What material for sizing die's? What else?

[garandsrus]

Hi,

I am going to be the proud owner of a 12" Atlas lathe as soon as I pick it up...:drinks: I have a wood lathe but have never used a metal lathe, although I have watched other folks do a little, but not much. My initial use will be to make some boolit sizing dies. I have a Star, Lyman 4500, and RCBS lube press.

I am going to place an order with Enco for some round stock and adjustable reamers. Here is what I am considering:

890-8857 $14.95
Line 1. SET 1/4-3/8 HIGH SPEED ADJUSTABLE HAND REAMER

890-8858 $13.95
Line 2. SET 3/8-15/32 HIGH SPEED ADJUSTABLE HAND REAMER

619-3695 $22.76 ea $45.52 (qty of 2)
Line 3. 7/8" X 36" 4140 STL ANNEALED HOT ROLL ROUND

240-2244 $7.73 ea $15.46 (qty of 2 - yes I know they are 6')
Line 4. 1/2 DIA 1018 STEEL ROUNDS 6' LONG

505-3716 $18.47
3/8" 6' FC ROUND BRASS ROD 360 (for making misc non-sizing die punches)

One other project I will probably do early in my "career" is opening up the cylinders on a Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag to match the barrel. I would not do this on the lathe, but would use the adjustable reamer. To measure the progress, I would push a lead slug through and measure it.

I am going to get some help from a couple friends that are lathe operators and I hope to take a Lathe class at a local community college. I also bought the book "How to Run a Lathe" from the 50's.

Any concerns with the above? Any other suggestions? I would like to get a taper reamer also, but one that would attach to the lathe.

Thanks!
John

[mike in co]

i'm in line too...lets hear from some of the more experienced cast boolit lathe operators.
i just got a 13/40....stilll installing

you need to spend some time adjusting the lathe, level,square, tail stock to head stock align.


bore or ream ?? inquiring minds want to know.....

[floodgate]

garandsrus:

I have those import adjustable reamer sets, and have found them very useful. The only caution (aside from keeping them clean and oiled) is - when you adjust them - turn each adjuster nut no more than one turn at a time, alternately, If you back off too far on one nut alone, the individual blades will all fall out and you'll have an intriguing puzzle to "decode". (Don't ask me how I know this....). I'll leave the metal choices to Buckshot or other machinists on the Board.

If you don't have it already, get the reprint of the 1942 South Bend book "How to Run a Lathe" from Lindsay Books; it was written for new machinists recruited for WW II production, and, though it uses South Bend lathes as a basis, 99% of the info will apply to your Atlas 12". A gunsmith buddy did all his work in a lathe like yours for over 20 years. After half a lifetime, I'm still a raw novice at machining, but lately have been making a lot of old loading tool parts to restore them to use. So, you're on a good track, and will soon be overwhelmed with special jobs (ask Buckshot about that...)

floodgate

EDIT: OOOPPPS! I see you've already got the book, so you're off to a good start

[leftiye]

Boring those little holes is a headache. Drill, then ream, then lap. Don' take more than a few (3-5 thou) in the smaller calibers , and maybe as much as ten in .45 and bigger with your reamer.

I wouldn't be shy about using mild steel for sizing dies for lead boolits, even linotype, etc. Three reasons, the first is that you can always make another if it ever wearsout. Second is that most of the wear will be in the tapered area that actually does the sizing. This wear will lengthen this cone, and the cylindrical part will just be polished, so if there's enough cylindrical length the die can wear for a long time. Third, mild steel is cheap, and you can mess up, chuck the "scrap," and try again without the necessity of crying so much. When you've got it figgered out, then you can try it with tool steels, they obviously do make better dies.

I'd examine the alternative of using chucking reamers instead of the adjustable ones. I can't get the adjustable ones to cut well (might have been trying to cut hardened steel). Also, try barrel laps and diamond paste to polish your bore to size (after using a .001" under reamer).

[garandsrus]

Thanks for the replies so far...

What type of hone do I need? The flexible one?

Thanks again,
John

[454PB]

I make all my own sizing dies, and I use mild steel. I have some that have sized many thousands of boolits, and have not changed diameter at all. Using a hardened steel, or hardening after it's made is more work than replacing it if it DID wear to a larger diameter.

I use nothing but a good selection of drill bits and a split rod with emory and crocus cloth to achieve the final ID.

I make the die center punch first to use as a pin gauge. For instance, if I want a .432" die, I make a .430" center punch first, and polish until it will slip into the die. At that point, I remove the die from the lathe and push a lubed lead slug through it for final fit. It will usually be .001" larger than the center punch. I've found that measuring this way is more accurate, since some alloys will actually spring back after sizing.

[Buckshot]

............You don't need anything like 4140. Get some W-1 as it's the least expensive of the "Tool Steels". It machines very well to a nice finish. It's a high carbon steel if you think it needs to be hardened. It really doesn't though. Any so called 'mild steel' or low carbon (1018 etc) machines very poorly compared to W-1.

I also would NOT recommend adjustable reamers. You don't need them. Get a Circle C solid carbide boring bar that takes inserts. Enco puts them on sale every now and then for about $110 and they come with 5-10 inserts. Sizes they sell are 3/16"x4", 1/4"x4", 3/8"x6" and 1/2"x6". With a boring bar, a light depth of cut (DOC) and a fine feed (ie: slow) you'll get a finish as nice as with a reamer.

I'd also suggest you pick up a minus set of .251 to .500" pin gages. Additionally if you can swing it, a set of number, letter, and fractional drill bits. Get as good as you can afford.

It will be very important what you have to hold the stock with. Ideally you will want to do everything removing the work only once. Especially true if all you have is a 3 jaw chuck. If it's a 3 jaw I suggest this:

1) Stick the material out enough beyond the jaws to make one complete die body.

2) Turn the OD of the die, also forming the 'O' ring groove and the bevel at the base.

3) With a scribe or marker, mark a line down the die body to match the #1 jaw of the chuck.

4) Part the die body off.

5) Re-insert the die body in the chuck matching the witness mark on the die with the #1 jaw.

6) Center drill, then drill a pilot hole. Use cutting oil and feed the drill so it cuts smoothly, pecking as often as the chips just begin to quit flowing smoothly from the flutes. Parabolics are ideal for this as their wide flutes allow you to drill the entire 1.5" you need.

7) Bring the hole as close to size as possible with a drill bit saving at least 0.010" if possible. More won't hurt.

8) Remove the die body from the chuck and then drill the lube holes across the body. The top one should be about 3/8" below the top of the die.

9) Put the die body back in the chuck lining up the witness mark with the chuck jaw.

10) By hand run the last drill bit back into the die to remove the pigtails sticking up in the bore from cross drilling the lube holes.

11) Set your boring bar up. With the chuck spinning bring the boring bar up and 'Just' into the bore. Retract the crossfeed until the insert is just touching the bore wall, then zero out the crossfeed dial. Run at about 600 rpms and select the slowest feed speed and engage. Let the tool run the length of the die body. Stop the lathe, reverse the feed (same spindle rotation) and let the bar run back out of the die body.

12) Use your pin gages to determine what you have. One will slip in, the next larger will not. Retract your crossfeed 0.005" and feed in. Stop the lathe and back the tool out. Check with the pin gages.

13) Feed the tool back in, reverse your feed as you did in #11 above. Once it runs out, check again with the pin gages to see if it changed.

NOTE* By doing #13 above you have established if there will be what is called a "Spring Cut" on the cut coming back out. This will be usefull and really only needs to be done once, assuming you use the same boring bar and a similar DOC. You'll know if you can make a spring cut once you are only a few thou off your desired ID.

14) Leave yourself a good thousandth or a thou and a half to hone out.

Ideally you could cut the leade taper with a taper pin reamer, but if not then grind yourself a tool to do it and set your compound for about 1-1/2 degree. You'll know what size size dies you'll be doing most and the 1/4" boring bar will probably do it all pretty well. The carbide bar will be the most rigid setup you'll be able to come up with.

.................Buckshot

[floodgate]

Buckshot:

I know what you mean, but for some of the others, you may need to explain "spring cut".

Doug

[mike in co]

Buckshot:

I know what you mean, but for some of the others, you may need to explain "spring cut".

Doug


you gotta do it before winter or it will end up being a spring cut ??

...sorry .....guess we better let buckshot try....

( yes i know what it is)

[garandsrus]

Buckshot,

Thank you for all the information...

I can't find this at Enco:

Get a Circle C solid carbide boring bar that takes inserts. Enco puts them on sale every now and then for about $110 and they come with 5-10 inserts. Sizes they sell are 3/16"x4", 1/4"x4", 3/8"x6" and 1/2"x6". With a boring bar, a light depth of cut (DOC) and a fine feed (ie: slow) you'll get a finish as nice as with a reamer.

Any idea on what the part number would be?

Any suggestions on a quick change setup?

Thanks again,
John

[Buckshot]

Buckshot:

I know what you mean, but for some of the others, you may need to explain "spring cut".

Doug

................A 'spring cut' is what happens because it's all rubber. It's just a matter of deflection of .................. everything. The headstock, the work, the tool and toolpost and also the compound sitting on the crossfeed sitting on the carriage sitting on the lathe bed and the lathe bed itself.

The bigger and more rigid the machine is, the less the 'spring' or deflection will be, but depending upon the setup it can still be an issue to consider. Small tool stickout, smaller DOC's & feeds, and locking down the gibs on the compound and cross slide will help mitigate it.

................Buckshot

[Jim]

Get hold of Redneck Dan here on the forum. He's a top notch machinist and I feel sure he could add some worthwhile input.

[floodgate]

To clarify "spring cut" at MY novice machinist level, note that when you make a lengthwise cut to the left, into the workpiece, with any tool - but especially with a boring bar with an inch or three of overhang parallel to the lathe axis - if you will then reverse the feed, WITHOUT changing the depth setting, the tool will still make a light cut as it comes back out to the right. If your lathe, tool and settings are not REAL solid, you can sometimes go back in and out again and STILL get a fine cut, one or both ways. If your tool is ground and set so as to cut cleanly and smoothly in both directions (and especially on the outward cut(s)), you can end up, as Rick says, with a nice, smooth inner surface, and a straight-sided hole that will check out good with a pin gauge from either end.

A tip: If you don't have a set of pin gauges, you can use the butt end of a good twist drill; BUT, note that the back end of most drills is 0.001" - 0.002" UNDER the drilling size - to provide free shank clearance on deep holes. Also, you need to stone off any burrs from slippage in the chuck, or raised by the ID stampings on the drill shank. Good for a quick check, anyhow.

floodgate

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

Thank you for all the information...

I can't find this at Enco:

Get a Circle C solid carbide boring bar that takes inserts. Enco puts them on sale every now and then for about $110 and they come with 5-10 inserts. Sizes they sell are 3/16"x4", 1/4"x4", 3/8"x6" and 1/2"x6". With a boring bar, a light depth of cut (DOC) and a fine feed (ie: slow) you'll get a finish as nice as with a reamer.

Any idea on what the part number would be?

Any suggestions on a quick change setup?

Thanks again,
John

.................John, they show up in their monthly sale catalog. You can view it online at www.useenco.com

Enco also has a free shipping code monthly. Go to "The Home Shop Machinist" BB and on the General forum do a search for "Enco free shipping". You'll need to sign up and become a member, which you should anyway.

For orders $50 and over, the free shipping code for August is: WBA7P

You add it to the shopping cart before checkout.

Well after all that I double checked and it wasn't Enco but MSC ( www.mscdirect.com) that had the Circle C carbide boring bars in their monthly sale flyer. As I said they were $107 from the flyer. I just checked their main catalog and simlar carbide boring bars and inserts are like $250, egads!! Both places currently have adjustable reamers and reamer sets on sale, if you end up going that way.

I'd get on both mailing lists for the monthly sales flyer. The boring bars and inserts were listed as "Promotional" so I suppose they may have been a special deal, however it is sure possible they'll have them again.

For a quick change setup, I'd get the BXA or 200 series. These are the same size it's just that some call it BXA and some number them and 200 is the same size. My lathe has an 11" swing and I have a BXA/200 size holder. It's just a bit shy of being too large. Your lathe having a 12" swing will have it's spindle centerline 1/2" higher so that size would be great. As you can see in the photo below, the QC tool block is setting low on the holder. The tool is a full sized 5/8" bit which is max for the BXA size. The smaller size, AXA holder is a 1/2" tool.

http://www.fototime.com/5D8266D7DD3697C/standard.jpg

As long as we're spending your money, if you get into this and find you enjoy it you'd really benefit by having a collet setup. I don't think a 12" Atlas has a spindle bore large enough to handle 5C collets and their closer. However you can utilize the ER or TG series of collets.

They have these collets in series from 11 I think up to 50 for the ER series. The larger the number, the bigger the OD of the work can bee. I think the ER50's go up to 1-3/8". Your spindle nose should have a morse taper so you can get a ER collet chuck with a matching MT. Very few chucks, and even fewer chucks we could afford can match the repeatable accuracy of collets. Most will guarentee less then .0005" TIR. Even the less expensive sets.

I have a set of ER40's along with a collet closer and set of 5C's. However the 5C's are limited to a few thousandths latitude either side of their listed size. The beauty of the ER's is that they will collapse about .040" and hold full length. They will hold an infinate amount of OD's from the smallest to the largest collet in the series. The only negative is that you cannot pass material through their center, and hense through the lathe's spindle.

...................Buckshot

[garandsrus]

Buckshot,

Thanks for the reply... I will check out MSC and order the boring bar.

I found a new in wrapper set of pin gauges (.250 to .500) on eBay from a local seller so I bought them. They should come in handy.

I also signed up for a class at the local Community College on running lathes, mills, and drill presses. It is in Lab format so I am hoping that we can make our own projects. It should be fun!

I am getting a 3 and 4 way chuck next week, so I should be ready to make some chips pretty soon...

John

[floodgate]

The only problem with those pin gauge sets is peeling all that protective greased paper off them: 250 in my .251" - .500" set; 190 in the .061" - .250" set I just ordered from the MSC sale flyer. Yeccchhhh!

floodgate

[Nueces]

+1 to floodgate's lament about the grease paper - gooey chicom-yeti snot wipes.

I just remove 'em as I use 'em, most are still in place.

Mark

[Frank46]

John, try 12L14 leaded steel. Machines easily, gives you a nice finsih, polishes well
and If I'm not mistaken its used by most reloading die mfgr's. Years ago I picked up 2-3' lengths of 7/8x14 threaded rod. I use it to make shorty neck dies so I don't have to resize with a neck die. Don't worry about hardening it. The steel is way harder than the brass you will shove through it. Frank

[lathesmith]

Wow, there is some really good and useful info in this thread. After reading through it, I was inspired to try making a sizing die or two for my Star sizer on my HF 8x12 lathe and mini-mill. At first, I thought it would be too time-consuming to be worthwhile, but I have changed my mind. My first effort took around 3 hours, and I halved that on my second attempt. More importantly, I learned a few things and improved a few skills, which was the main thing, after all!
Now, all I need is to find a nice chunk of 7/8 round tool steel to work with. I used some odd stuff I had laying around, which worked fine, but that was just for practice. I am ready to make these things out of some good steel now! Keep the great tips coming guys, I can also pass along a few time-savers on making these dies if someone is interested. Keep the metal turning!
Lathesmith

[garandsrus]

Lathesmith,

I'm interested! I am still accumulating parts and pieces so I haven't made anything yet... My main interest is sizing dies for a Star.

I also enrolled in a Community College course that covers the drill press, lathe, and milling machine. We have 5 weeks of lecture and 9 or 10 weeks in the lab learning to use the machines and making stuff. The only project I know of is that we will make a V block, starting with a round piece of stock.

The next course I plan to take is basic CNC programming. I am a computer programmer so the programming aspect shouldn't present any problems, but of course I have never used a CNC machine or the language used to program it.

A person could really turn out a bunch of parts on a CNC lathe/milling machine...

John

[Buckshot]

...............Lathesmith, use W-1:

http://www.fototime.com/0BC9ECC796F51F9/standard.jpg

...............Buckshot

[lathesmith]

John, I'll try and run down a few points here that may or may not have been covered yet, my apologies for any repeats, but that's how I learn things sometimes...
1) Try and start with 7/8 stock or as close as you can get, this is the max diameter of the top of the die.
2) There are only two really critical dimensions: outside diameter and inside diameter. OD needs to be .750 +000, -.001. Take your time here, and get it right.
3) Using an existing die really speeds things up, as you can take measurements and "eyeball" most dimensions close enough, with the above mentioned exceptions.
4) I first drilled about .010 under my finished sizer diameter, then finished it with an inexpensive boring bar from HF. BS's suggested purchase of bars with carbide inserts is a good one, but if you need to do it "on the cheap" for awhile those inexpensive boring bar sets with fixed carbide inserts will do the trick. You may need to do a little minor grinding to gain some necessary clearance--I did for a .309 die--but this is no big deal.
5) Step drill your lube holes, first with a 9/64bit, drill almost all the way through. Then, with a 1/16th(or smaller) bit, finish drilling the lube hole. I had good success drilling 3 holes around the circumference, and you can use one of your bullets to help determine spacing. A V-block clamped to your mill table makes this process fairly fast and accurate.
6) I turned my outside dimensions with a 3-jaw chuck, and got a concentricity within .001-.002. This was as good as the factory die, so I was happy with this. If you "play" with the chuck a bit, and tighten evenly around it, you will be surprised at how fast and accurate an inexpensive 3 jaw chuck can be.
7) Buckshot, that w-1 looks pretty, and probably machines better than this stuff I am practicing with, for sure! I see you have the counter-bore at the bottom, a nice touch.
That's all for now, if I think of a few more things I'll post them. Keep up the good work guys!
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

..............Lathesmith, Whatever you're using looks pretty nice too. W-1 is just the least expensive of the tool steels and it machines very well. If you can get it locally or a small quantity shipped, 12L14 machines like cheese. It cannot be through hardened but can be case hardened if you needed it so.

When I made that Star die I'd never seen one. A guy in TX was wanting a couple and sent one for me to get dimensions off of. I copied it exactly even to radiusing the .750" shoulders into the rebated center section. Since I'd never seen a Star lube sizer I thought I'd better since I didn't know what features were critical to it's correct operation.

I believe now that the relief groove cut behind the .875" flange could be deleted. The counterbore is no big deal and shortens up the length needing to be honed. Plus the shoulders on the two .750" bands probably only need to be broken instead of a full profile radius.

...............Buckshot

[lathesmith]

I see we think alot alike Buckshot. You are correct, the groove can be omitted. I do use my parting tool to make a slight cut here, however, just for the nice sharp edge it gives. But that's all that is needed.
It sounds like you went the "hard" route on that first one, but like me have learned since what is important and what isn't. That counter-bore diminsion isn't critical, just so it is there. You don't need to be forcing your slugs the full length of that die--tapered entrance, counter-bored exit, and only about 3/4 of an inch or so does the actual sizing.
I am going to place an order with Enco shortly, and I think I will go ahead and have them ship me a length of 7/8" 4140. This is the only grade they carry, their prices seem reasonable, and piggy backing it with my order will save me the shipping cost. I notice they carry "annealed" and " pre-hardened". I would assume I need to order annealed, as the "pre-hardened" is just that, and would not be machineable(at least not with MY tools). Is this correct?

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMK32?PARTPG=INSRAR2
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

...........You don't need 4140. Good ole W-1 is great AND cheaper! W-1 machines great with HSS tools. It's on page 667 in their master catalog.

409-0053 In Stock $18.93 ea. 7/8 x36" WATER HARDENING DRILL ROD

619-3674 In Stock $22.36 ea. 7/8"X36" 4140 STL PREHARDENED HOT ROLL ROUND

Check my earlier thread, re: Enco Free shipping code. It's good for orders over $50.

.............Buckshot

[kywoodwrkr]

Garandsrus,
I just today took my application for admission to the local state technical school in to the school.
Still waiting on transscripts from previous education facility.
2 Year program with CNC and etc as well.
I have 25 years as IBM systems engineer, 5 years with the KY lottery corp and ten years with EDS. All in systems or software end of the business. Now watch me fumble with the CNC!:-?
Figure I might just learn to make some cherries and create my own molds.
Maybe then I'll understand why LEE is so far behind!:mrgreen:
Have other things to make as well.
Oh, tuiton paid for by state.
All I have to do is buy the book(s).
Already spoke to instructors about where to buy tools.
They also informed me one of the custodians is sitting on a hoard of lead.
Many tons from what they said.
And culinary school is just across the hall!
They just split a 30 caliber 'can opener' to investigate the wear on the bore.
It said it was a 'canopener' because they aren't allowed to have any firearms around.
I'm going to work on some of my six hole 'pencil holders' for my RBH 30 carbine as the education takes hold.
We'll have to compare notes.
I start either Oct 11th or next January.
Haven't decided yet.
DaveP kywoodwrkr

[garandsrus]

Dave P,

Your program is much more intensive than mine! I go to class 3 hours per week. I will probably only take one class per semester as I don't have time for more.

I was with EDS in MI for 11 years.

John

[HotGuns]

An 1.250 dia. or bigger grade 8 bolt will work fine as well as grade 8 piece of allthread. Grade 8 allthread is 4140 that is heatreated. Its tough but is no problem with carbide tools. Just goe easy until you get past the threads and all will be well.

I've made several dies and sizing dies over the years that are still working great.

[leftiye]

Ky, Don't worry about the CNC programming. It's easy and straightforward. Really not too many code/commands to learn either.

Just remember that if you need to restart a piece/program that you halted in the middle- you have to add a short startup command to the code where you stopped. REALLY gets your attention if you don't and the machine slams the endmill into your work and breaks it. Would it be a waste of time to say- don't ask me how I know this? Saving grace was that I had the instructor there with me at the time, and he didn't know better either, made me feel somewhat better.

I've been on the track of making molds for years now, and the easy way is to bore out the mold halves on your lathe with a drill, and then add the lands, crimp grooves, and ogive with a boring bar. Mountain molds are made this way with a CNC lathe I've read. If you do it on an engine or toolroom lathe, you'll have to calculate the depth and width of cut for each land, and the travel to the next cut, and write it down in steps, and set up dial indicators to monitor actual carriage and crossfeed travel.

Ogive will probably almost have to be truncated cone flatpoint design, unless you make a shaped cutter to do the whole shebang in one cut. This probably won't work well except in aluminum though.

The hard part of the cherry method is making the vise that holds the mold halves separately and closes the mold halves on the cherry at the same rate for both halves.

[Swagerman]

OK, I give up trying to make a .433 sizing die for my old Lyman 45 lubrisizer press.

Tried reaming out a beater Lyman .358 diameter lube die to .433, It came out around .437...way too big to do me any good.

The .433 Lyman lube press die was a bad idea. What I really need is a Lee type sizing die in .433 that works with your reloading press and a nose punch to shove the bullets in the bottom and out the top into the old red bullet catch hopper.

Can anyone make one up for me by reaming or honning out a .429 or .430 Lee sizer die to not exceed .433 diameter.

This die is for experimental purposes, not sure it's going to be a viable workable solution to oversize cylinder throats.

Jim

[Red River Rick]

Swagerman:

Your best bet would be to use an adjustable Barrel Lap/Flexolap. These are brass laps used in conjunction with diamond lapping compounds to finish interior holes/bores. They work very well, I use them for making bleed dies for my Corbin Hydro Press.

Here's the link to DME U.S.A.: http://216.91.69.172/DCatalog/pages/N83_frame.htm

The laps aren't cheap but they work very well. Surely one of the other members should be able to help out, if not PM me, I have most of the laps.

RRR

[454PB]

If you send me a Lee die, I'll open it to .433".

If you'd rather have the Lyman 45/450/4500 type, I can do that too.

I'm presently using a .432 homemade Lyman style.

[Swagerman]

454PB, PM too you, sir.

Jim

[EDG]

You might try scrounging old rifle barrels and car axles for free steel. An old 416 stainless barrel is easy to machine. The most common Remington chrome-moly barrels are much tougher than a mauser barrel. They are supposed to be 4140 and machine like it. The steel for most of what you make does not need a pedigree.

The sizing dies you want to make can be made complete less the cross drilled holes and parted off.

Get an internal stop if you get a set of 5C collets.

[lathesmith]

Recently, I have made a few purchases and mods to my little lathe setup that makes fabricating sizer dies for my Star sizers a bit easier. First, I finally ponied up and purchased an ER-32 collet chuck. These seem a bit pricey, but a collet chuck is the final word in accuracy and concentricity, and they have phenominal gripping power. Also, they are non-marring, and I can take the die out and inspect it and re-chuck it without losing center... as I said, a lot of advantages here that makes working with smaller diameter stuff that much easier. I can grip up to 13/16" stock, and I thru-bored my spindle to .825 so I don't have to cut pieces off until I need to. This makes things more economical, and I don't waste as much stock this way. 13/16 is large enough for Star dies, so this is a great application for the ER 32 collet chuck.
BTW, I chose the ER 32 in part because I can also use the collets on my mini-mill. This simplifies things in the shop; I only need one set of collets for both machines. This saves both time and confusion, not to mention money. Once again, perfect for the small setup.
Also, I recently converted my HF 44859 lathe to DC variable speed. I love this mod! I retained the original belt and pulley setup, so the machine still has lots of torque when I need it. However, with the variable speed motor belt changes are almost a thing of the past, I need to change belts much less often.
And finally, I am making a little jig for drilling the lube holes in the die, so I don't have to lay these out on each die. This also speeds things up, and is good practice.
These little machines can be quite versitile and useful, once the proper tooling is at hand.
lathesmith

[jar-wv]

This thread has really got me too thinking about making a few sizer dies. Will be done on a much bigger lathe though. Looks to me like all work, with exception to drilling the lube holes, can be done without rechucking the work, unless theres something here I'm missing. Can't the whole thing be turned and bored, then parted off?

jar

[lathesmith]

jar, the answer to your question is "yes", and "no"(ain't life like that most of the time?) These Star dies need to be counter-bored from both ends, so only about 1/2" or less is actually sizing the boolit. However, this isn't critical, if you are out of round or your concentricity is a few thousandths off, it won't matter.
That being said, I like to take the sizer out and try a boolit or two to make sure it is the size I want it. I usually end up honing a bit more; once again, this is only a thousandth or two, and re-chucking shouldn't be a problem. I have also figured out I can turn three or four dies a time, getting the outside dimensions right. Then, I part these off, maybe bore them all the way through with a 1/4" bit, and then I have several "blanks" to work with at a later date. It is very convenient this way, I don't have to make a whole die from stock at once. This is where I really like to use the collet die; I don't have to worry about marring, and it is also very fast and accurate.
lathesmith

[garandsrus]

Lathesmith,

I had the same idea that I could turn the OD for several dies at once. Four sounds about right as it would be less than 12" so there shouldn't be any/much flex in the steel if turned between centers and taking light final cuts.

Are you using a boring bar for the counterbore? Are you adding a taper to start the boolit? If so, how many degrees do you use?

I haven't turned anything yet! We have a midterm exam next week and then we finally get to the shop the week after that. The lathe I purchased is still in pieces. I need to get it set up.

John

[jar-wv]

lathesmith,
Thanks for that info. Dies I'll be making are for Lyman 450. I was under the impression that the concentricity was very important. Another thing that can be done to assure least amount of runout when rechucking is to make a set of soft jaws out of mild steel. These require a mill to make though. Jaws can be tightened on a smaller peice in the back of the jaw, then bored out to about the size of piece you want to work on. I'm hoping to assemble all materials/tooling and see if I can get a die made during 20 minute lunch break, though I might have to cheat a bit on time.

jar

[lathesmith]

Yes, the concentricity of the sizer portion in relation to the outside diameter IS important, you want to get this as good as possible. The counter-bored portion isn't as important, because it just helps guide the bullet into the sizer portion.
I just use drill bits to get close to size, say, .010 under, then I use a boring bar to get within .001-.002 of final size. You get a more concentric die this way; I just use a slightly oversize drill bit for the counter bores. I polish it all up with emory cloth as a final step, then check an actual slug to verify the size. I won't use a drill chuck for the final size, because (1) drills or reamers the exact size are hard to come by; and (2) drill chucks themselves are not that accurate. I always get a laugh out of some of those guys on other boards, bragging about getting within so many ten thousanths and such, and then talk of this kind of accuracy with a drill chuck. If you check the specs, unless you spend several hundred dollars on a high precision drill chuck, most average drill chucks are only concentric within .002-.004. While this is good enough for most work, I like to get these sizing dies as concentric as possible--and it can be done more accurately with the boring bar.
jar, if you can get one of these done in 20 minutes, you are one FAST worker! However, the Lyman dies should be faster than the Stars, I'll bet with some practice you will be able to make one pretty quick.
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

............lathesmith, those ER collets are nifty. I have a set of 32's and 40's:

http://www.fototime.com/9934433C592D797/standard.jpg

They're MT3 chucks since the spindle nose adaptor on my lathe takes MT3. When I get my milling machine I'll have to get a couple R8 collet chucks. The only problem I have with them in a lathe is that you can't pass stuff through the spindle. That is unless there is some kind of collet chuck that maybe uses a backing plate or could be threaded on a threaded spindle nose.

I have the 5C collet setup on the lathe a good 90% of the time. The beauty here is that you can pass a 1" OD rod through the spindle, plus advance your material while the lathe is running. The only problem is you have to have a spindle bore of 1-3/8" or a spindle nose 5C collet chuck. When you get right down to it, a 3 jaw chuck can be the least wastefull of material. If you will be turning off more material then the chuck has runout you can do very precise work. And if you mark the work, and put it back the same you'll maintain concentricity.

.............jar-wv, I make die body blanks up beforehand. I'll only make Lyman-RCBS lube size dies and Lee type push throughs anymore for other folks. The Stars are too fussy and the lube holes are a PITA. They just take too much time for what I can charge for them. When I do a run of die bodies I start with a 3' piece of .750" W-1 in a 5C through the spindle.

http://www.fototime.com/6A7B4820DA9AEED/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/13A02A26BD7AC9F/standard.jpg

Next I set up the tools in their QC holders so they're all zeroed via the cross slide dial. 1st up and closest in the photo is the facing tool. Next up is the parting tool, which is the last in line. Once it is installed the carriage is moved back to indicate 2" on the dial indicator (right photo). Wish I had a DRO! The workpiece is pushed out against the parting blade and locked.

http://www.fototime.com/E84A29C734013C9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/065AEE68C7DAC46/standard.jpg

Then the carriage is cranked back 1.657" (0.100" for the parting blade) and a partial depth cut made ( left above). Then it's removed and the 2nd tool in the photo which is a lefthand turning tool is dropped in place, the cross slide is dialed in .030" and hit the power feed to bring the die body to .720" OD. The carriage is cranked back to within 1/4" of the end of the dieand the crossfeed is dialed in 0.018" and the powerfeed is again engaged to bring the body down to .702".

The turning tool is removed and the next up is a combination tool. It cuts the O-ring and set screw groove at the same time. The setscrew groove is usefull on only the oldest 45 series lube presses, but people seem to like to see it, usefull or not. These tools are merely drill bit shanks ground to shape. They're held in a piece of 1/2" square keystock with setscrews.

http://www.fototime.com/37F8EF0616265BF/standard.jpg

2nd to last is a simple bit ground to cut the bevel on the base of the die body. After that the parting blade is put in place and the die blank is parted off. The carriage is cranked back, the collet lever is pulled and the barstock is fed out again, and the process starts all over. Each die body takes about 2.5 minutes to complete.

To make a completed die from the blank, you use a 45/64 5C collet which holds the .702" diameter. It's centerdrilled and normally drilled with a 1/4" bit. I have 10 Guhring TiN coated 1/4" parabolic bits and they are simply unbelievable. I've used, and am STILL using the first bit to drill starter holes. I've used it for anything a 1/4" bit could be used on and I suspect this thing has been stuck through 100' of steel. I got the 10 for a pittance on E-Bay but they catalog for over $27 each!

After the pilot hole it naturally depends on how big it needs to end up being which determines what comes next. Whether it's another drill bit and reamer, or whatever I'll bring the bore to within a thousandth or so by boring. Before boring the lube holes are drilled. The die body is marked to index with the size marking on the nose of the collet so it can be put back the same.

http://www.fototime.com/5021F858C13FB93/standard.jpg

In the above photo is a Circle C solid carbide bar that accepts carbide inserts. MSC offered 4 sizes over a couple months as a promotion. They're normally between 2 and 3 hundred scooties apiece. MSC had them for $107 each so I bit the bullet and got a 3/16", 1/4", 3/8" and a 1/2" bar. Using light cuts and feeds they're good for 10X stickout. If someone wants a .361" die I'll bore so it will accept a .360" pin gage but refuse a .361" pin gage.

http://www.fototime.com/8B4152A248977B0/standard.jpg

If possible they're finally brought to finish size via brass barrel laps in the lathe. If not, a split aluminum lap and carborundum is used. The die is removed and a lead slug is upset and driven through, then miked.

...................Buckshot

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, that is a good setup for cranking out sizer dies in a hurry! I had forgotten about using a dial indicator or a DRO for gauging length, I need to get my little lathe set up with one of these to speed things up. Nice!
My ER 32 collet chuck for the lathe DOES allow stock to pass through the spindle bore, up to 13/16". Check out this link:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3046&category=
I have only found one place, on Ebay, that has a 13/16 collet for the ER32 chuck. An extra 1/16" doesn't sound like much, but it allows me to make these dies and other parts using a full 13/16 diameter drill rod. Also, I can use this to hold my Thompson Contender barrels, for a little custom work. I might have opted for a 5C, but I would need a whole new set of tooling, and I am still limited to 13/16 pass-thru on my lathe. I have an R-8 ER 32 chuck for my mini-mill, much like the one you have pictured. One set of collets for two machines is fine for me. I decided to opt for a decent Bison 5" 3jaw chuck to hold bigger stuff; these seem to be a good price/accuracy trade-off.
It sounds like you have also discovered the 'bay as a fantastic source of bargain tooling and other things. I'll have to see if I can find some good drills and such there, you never know what might turn up!
lathesmith

[Swagerman]

I bought this big a$$ 7/8X14 bolt to make into a swaging die, the seller said it was grade five in hardness...will that be good enough to make a swaging die body for .44 caliber.

The swaging die will have an ejector stem running through a top smaller bolt like in picture.

The bolt will have to be cut and top reamed out to take the top bolt in my picture.

My lathe's chuck isn't up to the task, so will have to get some local area machinest to help me with it.

Jim

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P3060002boltturnedintodie518X.jpg

[lathesmith]

My guess would be "yes", that grade 5 stuff is pretty hard. One important consideration is to make sure the threads are concentric with the bore, once you bore it out. My experience with machine bolts is that while they are good material for making stuff, often the threads are a bit off-center and/or crooked from the rest of the bolt. You should have enough material to correct for this.
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

...............lathesmith, just checked out that addy for the spindle flange ER collet deal you got. Now that's just plain snazzy! It has me thinking. I bought a 5C collet pad to mount a 4" 3 jaw scroll chuck on (below).

http://www.fototime.com/B098A4398940041/standard.jpg

I wonder if I could put that pass through ER chuck on a 5" 5C collet pad? Since 5C's don't have the collapse range (plus mine are by 32nds) it's a PITA. I have to pull the 5C collet closer out, then knock the spindle adaptor out, Then take the ER collet chuck and install the 3MT spindle nose adaptor and drawbar in.

If I could mount that ER collet to a 5C it would be a 15 second change, ha! Does that ER collet have any features on the back of the flange or is it flat straight across? Heck, I might even be able to set it up as an "Adjust -Tru" type setup with setscrews around the perimeter.

.................Buckshot

[Morgan Astorbilt]

John, I agree with all of the above, except I always finish grind my dies after hardening. Try to find a good used toolpost grinder like a Dumore for your size lathe. make sure it has internal as well as external capabilities. Leave a thou or two for finishing before hardening. By finish grinding after hardening, you can get the accuracy down to a few tenths, and remove any changes caused by stress relieving during hardening.
Morgan

[jar-wv]

Well. I have found that the smallest boring bar at work is 1/2". How bad will concentricity suffer if I drill to as close as I can, then finish bore with sandpaper and emory wrapped around a steel rod with a split in it to hold the sandpaper? I'm just wanting to make a few dies, and can't justify the cost of a boring bar.

jar

[Swagerman]

There is a tool you can get from D-M-E called Flexolap, it looks something like a boring bar but has some special cutter around the front end that will hone smooth to a very tight tollerance.

Do a web search for D-M-E.com maybe that will help. They didn't quote any prices but expect its quite expensive.

Sorry, couldn't make a link with my dang computer, its on Acrobat.

Jim

[Buckshot]

Well. I have found that the smallest boring bar at work is 1/2". How bad will concentricity suffer if I drill to as close as I can, then finish bore with sandpaper and emory wrapped around a steel rod with a split in it to hold the sandpaper? I'm just wanting to make a few dies, and can't justify the cost of a boring bar.

jar

............You'll want to use oiled wet or dry silicone carbide paper. A couple of issues. The more you have to sand, the more likely you'll be to taper or wasp waist the die ID. You can mitigate this to a degree by cutting thin slivers of shimstock to place in the end of the split. You see, the open end will collapse or close down when you stick the split rod in the bore.

The problem with the drill bit is in just how close CAN you come to your desired ID? Much more then a couple thousandths is a bunch. Even the best bit is going to make a somewhat 3 lobed hole a tad over it's listed size. Then add in a bit for any possible tailstock miss-match. Even if the tailstock is dead nuts, your chuck will have some effect also, as they will have some bit of runout.

My suggestion would be to make a boring bar. I'd use a drill bit as the quickest, cheapest, easiest way to go, however it has to have a hardened shank. The sticking point is that some are not hardened just so the chuck jaws can get a bite. Grind the end to form the cutter and use a light cut and a fine feed to minimize chatter, as you're going to have to have it stuck out over 1.5".

http://www.fototime.com/129DCEECEED65CD/standard.jpg

This is about the only pic I have to use as an example. However it's a form cutter used for making a 58 caliber Minie' swage die but the idea is exactly the same. I used a drill blank. Grind the end in half, and grind in some relief and you'll have to grind the OD of the bit to provide clearance in the hole. Since you won't be taking deep cuts you don't to grind a lot of clearance.

For the cutting end you want to grind in a very slight radius viewed as looking stright down at it, and you don't want it very wide. Maybe 1/8" front to back and the radius will allow only a couple thousandths to bear against the die ID. After grinding stone it to provide a fine edge. Limit your DOC's to 2-3 thousandthsand the feed to no more then .002 per revolution.

Squirt in some oil and hit the power feed. When cutting you should hear the faintest continuous hissing sound and you'll be doing good. When you withdraw the tool it should have a fine metallic slurry on it. As below

http://www.fototime.com/CFC43FFAA50298D/standard.jpg

..............Buckshot

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, the back of that ER32 collet chuck is simply for a 5" plain back, see the posted photo.
LMS has a chuck adaptor to bolt this chuck to a 4" plain back spindle, like the one you already have. If you want to make a "set-tru" set-up, making your own backing plate would be the way to go; make a plate to fit the 5" ER 32 chuck, and then make it to slip over and bolt to your 4" plate. You could then use 3 allen screws around the perimeter to "float" your adaptor on the flange, and get it centered. I know that may not be very clear, but if you think about it I believe you will figure out what I am getting at here. There is really not enough lip on the ER 32 chuck itself to do this; that is why you would need a separate plate.
lathesmith

[jar-wv]

Buckshot. Thanks for that info. I'm still on the lookout for a small carbide or tool steel cutter I can make the bar from. I may even wander onto a boring bar. Organization is not the best at work.

jar

[Buckshot]

..............I was in the 'Thinkatorium' this AM and was perusing the JTS tool catalog. They're in Ohio so not too far away from you. I ran across their drill and reamer blanks and yuo can pickup a jobber length 1/4" drill blank (hardened from end to end) for like a buck and a half. Be good for 30 cal.

................Buckshot

[leftiye]

You can get Carbide blanks from MSC and other sources(probly even ENCO). Stiffer. I use a 90 degree Carbide inside threading bar for this kind of thing when the hole doesn't have to be too deep. For bigger stuff, you can't beat Mr. Astorbuilt's approach of drilling, reaming, hardening, then grinding, and polishing. Use a steel that you actually can harden correctly!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Keep an eye out for a tool post grinder with internal grinding capabilites. Get yourself a miniature boring bar, and you won't need reamers. You'll be able to drill the the stock, bore it to a thou or two under, and grind and hone it to size AFTER hardening, This is the way I've been doing it for years, I've even made multi diameter lube dies for my schuetzen bullets.
Morgan