Titanium 44

[Dr. A]

A couple of weeks ago my good buddy had plans of developing a "bear load" with his tiny L framed 44 special. I had my doubts, but he said that Smith and Wesson's 396 was capable of sending a 250gr. bullet down the tube at about 1000fps. He special ordered the gas checked Buffalo bore round, and found it gave him what he claimed was 1 hole accuracy at 25 yards. The 50 yard targets had 12 inch groups, and so we set about trying to find out why. I've shot it a time or two for a couple of rounds, and reminds me of the gun that is fine to be carried, but painful to shoot. I shoot 454's and 45's high pressure loaded all the time, but the recoil from an alloy gun is almost viceral. Violent kick with no weight to the gun left me wondering if these "bad loads", were simply flinching. My friend is no beginner. At 54, and the Deputy cheif of police, he has led a distinguished career and done well in competition time and again. He is quick and can outshoot virtually anybody I've ever seen. We centered our loads around the 250gr Keith from the group buy. Buffalo bore's bullet is gas checked, but I don't have any 250's with checks.and have only a 310 and 290 gas checked in this caliber for molds. The Keith shoots very accurately in my 44 and 444, as we thought that this would be a good bullet to pursue. I tried 2400, Lil Gun, Power Pistol, Unique, Hercules, AA#9, AA#7, with varying charges. The best accuracy in the group was 6 inches at 50 yards. ( unacceptable) with AA #9 at 11.5gr. This only gave 780fps, and was nothing we were going to pursue any further. After this little search out and frustration, I couldn't help feeling that something was amiss. When he first got the gun, he sent it back because it would'nt shoot cast at all. They replaced the "liner" with no questions asked. He has a very good relationship with Smith, and they seem to tweek his guns, (repaint, reconfigure)etc, whatever he needs. The gun it turns out has a liner barrel ( he didn't tell me this) with polygonal rifling. The thing will shoot smaller bullets slower, but not the big ones. There is a good writeup by Glenn Fryxell concerning its brother, the 696, and the obvious limitations to this little wheeler.

The last straw came when he was done with the loads I'd made up. , Flame cutting on the top strap was stupendous. It was just starting before we began, but after only 50 rounds of around 20,000 pressure stuff, there are chunks missing from the alloy frame! I know they'll repair it, but I quit trying to make a bear gun out of a grouse gun! Too bad they can't make a useful revolver on a smaller scale! I was thinking about getting another 625 in the alloy configuration, but I've had my fill!

It was truley a gun meant to be carried and not shot. Buffalo bore needs to reevaluate thier load in this gun. This again reminds me of why I continue to shoot and buy Rugers! An alloy frame is a great idea that just doesn't quite make it to the frequent shooter program.:Fire: :roll: :-?

[44man]

You are right about it being a carry gun, not to be shot like a Ruger. You are also right about the weight of the gun blowing the long range groups. There is no way to control barrel rise or torque, it is just too wild. One of the reasons even a good steel gun with a real short barrel will not shoot as good as a long barrel. Everyone says it is the sight radius but recoil management is more important. I hunt deer with my guns and I will not own less then 7-1/2" and prefer 10" because all of my shots are offhand. I want the weight to tame barrel rise.
On another shooting site, everyone is getting magnums cut to stupid, short lengths. They are good if a bear has you on the ground with his paws holding your shoulders down. By then he has your head in his mouth!

[Ghugly]

Sorry to hear of your frustration. I have read Glenn Fryxell's article and tried to glean some information that was useful to me. My son and I both have new, Charter 2000 .44 Bulldogs and I have been working up loads for them. It seems, from what little information I've been able to get, that the rules are different when working up loads for polygonal rifling. Gunblast has an interesting article about working up loads for the Bulldog, but I don't know if it will be of much use to you http://www.gunblast.com/Cassill_Bulldog.htm . It does give some idea of the performance that can be obtained from a snubby .44 without pushing it too far.

You've tried more powders through a snubby .44 than anyone I've been able to find, anywhere. I would really appreciate hearing about your findings concerning velocities with the different powders behind the Keith in the snubby. I've been playing around with Unique and Bullseye with the thought that faster powders made more sense when working with a short barrel. Without purchasing a bunch of different powders, most of witch I have no other use for, I've been kind of left to my own thoughts on what is reasonable.

[Dr. A]

I too had read that article, and in fact have that hollowpoint mold. (devastator) The polygonal rifling is what is the major weakness here. The Smith is perhaps better to a higher pressure than your bulldog. (not taking into account the melting backstrap). This gun is nevertheless hampered by the rilfing keeping the bullet from stability at this higher velocity. I'm not sure what is happening as I haven't been present for the testing, but in the abscence of tumbling, I'd say unstable in a way like a bullet is when sliding through a barrel without a firm grip. NO accuracy imparted. Also reminds me of a 357 mag plain base bullet going through a carbine at high velocity. The bullet is properly sized. (.430 in this case)

[Ghugly]

This is not the first time I've heard of flame cutting with titanium frames. I guess the weight savings is pretty nice but, all in all, I think I'll stick with steel.

[leftiye]

Short barrelled guns get pretty much the same results velocity wise with various powders that the longer barrelled ones do. The fastest powders velocity wise are still the slower "magnum" powders. And of course they make tremendous muzzle blast. This from a 1970's loading manual, But they're still using those powders.

You'd think that a powder that burned faster would peak sooner, and work better in a short barrel. Apparently not. Bullet gets moving about the same and the faster load is still the faster.

[Bret4207]

I think there comes a point where you nhave to ask yourself if the extra 100-150 fps is really worth it. How much more effective will that 250 be at 950-1000fps rather than at 850-900fps? At bear whomping range I wonder if it'll matter at all?

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a 396 and shot loads even a tick hotter then yours. I wont post them here but was getting a tad over 1100 fps out of a 250 keith. Recoil was visious and the gun was harder on the hand then my 4 inch 500 linebaugh. I proably shot 500 of these loads through it and the gun was surely no worse for the wear. Smith told me on the phone that the gun would handle these loads and was actually stronger then the steal one. I just got tired of bleading all over it and traded it out for a 696. As to long and short barrels i may be the odd one out here but i actually do better off hand with a 4 inch barrel then i do with a long one. Probably because i shoot the shorter guns a heck of alot more then the long ones. Personaly i cant abide a handgun barrel longer then 6 inch on any sixgun. If im going to carry something that big it might as well be a tc or a rifle. Ive gone through the whole transistion from rifle hunting to tcs scoped to sixguns scoped to just a plain old sixgun. I guess to me if a guy cant hit with a 4 inch smith or 4 5/8s blackhawk at hunting ranges he just needs a little more trigger time as there just as accurate as any long barreled gun but just require a little more consentration in the trigger control dept. I here all the time that old eyes and long barrels work fine but im 50 and my eyes are as tired as the next guy as a matter of fact probably more lately but i still tend to shoot a shorter barreled gun as good or better then a long one. Handgun shooting is 80 percent trigger control and 20 percent sight picture and the 4 inch guns work fine for me out to a 100 yards. If it gets to the point they dont i guess ill just have to hunt with glasses on.

[MT Gianni]

25 yards is still a long ways from a bear, probably 1 or 2 false charges. Most people will feel threatened if one looks at us from 100 yards but for a bear pistol, mine will be out at 25 yds but not up if given enough warning. IMHO it just needs to go in the ear hole before they start chewing on you. Gianni

[44man]

One of the most important reasons I like a longer barrel is to get the muzzle blast way out there. I don't like plugs or muffs when hunting and one shot at game doesn't bother me.
The other reason is I like to do a lot of long range accuracy work when it is not hunting season and I do love shooting to 500 meters a lot.
With the weight boolits and loads I shoot, I don't want a short barrel. Since none are just carry guns, I don't need the short barrel. I am used to carrying a 12# Hawkin all over Ohio and WV, how much better a long barrel revolver feels.
To take a .500 S&W, .475, .480 or a .454 and cut it to 2 or 3" doesn't make any sense to me. You would need a super strong grip on it to hold down the barrel or you will shoot over everything from the violent barrel rise. You also need good muffs at all times. But then you can burn the game so you can eat it in the field.
When I first got my 7-1/2" .475, I was blowing a ton of hair off the top of deer without breaking the skin because I relax too much shooting at them. I have to tell myself to hold tight so I don't overshoot. I could not imagine a 3" barrel! I don't like to aim at the ground in order to hit them.
Now a .45 Colt with a short barrel for a carry gun or backup gun sounds a lot better.
I don't see the logic in cutting one of the large magnums down and then loading to .45 Colt ranges so it can be controlled. With full power loads, the velocity loss, fireball and blast combined with barrel rise makes them worthless. Want a big boolit, how about a .500 special?
I like the looks and feel of short barrels but I think it is important to use the right caliber for them. I am not against short barrels taken in proper context.

[Dr. A]

My friend is leaving for Alaska later this week. He is reluctantly going to take his Ruger Blackhawk 45 loaded with Big hollowpoint bullets I made. He thinks his 5.5 in. barrel is too heavy to pack. It sure was alot easier to get too shoot!

[Lloyd Smale]

I now own 2 4 inch 500s and have had two others that were 5.5 inch guns and one 4 5/8s and recoil (at least percieved recoil) is less in the 4 inch gun and so is muzzle flip. I attribute it to the shorter time the bullet spends in the barrel. My 4 inch guns will consistantly place bullets of differnt weights and at differnt velocitys alot closer to the same point of aim as my longer barreled ones will and id guess its for the same reason. 500s arent that bad on the ears. Nothing like a 454 but i still wear walker game ears when in the field. Im deaf enough allready from shooting handguns without them and even shooting a rifle in the field will do damage to your ears. But id gladly crank off a cylinder full of full power 500 loads rather then one round out of a super 14 in 3030 or 730 without hearing protection. Id about bet i can draw my 4 inch 500 and put two rounds on a target at 25 yards faster then most can with a 7.5 inch 357 slung in a shoulder holster. bottom line is barrel lenght is more of a personal preference then a critical desision for a hunting gun. I only need one gun bigger then 4 inch!!
One of the most important reasons I like a longer barrel is to get the muzzle blast way out there. I don't like plugs or muffs when hunting and one shot at game doesn't bother me.
The other reason is I like to do a lot of long range accuracy work when it is not hunting season and I do love shooting to 500 meters a lot.
With the weight boolits and loads I shoot, I don't want a short barrel. Since none are just carry guns, I don't need the short barrel. I am used to carrying a 12# Hawkin all over Ohio and WV, how much better a long barrel revolver feels.
To take a .500 S&W, .475, .480 or a .454 and cut it to 2 or 3" doesn't make any sense to me. You would need a super strong grip on it to hold down the barrel or you will shoot over everything from the violent barrel rise. You also need good muffs at all times. But then you can burn the game so you can eat it in the field.
When I first got my 7-1/2" .475, I was blowing a ton of hair off the top of deer without breaking the skin because I relax too much shooting at them. I have to tell myself to hold tight so I don't overshoot. I could not imagine a 3" barrel! I don't like to aim at the ground in order to hit them.
Now a .45 Colt with a short barrel for a carry gun or backup gun sounds a lot better.
I don't see the logic in cutting one of the large magnums down and then loading to .45 Colt ranges so it can be controlled. With full power loads, the velocity loss, fireball and blast combined with barrel rise makes them worthless. Want a big boolit, how about a .500 special?
I like the looks and feel of short barrels but I think it is important to use the right caliber for them. I am not against short barrels taken in proper context.

[44man]

Hard to understand! How much does a few inches of barrel weigh???? We are talking a few ounces. I just weighed my bows, they weigh 7-1/2 to 8#. A big bore rifle weighs close to that. I bet he has more sweets and goodies packed then the revolver weighs. [smilie=1:

[44man]

Lloyd, is your .500 ported? What is the velocity with the short barrel?
Speed is not important at all for my hunting. I can understand it for protection in bear country and think that is where the shorter barrels are good.
I can't afford the Walker's game ear.

[Bass Ackward]

I tell ya, the gun industry just loves discussions like this. Short vs long, big vs even bigger! Guns too heavy to pack. Not big enough! Different calibers for every day of the week.

Just think of how we're driving this economy.

5, BFRs and can't afford a Walker's game ear. These are hard times were livin in today, boy.

[44man]

Bass, I had to sell off a valuable collection of guns to buy the BFR's. One was a prized XP100 that I customized. I will forever miss those guns. You have to understand the pain I still go through about the loss. I am retired! I have a tough time buying primers and powder. And I only have 2 BFR's. I gave up 4 guns for them.
About shorter barrels, my .475 is 7-1/2" ( I wanted 10" but it was a special order and would have cost another $300 because I got mine on sale.) and I can control it. My friend has a shorter .475 and when I shoot it with one hand from Creedmore, it comes back almost to the side of my head. About twice the distance of mine. I don't think that is condusive for a hunting gun. At hand shaking distance to a bear, OK. I don't understand why something like a .475 special (.480) is not actually better in a short barrel!!!!
I will never understand the trend for shorter handguns and as the calibers, size of cases and powers keep going up, it seems everyone wants them shorter. Can you REALLY burn 26 to 30 gr's of 296 in a 2" barreled .475? Load 1/4 of the case with real fast powder and tell me why you needed the larger case to start with? I am baffled. It is like buying a .300 mag and only shooting 30-30 loads out of it. Case capacity is a total loss. About like cutting the .300 mag barrel to 18" and shooting full power loads expecting higher power then a 30-06. What a waste!
I only see bragging rights to friends and the love of huge fireballs.
Granted, I am old school and believe in matching barrel length to case capacity. My only vice is my 45-70 BFR but it has a 10" barrel and I could not envision shorter. I have enough trouble with powder selection and wasted case capacity. I wish it was 14". It is for HUNTING, not to stuff in a back pocket. Yeah, I have heard of guys wanting to cut them short too, WHAT IN THE WORLD FOR, a king size .45 Colt?
It seems as if ballistic facts no longer apply.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I had to sell off a valuable collection of guns to buy the BFR's. One was a prized XP100 that I customized. I will forever miss those guns. You have to understand the pain I still go through about the loss. I am retired! I have a tough time buying primers and powder. And I only have 2 BFR's. I gave up 4 guns for them.


I remember a woman in 1993 talking on TV to CBS about how she was so poor that she had to live in her kitchen because it was the only room she could afford to heat after paying her taxes. Now her I felt sorry for. She looked destitute.

That is until they showed that she lived in a 12 bedroom mansion valued at about $1,000,000 that she refused to sell. AS they say on those commercials, life comes at you fast and people make poor decisions.

Do like me. I went into Cabella's and they asked me if I wanted a credit card. Would save me BIG money, they said. I asked them if they got discounts for working there and they said sure. I asked them for an employment application instead. But the damn ol lady refuses to fill it out. :grin:

My time is too valuable, put her to work!!!

But your whinning reminds me of Pat Marlin. He was complaining to me that it was 64 miles to the nearest town for gun supplies. I got suckered in to feelin sorry for him too. All the way up until I found out that it was 56 miles to his front security gate!!!

[44man]

If you figure out how, get my wife a job! I don't whine, I am happy, my house is paid for. I just don't like being called rich because I have 2 BFR's. If I was rich, I would have 20 of them and would have kept my other guns.
I get along but can't splurge on stuff.
I drive a 1982 Chevy and a 1990 Toyota. What are you driving? c'mon Bass, tell me about your $40,000 vehicle.

[KCSO]

I packed a pistol across the rockies a time or two and I was a lot more worried about where I was going to put that bullet than about how fast it was going. A loud miss never put meat on the table. And most pissed off bears seem to be deaf. A good warm 44 special load will go through the skull and thats all it needs to do. All you have to do is put it there. As to weight If a 3 pound gun is too heavy to carry you might think about some weight training.

[KYCaster]

Oooohh, Bass.....ya need a few more smileys on that one!!:groner:

When I was a kid, Dad had to find eight jobs.....one for each of us kids and one for Mom!

One summer, all we had to eat was turnip greens...we ate so many turnip greens Mom had to tie coal oil rags around our ankles so the cut worms would leave us alone!

That's the summer my uncle bought a new house....we went and helped him take the wheels off!

Pop never had to pay rent, he just paid the parking tickets!

Talk about hand-me-downs...wouldn't have been so bad, but I had older sisters!


Sorry fellas, I just couldn't help it!!!!:mrgreen:

Jerry

[Lloyd Smale]

44 man all i can compare the 4 inch guns in linebaugh chambers to are the 5.5 inch guns as ive actually owned them but for an average id say i loose about a 100 fps out of a 500 using a 4 inch barrel. Granted as the bore size goes down the velocity spread would proably go up slightly. Funny thing is my buddys 4 5/8s 500 gives velocitys about identitcal to his 7.5 500. Like you a hundred ftps doenst me squat to me. I just spend alot more time walking then i do shooting when hunting and packing that 4 inch gun is a pleasure compared to strapping on a shoulder rig and toteing a 7.5 inch gun. Some people will argue that and thats fine as its more of a personal preference. I know the 4 inch guns clear leather alot faster but to be honest the most dangerous thing in the woods here is a black bear and that aint to dammed dangerous. To me the short guns just ballance better in the hand and because of it i shoot them off hand better then a long barreled gun. Sitting on the bench i could probably shoot better long range groups with a long barrrel but thats not the way i hunt anyway. I will though stand by my opionion that a short barreled big bore actually has less percieved recoil then a long one. Ive noticed that with my guns and have had less experienced shooters shoot them side by side with the same loads and say the same thing. I dont think youd notice it in something as mild as a 44 mag but when you step up to a 475 or 500 it is apparent. As you allready know barrel lenght has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy of a gun. If you can hold a short barrel as steady as a long one its going to shoot just as well. I wish you could handle and shoot one of my 4 inch 500s. Id about bet youd fall in love. I picked the first one up at a linebaugh seminar a few years ago. John had just got done building it. He actually didnt want to build it as he prefers 5.5 inch guns himself but he kind of got flooded with orders after a few guys saw and shot mine. The second one that dustin built is a oct barrel case hardened blued one and its just a work of art. I know its mine and im vane to say it but its one of the nicest custom sixguns ive seen anywhere. Hes building me a 475 on an aniversary flat top soon. Hes got the gun but i dont have the money yet. I dont know the barrel lenght but it will probably be a 4 5/8s or 5.5. My first thought was another 4 inch gun but Ive got the two 4 inch 500s and two custom 4 inch 45s from clements and probably will go longer just to be differnt. My thoughts right now are just to turn dustin loose and let him build what he wants on it. Its going to be a while anyway and it will give me time to think. Hes still doing the short barreled redhawk in 44 mag for me (still my favorite caliber) and harton is doing a 32 sw bearcat for me that ive got to finish paying for. As to the hearing protection. I, most likely like you, allready suffer from hearing loss. If i were you id sell one of your guns and buy a set of walkers. Your hearing is worth much more then a gun pal. Everytime you pull that trigger in the hunting field your doing damage. Even with a rifle. Even with a little 22. The new walkers are so nice that you dont even know you have them in once you get used to them. They are nice to in that I hear much better with them in as they amplify sounds in the woods to and that helps with my poor ears. I tried the cheaper ones and although they worked i never found a set that was comfortable enough to keep in all day. I even find myself comming back to camp and forgetting i have them in. I rank them right up there with dillon presses and star sizers as the best investment i ever made.