1850 fps from a 357

[45r]

I read a post from one of the members that loaded 16.0 grains lil-gun in his rossi with standard primers and the group buy 185GC.I tried 16.0 grains and a fed small pistol primer with my mtn mold 185GC boolit and got 1850 fps and inch and a half groups at 50 yards.primers weren't flattened and the brass extracted easy.I'm wondering if this is common with a 357 in a rifle.this is 100 fps faster than H-110 using 16.0 grains with the same primer.It shot inch and a half also.16.0 grains imr 4227 shoots 1590 fps with rem 71/2 primers and is more accurate with one inch groups.I guess 16.0 grains is the right number for my rifle.this is better performance than I expected.this isn't too far behind a 30-30 and uses a lot less powder.

[Cracker]

:shock: :-|

[Poohgyrr]

45r,

That is exactly right. One of the main reasons I changed my mind about the .357 Lever combination and finally got one. Just have to use up my 296 and then I can buy some Lil Gun.

[jerdog53]

Was that a 16" barrel?

I have figured that type of speed out of my 24" Marlin and often wondered about a faster burning rifle power like RL-7 might shine but havent tried it and there isn't any data out there on it. Haven't had a lot of luck with the 4227 left a lot of unburnt powder in the bore, maybe need more crimp.

[lar45]

The Rossi is a very strong gun and has been factory chambered in 454. With the smaller 357 case, you'd think the pressure could be run up to 50-60k. Probably have to use a rifle primer and make sure they didn't find their way into a pistol.

[Scrounger]

The Rossi is a very strong gun and has been factory chambered in 454. With the smaller 357 case, you'd think the pressure could be run up to 50-60k. Probably have to use a rifle primer and make sure they didn't find their way into a pistol.

If someone wanted to maximize the velocity in the .357 bore, using A '92 action or Marlin 1894 at the pressures they were designed for, I recommend rechambering it to .357/44 Baines and Davis. I might even be interested myself if a competent gunsmith showed up.

[RoyRogers]

I would think the brass is too thin to run safely @ 50-60K PSI even w/rifle primers.

[Jon K]

Not to Hi Jack this thread, but if you want 1800+, then go with the 35/55 Mikey was talking about, or my choice would be to make a 30-30 into a 357 Herrett. Dies, reamers, and brass are readily available and cheap. I just saw some RCBS dies used - $10/set at a reloading store.

Jon

[felix]

Forget the Herrett, and go all the way to 35-30. If you want a shorter neck for more powder, that's OK too, but then you'd get into the 35 remington range. The advantage of the normal 30-30 neck length is to keep the capacity small enough to shoot the faster powders even more better than the 30-30 even thought of. Go for 18 twist to shoot the pistol bullets, and make the grooves closer to 357 to handle these mo'betta'. That would call for 348 lands making a tight bore. You can size boolits tighter as well, and take advantage of a tighter neck situation too. ... felix

[Scrounger]

JohnK and Felix, see first post. He is talking about a Rossi (Win 92 clone) so 1.6" to 1.75" is all the length it can handle. I still say to use the .357/44 B&D.

[felix]

Sorry! Just did not see the first post. Necking down the 44 has been done quite often to 35 cal. In fact, I think my gunsmith (only one remaining around here) has done it and has the reamer(s). ... felix

[BAGTIC]

JohnK and Felix, see first post. He is talking about a Rossi (Win 92 clone) so 1.6" to 1.75" is all the length it can handle. I still say to use the .357/44 B&D.

I have considered the .357/B&D myself but I really don't like the case shape for cast bullets. I would lengthen the neck by shoving back the shoulder back and increase the shoulder angle thereby increasing the case capacity. The longer neck would come in better for cast bullets, especially gas checks.

[lar45]

The 92 action is smooth and the whole gun just feels right to pack and shoot.
A person could go the 357-44 B&D or maybe go bigger and get a gun in 454 or 480 and neck that down to 357.
The Puma in 480 is supposed to be able to work with rounds long enough for the 475 Linebaugh.
The Linebaugh case holds 50 gns H20
The 30-30 is at 45
So you could end up with about the same or more powder capacity and be able to run higher pressures vs a Win 94

But where to stop?
35/30-30, 356 Win, or maybe get an 1895 Marlin in 45-70 or 450 Marlin and make a slightly short 350 Rem mag?
A 45-70 case run up into the 350 Rem size die makes a nice looking case. the neck is a little too short.

Maybe a guy could use a 350 Rem chamber reamer, but not run it in all the way, then trim down stock 350 Rem loading dies?

[Poohgyrr]

A simple way for the M92's is to just buy Buffalo Bore's 180 gr. .357 Mag hard cast load. Quite a few folks have clocked it at 1800 fps out of 16" Trappers. The Marlin has what, another 2" or so of barrel and should do it too.

All the other rounds would also be a lot of fun... :)

[woody1]

But where to stop?
35/30-30, 356 Win, or maybe get an 1895 Marlin in 45-70 or 450 Marlin and make a slightly short 350 Rem mag?
A 45-70 case run up into the 350 Rem size die makes a nice looking case. the neck is a little too short.

Maybe a guy could use a 350 Rem chamber reamer, but not run it in all the way, then trim down stock 350 Rem loading dies?

Or mebe we could just reinvent the 38-56 Improved? That would interest me! Regards, Woody

[lar45]

Or mebe we could just reinvent the 38-56 Improved? That would interest me! Regards, Woody

That would be a worthwhile project. I like the idea of useing stock dies and reamers if possible. This could probably be done with a 375 H&H AI reamer run in part way, but you might have to bite the bullet on custom loading dies.

[45r]

the 35-30 sounds interesting.cheap brass and low recoil.wonder how much it would cost to have one in a marlin 336 done.wonder if a 35 Rem could be rechambered to 35-30.how fast does the 35-30 push 200 grain boolits.

[lar45]

The body of the 35 Rem case is larger than the 30-30 case.
Quickload shows the capacity of the 35 Rem at 51 gns H2O and the 35-30 at 50gns.
The neck of the 35/30-30 is longer so that might make it better for cast bullets.

COTW shows the 35-30 with a 200gn JSP @ 1925fps.

Maybe an option would be to rechamber a 35 Rem and to 356 Win? marlin did chamber the 356 in the 336 action. I don't know if they used better steel for it, or just the regular action. The 356 has the same rim diameter as the 30-30 which is larger than the 35 Rem. So if you started with a 35 Rem, would the bolt face need work for the larger Rim? I don't have a marlin so I don't know what they look like.
Nuemrich does have marlin 35 Rem barrels for $65ish. Maybe it would be easiest to have one of these rechambered to 356 and then swap onto a 30-30 gun?

The 356 has a case capacity of 55gns and can push a 200gn bullet to 2460fps.

Anybody know if they used a different frame for the 356 or 375 Guns?
Nuemrich does show 1 part number for frames in 30-30, 35, 44, 307 and 356.

[felix]

Capacity has to be governed by where the powder sits below the boolit. Are your sure that Quickload does this for the standard seating arrangement for the industry standard bullet (whatever that means)? If it were my program, I would do the capacity measurements (by override) using something like WC860 to the bottom of the straight portion of the neck. For example, the 30-30 case is a 36 grain capacity, 35 remmie is a 42 grainer. ... felix

[45r]

the 356 win sounds even more interesting.hope marlin brings one out in the new XLR stainless.200 grain boolits at 2450 fps sounds good to me.they seem to be sought after by marlin fans.my 357 CB is shooting half inch groups at 50 yards with my 185GC boolits and 1850 fps with 15.6 grains lil-gun,cci-550 primers and I'm a happy camper with that load.Deer within 100 yards will be in great danger of ending up in the freezer with that load.

[Boomer Mikey]

Another option is the Dan Wesson 360 Magnum... The case is 1.410" long and thicker. Most of the Puma 357's have long chambers and you could cut back the case to the actual chamber length. Starline has the brass in stock. No special dies or anything else.

From Handloads.com:

158gr XTP 15.0 gr True Blue 1,867 fps Rem 7 1/2 Dan Wesson. Suggested starting load: 13.5 gr
Dan Wesson Firearms model 7360, 10 inch barrel. Max OAL 1.760" Pressure: 39,425 PSI

158gr XTP 18.0 gr Enforcer 1,710 fps Rem 7 1/2 Dan Wesson. Suggested starting load: 16.2 gr
Dan Wesson Firearms model 7360, 10 inch barrel. Max OAL 1.760" Pressure: 34,500 PSI

158gr XTP 21.0 gr H110 1,698 fps Rem 7 1/2 Dan Wesson. Suggested starting load: 18.9 gr
Dan Wesson Firearms model 7360, 10 inch barrel. Max OAL 1.760" Pressure: 39,100 PSI

Sierra170gr JHC 19.5 gr H110 1,632 fps Rem 7 1/2 Dan Wesson Suggested starting load: 17.6 gr
Dan Wesson Firearms model 7360, 10 inch barrel. Max OAL 1.760" Pressure: 34,400 PSI

Those are some impressive numbers for a 10" revolver! (I own one of these)

My 357 Puma's will feed and chamber 1.650" COL.



As far as conversions go I think the 356 Winchester has the best combination of cost, die, reamer, case capacity, and factory brass availability.

I'm going to do one of these conversions this winter using a 357 magnum barrel re-chambered to what I call the 35-55 (actually the 35/30-30 with a 15 degree shoulder) on a 336 action. Like Felix, I like the tighter bore and faster 1:16 twist of the 357 barrel. I'm also going to do a Winchester M94 30-30 to 356 Winchester conversion too.

35 Remington chambers are too large for 35/30-30 or 356 Winchester conversions. 356 Winchester will come close but will not clean out the existing throat. That's why Mike Bellm re-chambers TC 35 Remington chambers to .358 Bellm (similar to 358JDJ). Be aware that these 35/444 variants are too long for the Marlin action with heavy bullets and this power level is beyond most cast bullet shooters level of interest as case capacity is excessive.


Boomer :Fire:

[45r]

I wonder if necking up the 308 marlin express to 357 would be worth the effort.That way you could have the bore and chamber made to a certain cast boolit design.I wonder if anyone has wildcatted the 308 marlin express yet.The way leverguns are regaining popularity I wouldn't be suprised to see something new in 35 cal. or the return of the 356 win by someone like marlin.One of the posters on the marlin site has a 356 win marlin that shot a half inch group at a hundred yards.They are hard to get without paying more than what new guns are going for.Seems like marlin would sell a bunch of them easily if they made a limited run of 356 win XLR's.How much does it cost to rechamber a barrel to a wildcat 35-55 or a 357 Marlin express.

[MT Gianni]

The 356 pushes the speer 180 grfn to 2700 fps with AA2015 powder. It is deadly on whitetail and antelope. Gianni

[lar45]

Neumrich has Win 94 BB barrels in 307, 356 and 375. The shanks are big enough that they could be turned down and rethreaded for the Marlin. The Marlins have a short hood? at the top of the breach end. Is it important to be there? The converted Win barrel wouldn't have it, but it would already be chambered.

The Win Big Bore barrel shanks are larger than the regular 94 so you can't just put one on.

Okay you Marlin guys, what is the extra nub on the barrel for?

[Boomer Mikey]

The picture in my avatar is a big bore 375 barrel turned down and re-threaded for the Winchester M94 30-30 receiver it's mounted on. 375 Winchester is an outstanding cartridge. I load it to 38-55 power levels (1600 - 1800 fps - 255 grain bullet) and very pleasant to shoot... my favorite carbine. This will dispatch anything in North America at 50 yards with 1600 ft. pounds of energy.

A 0.358" 180 grain @ 1800 fps would have 1/3 less energy at 1073 ft. pounds from a 20" carbine at 50 yards.

38-55 and 375 Winchester are far superior at moderate pressure levels to pushing the 357 magnum to its limits.

The 375 is very efficient with 25 - 28 grains of H4198. I would need 37 grains of H4895 or H335 to get the same levels of velocity/energy in the 356 Winchester with a 250 grain bullet. My data shows 2300 fps max with the 356 Winchester in a 20" barrel with a 250 grain bullet and I can reach that with the 38-55 as well.

I already have the big bore 356 Winchester barrel and another M94 30-30 receiver waiting for me to get going as well as the dies and cases but summer is too busy for me.

Marlin probably won't do anything in 35 besides the 35 Remington.


Boomer :Fire:

[yeahbub]

Lar45, I called Marlin about a model 375 a few years back, and the fellow said that they used a different heat treat regimen on rifles chambered in .375 Win. Something about long-term durability/resistance to stretching over the lifetime of the gun. I'd expect that would apply to other rounds of a higher intensity, like the .356 and .307 as well. As for the frame being dimensionally different, if memory serves, this is the case with the Cowboy series, where the front of the receiver is machined differently to accomodate the Cowboy hardware and octagonal barrel. I think the forearm on the ordinary 336 goes into a recess in the receiver and the Cowboys don't.

[lar45]

http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/shank-vs-01.jpg

The two barrels on the left are marlins (30-30) and the one on the right is a Win BB 375.

So what function does the extra numb on the barel serve?
It looks like it just might be to ensure good feeding? I guess I'll just have to buy one and take it apart.

[357maximum]

http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/shank-vs-01.jpg

So what function does the extra numb on the barel serve?
It looks like it just might be to ensure good feeding? I guess I'll just have to buy one and take it apart.


All you have to do is a drop a round into the open ejection port, and cycle briskly, and you will see why it is there. It does not get "hit" when fed drom the mag so much, but single loaded rounds cycled briskly sure seem to like it being there.

Glenn do both them marlin barrels have a different thread or is it an optical illusion conclusion? The nub on the right barrel looks like the one on my 1953 35 remmy cut rifled barrel, the one on the left looks like the one on my mid 80's 30-30, I am wondering if the threads were changed at somepoint is all.