulder anneal was incorrect from the beginning (too soft). It didn't cause a problem upon initial firing but was too soft to prevent the neck from being pulled off during sizing. Since I know the history of this brass ( no fire, no attempt to anneal, no mercuric primers).

My experience with corrosive primers leads me to believe they do not affect brass, mercuric primers can make the cases so brittle you can break them with finger pressure, especially smokeless powder rounds like some .30/40 Krag cases from my grand fathers estate. Old black powder cases don't seem to get so brittle from mercuric primers, maybe because the mercury is affected by black powder?

[40Super]

My vote is for the house fire(or garage ect..) it doesn't take much to clean up the outside to look "normal" and in a fire that heat does bad things to metals. I saw a set of Craftsman wrenches that were in a shed fire, the guy cleaned them up, and although dull finish now, looked good. Trying to turn a bolt and he could bend the wrenches in a U.

[USMC87]

The remaining brass that did'nt break off, If I can bend the necks without breaking could they be used?

[Recluse]

The remaining brass that did'nt break off, If I can bend the necks without breaking could they be used?

Maybe, maybe not. So far, you've had a staggering failure rate, percentage-wise. That's enough right there to spook me big time.

My personal philosophy on such matters regarding reloading components is that components are cheap, guns are expensive, and repairing damage to an area of my body because of cheap defective (or even suspected) defective components because they helped blow up an expensive gun is the most costly and painful of all.

I'd take and sell it to the salvage metal guy. HE don't care if it's soft, hard, brittle or whatever--he just cares that it's brass and he can get a price for it when he sells it to a foundry.

:coffee:

[jonas302]

Without figuring out the problem not a chance I would fire them

[Defcon-One]

I would crush them all and Scrap them!

My theory (I have seen it before) is that somebody cleaned it with Brasso which contains Ammonia. You get a very nice looking case but over time it gets more and more brittle. The Ammonia eats away at the Zinc/Copper in the brass and changes its properties.

One guy here on castboolits was advertising "Cleaned, once fired brass For Sale" and he said right in his ad that it was cleaned in Brasso! Great for candlesticks, dangerous for rifle or pistol brass. (I PM'd him a warning!)

Can't prove it, but that is my theory! I buy once-fired brass, but only if it is "as fired" not cleaned or polished. That is why.

[phil3333]

I wouldn't fire them not worth the risk

[AricTheRed]

The first thing I thought when I saw this post was a story I heard from a retired Gysgt buddy of mine...

A naked Marine is left in a room with room with three 16lb bowling balls.

Three hours later the old gunny returns to find...

One naked Marine, two bowling balls, and one of them broken.

All that Marine had to say was "I dunno Gunny they were like that when I got here!"

[DonMountain]

I bet these 7.62 brass were fired in a machine gun with a very loose chamber, allowing the case necks to expand more than normal. And then when sizing them back down in a die, the residual stresses in the oversize necks held them fast to the inside of the sizing die, allowing it to tear off the neck portion right at the crease that had been pushed back excessively, creating a fault in the brass at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Or maybe even the neck portion was pushed down into the case kinking it at the shoulder/neck junction slightly, weakening it and tearing it off when pulling it back out.

[DRNurse1]

This is from a pistol shooter of straight cases: Man you folks have seen a lot and THANK YOU for sharing it here. I really appreciate the ammonia clue. I collect a lot of range brass and have been passing along the necked stuff to rifle shooters I know. I will warn them to check this stough carefully. Any way to detect machine gun (or fully automatic) fired rounds before they fail??

Thanks again for the education.

[W.R.Buchanan]

With nearly 1/3 blowing up I would suggest the scrap barrel. Since you don't know the exact history of these cases you will never know for sure what happened to them. I read all the responses to this thread, and most seem plausable. However you will never know for sure what ruined these cases.

If they are depsoited in the scrap barrel, and since there is no way of knowing for sure,,, then you can move on and leave this issue behind.

It is doubtful that you will ever run into this problem again, and if you do, then you'll know to scrap that batch too.

Sometimes knowing why something is bad is not important, just knowing that it IS bad is enough.

We spend our whole lives searching for the truth. Many never find it! But they still lived, so all was not lost.

Randy

[DRNurse1]

Another question for the experienced folks here: I use Lemishine and Dawn to clean my brass. No apparent ammonia issue and seems to work rapidly and effectively. I cleaned about 5000 cases of various calibers this weekend and encountered a new observation.

My concern is finding some of the nickel cases partially stripped of the nickel (maybe 5/500 = 1% is no big deal if it is not damaging the other cases) and some of the brass cases ending up with a reddish cast (again, very few cases /1000 but concerned about effect on all the cases).

Background: outdoor range pickup, rinsed and dried then stored until sufficient quantity to clean as above. I soaked in the Lemishne/ Dawn detergent mix for about 15 minutes with some agitation, then rinsed (diluted cleaning solution seven times, an old chemistry thing).

Any thoughts, I will try to attach photos later.

70440

Left=Red Brass not cleaned

Center= Cleaned

Right= Nickel stripped cases (2 in front) and brass case discolored (rear)

[uscra112]

The reddish cast is copper. The Lemishine stripped some of the zinc out of the brass alloy. I've ruined a batch in my wet tumbler by forgetting it for 24 hours. Now I set a timer and only run for 1 hour, or I leave out the Lemishine.