blackpowder expectations

[bigted]

dont know why but feel like runnin this up the flagpole again...maybe cabin fever....maybe just fever...well here goes and no offense meant at all!!!:drinks:

i have never gotten the same exelent accuracy from my bp powered rifles as i do when i load em [same rifles] with smokeless powder. there is the crux of the question...now i do get it...the historic factor is what it is and i enjoy this secter of loading bp in my rifles and dont intend on stopping BUT...i dont understand why the accuracy is just not there like with the smokeless powder...ive had it explained but somehow it escapes my understanding...all my rifles perform better with smokless powder including my shiloh 45-120. much to my chagrin i reluctanatly admit this as maybe im missing something. just about the time i get comfy with my bp accuracy i try it again with smokless and it outperforms the bp in the same rifle and with the same type projectile.

may be just dense and ill let it pass if i get called this but i really seek understanding and if maybe i expect too much outta my bp loadings when i go shooting paper targets.

does not seem to matter what i load...greesers or paperpatched the results are the same tho i use different diameters with each type powder.

well there ya have it...im not looking to be rescued from smokeless nor to be encouraged on blackpowder ...just seeking facts please so as to rest in my quest for maybe un-obtainable results...1 1/2 MOA is the best i can muster on a great day but mostly 2 + MOA are more likely with bp and i always equal or better this with smokless....HMMMMMMM

thanks for the extra kind words coming and the hidden feelings i know will be kept in tow...LOL...:roll:...:mrgreen:

[Don McDowell]

I'ld guess you just haven't found "the" load with your bp yet.

[nhrifle]

What is your loading procedure? What components are you using (powder granulation, primer, boolit, what all's in there??)

[Chill Wills]

TED, This is hard to know why in your case. If I could watch you load and could see your bullets and watch you cast and check out your rifles ...Check them out in person, maybe I would have something to offer.

I have to admit, I never tried to ring out the last drop of accuracy from the same BPCR rifle with both smokeless and black. To the extent I have with two rifles I have had about equal accuracy. So I really do not know what my BPCR targets rifles could do with the smoke free powder if I really tried, but I do know I have not been able to shoot great groups with just any BP. Swiss is for sure the go to choice and for me it is cheaper to shoot Swiss brand powder than any other brand because of the ease of work-up. I do not have to burn half a case to find a great load. Consider just the casting and loading time and amount of lead used! Now that's expensive!

For accuracy, Powder choice and primers choice have to be right to get anywhere. Then you need to know something about assembling everything to fit the rifle your using. A mentor helps and these forums have been a real information source. Not always a good source. As it should be, anyone can post. The reader decides.

I think in an any-any match, that is any rifle, any powder assuming plain base cast bullets - think Scheutzen rifles here, the smokeless will win out most days. But not by much and NOT by the spreads you are talking about.

Two very capable Schuetzen rifleman friends, Jack Odor and Steve Garbe had planed to answer that debate with a one on one match last year. One using (yup) smokeless and the other Black Powder. Really would not prove much because it would be a case of one data point but would give bragging rights and an excuse to match them together. The match did not get contested nor did either rifleman even decide whom would get to shoot black. Maybe this year....

That aside, it is clear from the bazillions of great targets made with BP in the last 150 years that the stuff can be made to shoot.

Like a dope, I am up too late, in a motel room in Moab, Utah typing this, on the way to Phoenix to put on a Creedmoor match, The American Creedmoor Cup. I would guess that most of those rifles, all shooting Black, will produce 1.5 moa groups or less in no wind conditions. Gobs of Swiss powder up in smoke there!

Enough.......:drinks:

[nwellons]

Do you chronograph your loads?

[Mike Brooks]

My BPCR's shot like **** until I learned how to load them. Lots of trial and error and good suggestions from this board. Don McDowell is my hero!

[Boz330]

Just guessing here but the difference in fouling between smokeless and black could be an issue unless you are cleaning after each shot.
I'm with Chill on the Swiss being easier to work a load up for which is why I like it. I would like to find a load for a cheaper powder since it seems that Swiss just keeps going up.
I pretty much shoot for a 2 MOA load since that works OK for Silhouette shooting. Besides my eyes and hold are probably closer to 3 MOA, and until I retire, time is somewhat limited. More than once my testing coincided with a match, not the best way to do it.
I have tried smokeless in my 85 and 75 C-Sharps guns and accuracy was pretty close to the same. I didn't try to wring at the last smidgeon of accuracy but it seemed to be easier to get the smokeless to shoot. You would think that since you only have one powder to work with in BP that development would be easy but it isn't. Wad stacks, compression, granulation, primers/primer wads, cartridge length, boolit length,etc,etc,etc and the combinations all can make a difference.
I took a wad combination that Kenny Wasserburger uses in his 45-110 and tried it in my 40-65 and shot one of the best matches I've ever shot. To this day I don't know why he came up with that combination or why it would work in 2 rifles so far apart. It is a combination that I would have never come up with in a million years.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

There is so many variables in a blackpowder load that it's hard to put your finger on just one thing. Powder can be the difference altho it's not always the answer, heck even the old Elephant that shot so filthy dirty you could hardly see down the bore could be made to shoot excellent groups.
Bullet lube can make a huge difference in group sizes, that's been a bit of common knowledge that's been around forever that alot of us did not ever know without reading about it thru old writings such as Ned Roberts etc, or by trial and error on our own.
Same for wiping between shots , or blow tubing. I'll bet more barn burner loads have been left to the scrap heap on account of a wiping routine/solution that wasnt quite right than any other cause. Blowtubing can make or break a load, I see alot of folks using the blowtube for something more akin to a pacifier than a tool to help manage the fouling in their rifle and maintain accuracy.
Primers can and do make a difference.
Temp, humidity, wind, mirage and light can all make a big difference.
I can also say with definity, that if a person ever gets a chance to shoot amongst the real riflemen of our time such as Chill , Kenny , Odor, Youngberg, Terry and the list gets long, but by all means don't pass it up. These guys are a real credit to the ages and the sport, and one can learn alot just by listening and watching them on the line.
And last but not least it takes a huge amount of concentration to stay on track with the targets, trigger squezze etc, to maintain high levels of accuracy, and I'll bet alot of the problems folks run into with bp loads, they maybe getting subconsiecely distracted looking for the smoke and fire, I see alot of folks that come off of the stock to quick trying to see over the smoke rather than staying with the gun and wait till everything quiets down before worrying about the bullet strike, that's not a problem that will rear it's head with smokeless.

[oldred]

I'll bet alot of the problems folks run into with bp loads, they maybe getting subconsiecely distracted looking for the smoke and fire, I see alot of folks that come off of the stock to quick trying to see over the smoke rather than staying with the gun and wait till everything quiets down before worrying about the bullet strike, that's not a problem that will rear it's head with smokeless.


That's something I had noticed but that's the first time I have seen it mentioned. When I first started loading BP (which was not a long time ago) I quickly discovered that accuracy was much worse when shooting BP off-hand than with smokeless but when shooting from a rest the difference was not nearly so bad between BP and smokeless. Once I realized I needed to "follow through" by keeping my concentration on the target and ignoring muzzle blast and smoke the improvement was quite noticeable. At this point I still get my best groups with smokeless loads but I write that off to inexperience using BP and my BP loads are definitely improving as I have been using different loading techniques, most notable being the use of a drop tube and more consistent compression.

[bigted]

i really think it has to do mostly with two considerations and i base this on my groups...my lube and my fouling control.

i have been on a quest to find a load that would give me accuracy without the fouling control. i desire to be able to shoot my rifles in a fasion like unto smokless shooting in a hunting situation...such as 10 shots in a row that will load and shoot accuratly without scrubbing the bore between shots. i have done well when i swab between shots at the range...around 1.5 moa and sometimes closer with carefull attention to my shooting procedure.

my repeatable shooting has been due to;;;drop tube the 68 or 70 grain charge of GOEX cartridge powder...install a wax paper disc over powder followed by the compression [ussually around .200 inch compression] ... install the lube cookie [1/3rd bee wax 1/3rd crisco 1/3re peenutoil] in a 1/4 inch thickness...install the .060 walters wad over cookie wad...install the boolit [ussually a baco .460 inch 509 grain gubbermint style] into the case with the frist band touching the rifling begining....this is a good load for my browning bpcr 45-70 in that i can shoot many shots but they hover into around 3 moa at 100 yds. when i swab this load it stutters down to 1.2 to 1.5 inch groups at the same 100 yds but i hate the swabbing between shots.

my paperpatch loads follow the same procedure except that i begin with a .444 inch boolit slick from baco in 550 grain weight and the results are pretty close to the same.

my lever loads are close to the same with the exception of a 430 grain lyman 457643 boolit lubed with the same lube and a cookie as well of the same lube with 70 grains cartridge. these shoot alrite for hunting style shooting.

the same rifles do better with my 42 to 53 grains of 3031 powder and the same boolits except that the paperpatch boolits start out at .452 inch before patching and the lube is the same for all. my 43 spanish will NOT group with bp and i consider that it is due to the rough first 8 inchs of barrel...takes a long time to clean too...BUT...the same boolits in the 43 do VERY well with AA5744 in doses of 22 to 28 grains + filler of cornmeal... depending on boolit weight.

it stikes me as maybe my powder may have something to do with all this [it has lived outside in a weathertight cooler for years] and to get another batch of powder is very VERY expensive here in Alaska...not impossible to get...just costly. so i do have a few things to consider but wanted to get words of wisdom from other fellers that i know are doing well with the bp loads.

i dont read about the ol buff hunters doing any swabbing of barrels till they couldnt chamber another round ... so ive tryed to emulate their business but either i expect too much or they didnt do all that well in the MOA accuracy dept.

[oldred]

MOA when target shooting is a lot more important than minute of buffalo when hide hunting! :mrgreen:

[John Boy]

i have never gotten the same exelent accuracy from my bp powered rifles as i do when i load em [same rifles] with smokeless powder. Ted, really sorry that your BP reloads are not up to par with your smokeless. I don't shoot much smokeless but here are some BP targets, 38-55 and 45-70 - all with vernier sights:
38-55: http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13911

45-70: 14 out of 25 in the ragged hole:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/LymanPostell100Yds.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Ted it is a rare exception to get target accuracy without fouling control, always has been always will be. Even the Sharps and Remington catalogs from the 1870's tell us for the best in accuracy we need to leave out the grease cookie and swab between shots.
After reading your grease cookie and wad stack I have a suggestion, try going with 50-50 beeswax and vaseline for your lube/grease cookie, put the .060 fiber wad on the powder and the wax paper wad under the bullet. You might also want to try some felt wads soaked in your lube in place of the grease cookie.
Also keep in mind that smokeless loads most generally develop about 1/3 or more again pressure than does blackpowder. While Cartridge is a grand powder for most things and very accurate it also burns a bit slow and does not generate the pressure some other blackpowders do and thereby also fouls a bit heavier. My 44-77 will group well with Cartridge, but the same charge weight of KIK 1.5 will shoot about 50 fps faster and leave quite a bit less fouling, so much so that it's almost like having shot 5744 when I look down the barrel.

[kartooo]

fouling !!!!
many yrs ago i took a whole lot of 1st place ribbons and trophy's at black powder shoots.
i always used single shot handguns and rifles, and i always cleaned between shots.
the handgun events were just that handgun, didn't matter whether it was revolver or single shot.
we had 15 minutes to do our 5 shot group. if we didn't like out score we could do it over for a fee.
i had a lyman great plains .54 cal single shot gun i built from a kit that was really in expensive at the time. i was going up against guys with their stainless $300 + ruger revolvers. i truly believe the fouling after every shot without cleaning caused a big inconsistancy. they would do over their score many times and could not come close to mine !! that .54 shot a meatball of a round ball that left a big enough hole on the target you could see at 25yds too. swaping has a dual pupose,consistancy between shots and putting out any glowing embers that can cause a huge proplem when you pour your next batch of powder down the barrel.

[Boz330]

Goex isn't the cleanest BP. With Swiss in my 38-55 I can shoot 10 rounds with hunting accuracy. This is with a greaser and NASA lube.

Not purist but have you considered a duplex load. Before I became a purist I shot those for a hunting load and it worked quite well and that was with Goex. I literally shot 40 to 50 rounds without any sort of cleaning or blow tubing.

Bob

[.22-10-45]

Hello, bigted. Back in the early 1970's thru early 90's, I shot alot of black powder..both M.L. & in a Win. High Wall .38-55..competed in matches with the Win. Then I read where the quality of the blackpowder in the late 19th century was much better..cleaner burning, etc. than the then available Goex...and I began to become discouraged. You see, I had started out with smokeless loads in that rifle..and it would put them into 1" or less at 100yds with the Mike Stevens Mid Range Soule & globe front.
I was able to fully equal this same accuracy using Goex 3FG ...However..a strict cleaning routine had to be followed...No one I was shooting with in those days used..or even knew about blow-tubes.
What worked for me was to run a wet patch thru after every 3 shots..also after each shot, I used a short rod with damp wool bore mop & twisted in throat..this old rifle has a bit of roughness right in front of chamber..and this probably trapped excess fouling.
By maintaing this cleaning..I was able to achieve match winning accuracy. But I started to realize..in a match, all we were really doing was determining who could clean the most consistantly..instead of being able to concentrate strictly on shooting..as with smokeless shooting. Then too, after that 3 shot cleaning..I had to fire 1 fouler..then remember to include that in the 3 shot limit..things got to be confusing when trying to remember how many shots were on a target!
Finally I had enough..and I quit black powder..for nearly 20 years.
Then I purchased two rifles that I had no other choice but to use the Holy Black..an original Ballard No.3..originally a .22 rimfire, rebored and chamberd in distant past by a fine smith to .25-25 Stevens. This has the so-called cast-iron action..whether an early form of cast steel..or iron..I will use only black in it.
The other is an original Remington Mid-Range in .40-70 str. I just feel safer using black in it..and besides, around this time I was beginning to hear good things about a new Swiss black powder.
I purchased 3FG for the .25 & 1 1/2FG for the .40.
Using RMC brass and original Ideal moulds to cast 100gr. bullets (twist is 1-12"), I was able to achieve 3/8" groups at 50yds. with the mid-range vernier tang & globe front. A blow tube will give a bit under 1"..good for hunting use, but for match accuracy, 1 barely damp patch is run thru after each shot. I haven't yet tried it at longer range. This one took a bit of work to get that kind of accuracy..ammunition is fixed, using old nickled Ideal No.3 tong tool.
Before taking the Remington out, I fully expected to have to clean..at least to run damp patch thru after each shot for the kind of match accuracy I was looking for..and so brought along both long rods & a short one for chamber..like the old Winchester needed...But I also brought along a blow tube I made up.
I decided to use blow tube first..just to see how bad fouling would be.. blowing 3 long breaths after each shot..accuracy was hovering around 1" after 5 shots!..Now I don't know about other folks..but this quick successs just doesn't happen to me this easy! I never did get around to swabbing after each shot..wasn't needed.
Perhaps my success was due to pristine bores on each of these rifles? or to the cleaner burning Swiss black? I don't know for sure..might have to get that old Winchester dirty again just to find out!
One thing I do know..I'm solidly hooked again on the Holy Black!

[bigted]

Don...ill try the switch-up of my wad stack and also make up some vasoline/bee wax lube to try....wowww that clean with the KIK ??

Boz...i do use duplex in my 45-70's and 45-120 as well as my 38-55...today i gave the 43 a try with 5 grains 4227 followed with 65 grains cartridge but this ol rascal just hates bp so far...the 45's and 38 do well with duplex but i really wanted to do it with pure bp...may have to backtrack to my duplex and see what happens when i shoot it/them for paper accuracy...i also have gotten 20 plus rounds with hunting like accuracy with the duplex and when/if i go hunting with bp...that WILL be the style i use both for repeat shots and cleanliness .

22-10-45...just wish it werent so expensive to try out other powders here in north wonderland. id love to try the KIK as well as the SWISS powders. the shipping here is what kills the fun of getting other powders. i have a feller that deals GOEX but is un-willing to entertain the thought of other powders so guess ill just have to buy some 1f and 2f and 3f powders from him and see if it may be my powder that is giving me fits.

guess i do have some options to try here and i thankyou all for the ideas. i been very anal about my loading and the procedure as well as the testing of 1 thing at a time but the thing that has remained the same thru all this is ...1-powder...2-lube...3-fouling control.

guess i will switchup these with different possibilitys to find my groovy spot for the magic sweet spot.

[Don McDowell]

Primers, don't forget the primers, the oft recommended magnum rifle primer seems to for what ever reason make the fouling a bit drier and harder and may cause more accuracy problems than it solves.
Br-2 and large pistol primers are usually involved in the really good groups.

[joec]

I have a feeling you aren't using enough powder if using 70 gr in a 45-120 since that is what I shoot in my 45-70 with a 405 gr bullet. According to Lymans Black Powder manual it should be 105 gr of Goex FFg with a 500 gr bullet. I would also suggest Swiss or KIK over the Goex as both are cleaner though Swiss is the cleanest.

[bigted]

joec...went back and read my posts to be sure i didnt mis-print any info and cant figure how you got the idea that my 120 gets only 70 grains of powder...i think that 100 grains is the lowest ive ever loaded that rifle and ussually im closer to the 120 grains with a 500+ grain boolit.srry to have mislead you with that as i did learn a bit ago to not light load with bp in anything as the fouling really does kick up its heels with lower then called for charges.

also my loads consist of cci 200 large rifle primers..got there with copious different primers trying to get the rite combo. its a tossup between the cci and federal primers as to which do the best...all comes down for me in cost...my drawer for primers has cci,,federal,,,winchester,,,remington primers in all configurations. i tryed the magnum primers and didnt see any bright sky with them so went back to LR primers. i even tryed the small sheets of over primer wads to distribute the flame but didnt see any big diff there either.

ill be at the mine for the next few weeks so will be sketchy getting here but keep em coming as the thoughts come to mind as im the student and im listening carefully.

[johnson1942]

just try a single felt wad behind the bullet and see if things improve. this has done the trick for some big time shooters ive talked to.

[bigted]

so i bought some .380 inch 275 grain boolits from baco that were lubed with SPG. have had em for a bit so i figured why not load a few to try thru my browning custom 38-55. load were such;

baco .380 inch 275 grain flat points
cci 200 large rifle primers
52 grains GOEX cartridge powder
.060 walters vegi wad
2.118 inch long starline cases
finger seated boolits over compressed powder of .450 inch with a compression tool from baco,,straightened flair with the size die,,crimp with a lee factory crimper,,used a blow tube i recently made from an old case and some clear tubing.

shooting went like such;

loaded 1 and shot,,blow tube with the rifle with muzzle down with 4 long breaths,,loaded 1 and ect ect for 5 shots...coulda pushed me over with a feather. all 5 in the same hole with a group at my short 35 yards to be covered with a dime. wowwwww!!!!

best ive EVER done with bp. NO cookies...NO lube wads ...NO felt wads...NO swabing...,,,...when i cleaned my rifle i was in for another shock...hardly ANY fouling at all. the first patch with ballistol mix came out pretty clean [much cleaner then any before in any calibre] and the second cleaned the remainder completely...oiled and away.

so two things happened here as i can see that ive never done before...1- use of SPG lube...2- use a blow tube with the muzzle pointed down so all the moisture went into the barrel from my lungs.

im so happy...im hoping that it wernt a fluke and that i can repeat this performance...i also see that the rifle range is open again from winter so ill give the 100 yd line a big ol try with this sweet shooting rifle. ive done this good with smokless powder before but NEVER EVER with blackpowder...and loading was so simple and straight forward...no drop tube...no cookies...no mess with the felt lubed wads...just load em and shoot em...who woulda ever thunk it?

[Don McDowell]

[smilie=1: See there, that nasty ol blackpowder can shoot with smokeless.:brokenima

[semtav]

bigted

I had just the opposite experience as you. I could get good accuracy on paper with the smokeless, but it wasn't consistant. When I switched to BP, and took the time to work up a good load it was night and day difference. But I only worked with my lightest cartridge (40-65) till i had it right. --Load, shooting and fouling control--- only then did I move on to the next gun. ( and in hindsight, I should have spent another year with the 40-65 before I went on.) I can't count the number of rounds I shot just to see if one little thing would improve the load. Bp does take a lot more work to get perfect. Not only do you need good fouling control, but you need good fouling control technique too.
Only when the wheels fell off my shooting and fouling control technique did BP loose its accuracy, and the only thing I found to match it is BH-209.

[bigted]

i cant say how much powder and lead ive shot in the last three years trying to get this bp to shoot with smokless but its been a bunch. i did try the blowtube early in my travel but somehow it didnt work at all so i took up swabbing to control fouling...got tired of that so set about trying to find a way to shoot bp without any fouling control. this took me to paperpatching and cookies and felt lubed wads and on n on n on...i have found a few ways to have hunting style accuracy but the final accuracy has always eluded me. when the frustration got the better of me i simply went to the old standby in smokless to reassure myself that i could really even shoot anymore.

goes to show that the simple things are king most of the time. i have much road to travel but now im encouraged...specially if i can repeat my performance from today with a repeat event...got em loaded and plan to visit the range tomarrow if things go rite...will see

thanks for all the ideas and encouragment fella's... my loading room is pleasantly smelling like burned bp now and i just smile when i smell it...now even more.

[Boz330]

Not to discourage you but what shoots good on one outing doesn't necessarily do it the next time out. It is definitely on the right track though. And what works for one gun doesn't necessarily work for the next one. The 38-55 is known for it's accuracy and you aren't burning those huge amounts of powder either.
I actually had a pretty easy time getting my 38-55 to shoot well. I'm using Swiss and compressing it .500. I did shoot some smokeless in it a couple times and it shot well with it as well.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Ted you'ld be surprised at how well just blowing down the barrel from the muzzle works (like folks do with a muzzle loader) altho I don't know if doing that at a match or other gathering of folks, might not get a small tempest started..:brokenima

[Boz330]

Ted you'ld be surprised at how well just blowing down the barrel from the muzzle works (like folks do with a muzzle loader) altho I don't know if doing that at a match or other gathering of folks, might not get a small tempest started..:brokenima

Without a doubt!:bigsmyl2:

Bob

[bigted]

i do this consistantly with my muzzleloader but didnt get satasfactory results with my first use of the blow tube on the cartridge rifles...dont know unless it were becouse i didnt hold the barrel in the downward position so as to have all the moisture go with gravity 'down' the barrel such as happens with a muzzleloader.

between these two things...blowtube "DOWN" the barrel and using SPG lube ...im hoping that im on the rite track.

had i been a few decades younger i might have done the blowing down from the muzzle at the range just to see what folks would do or say but...these years have mellowed me enough that just the thought is enough to provide a smile. would make a stir tho im bettin.:lol:

[MT Chambers]

My experience has been much different then the original poster, with the big old cartridges 45/70 or bigger, BP fills the case and good accuracy follows.(with some playing around). In my 45/70s, 45/100 and 50/90 accuracy is tops with BP, I'm also not happy with these large cases only half full of smokeless or fillers or even wads to hold powder down near the primer.

[RMulhern]

Anyone with one eye and half a brain that has been into the smokeless world for a number of years knows that smokeless rifle cartridges perform best for accuracy when the case is loaded with a dense charge! What's a dense charge? Contrary to the opinion of many...this is not a charge near maximum pressure but one whereby with appropriate powder choice that gives a full case with the powder at the level of the bullet base. I've tried in the past several powders in my old 30/06 match rifle that only filled the case about half way and these were not reliable because they gave what I call 'spitz-bangs' which is characterized by an initial small recoil followed by a larger recoil. Accuracy was excellent for hitting.....DUE EAST! I fail to see whereby loading SP into a large case designed for BP can be conducive to good performance WITHOUT using some form of 'packing' to keep the powder adjacent to the primer!

Now...you can proceed to tell me that you've been using SP in these large cases designed for BP for years without any trouble and that they give 1/2 MOA accuracy! Fine! You stick with your SP and I'll stick with BP!!:lol:[smilie=1:

[oldred]

But several smokeless powders that yield excellent results also fill these cases to the bullet base, for example Varget and H4895 in a 45/70 can be used at loads that are actually compressed while still at relatively low pressures. While I do enjoy shooting BP in my 45/90 I also loading 4064 in that case which fills it nearly to the base of the bullet at BP pressures. Half empty cases when using smokeless are not always necessary, just a matter of which powder is chosen.

[bigted]

i also agree Rick...my smokless charges almost always dont fill the case but i ALWAYS use c/m to fill enough to provide that slight compression.

however that is NOT the cunundrem here! the problem ive had IS trying to get the same or better accuracy with my BP loads. think i may actually be on the rite track tho and im happy with my recent endeavers...thanks to the graciouse advise from fellers here.

ALSO...i did read Ricks "GHOST IN THE DARK" post and i have to say that i probably have some to learn about my shooting procedures as i DO qualify with the success with 'smokless' loads in 'smokless' chamberings with 'jaxeted' boolits so yes i do have to watch my follow thru and hold as well as my sight picture follow thru. so i do have a lot of ground to cover and im having a ball traveling thru all the mistakes which makes my advanses so satisfying to achieve.

and i THINKS that i DO have one eye AND 1/2 a brain.......maybe .......[smilie=1:...:drinks:

[oldred]

The thing is smokeless does work ok but it just ain't half as much fun!!!! :mrgreen:

[TerryH]

Gents,

I often see all sorts of scrubbing and poking going on with BPCR's which looks like a lot of effort. I'm in the SPG and blow tube camp, which has and does work for me in Texas, Quantaco and now the UK.

I'm using standard grooved boolits, nothing special with the reloading, fibre or HDPE over wad, no grease cookies just what's on the bullet. Seems to work:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/thibben/Axtel%20Sharps%2077/Sharps771.jpg

Another thing that comes into to play personnaly is the (British) NRA back in the days of military use of BPCR's banned wiping so that the civilian shooters developed loads not requiring such, as a soldier could not wipe on the battle field i.e. the military benifited from free R&D. (NB when the British military do that in modern times they end up with the best SWS in the World the AI, when they don't they end up with the SA 80 go figure? :) )

Brgds Terry

[Don McDowell]

I think the bigger reason behind the Brits outlawing wiping in a match , was to try and stop the Americans from kickin their butts. The Americans with the Sharps and Remington rifles loaded with patched bullet wiped between shots with their target loads. The Brits and their muzzleloaders thought this to be an upperhand, and wouldn't concede that by proxy they were wiping the bore by using the tight fitting bullets and false muzzles to load their muzzleloaders.
Fouling control no matter how you get it done is needed to maintain accuracy.

[montana_charlie]

i also agree Rick...my smokless charges almost always dont fill the case but i ALWAYS use c/m to fill enough to provide that slight compression.
I really hate to ask a smokeless question on this blackpowder forum, but ...
Since that filler will change the 'volume' of the case, isn't that a dangerous practice with smokeless powders?

CM

[45 2.1]

[smilie=1: See there, that nasty ol blackpowder can shoot with smokeless.:brokenima

Actually Don, some of those smokeless loads in 38-55 single shot rifles can do what he did at three times that distance. I saw that done at a registered CBA match a long time ago.


I really hate to ask a smokeless question on this blackpowder forum, but ... Since that filler will change the 'volume' of the case, isn't that a dangerous practice with smokeless powders? CM

Not really in a straight case of that size.............

[Don McDowell]

Yup 452.1 and I've seen blackpowder loads that would shoot circles around the smokeless loads at 1000 yds.Myself I had 38-55 loads with both powders that would shoot equally well. It's also a long established fact that back in the hayday of the target matches before short distances, smokeless and jacketed became the norm, blackpowder loaded 38-55 was the cartridge to beat in the midrange matches.
It's all in what the shooter puts into load developement, and how well they get their load to working with what ever powder they choose. As much as I truly enjoy blackpowder shooting , it's still necessary to admit the stuff went obscolete a hundred years ago for some reason.
.

[RMulhern]

Gents,

I often see all sorts of scrubbing and poking going on with BPCR's which looks like a lot of effort. I'm in the SPG and blow tube camp, which has and does work for me in Texas, Quantaco and now the UK.

I'm using standard grooved boolits, nothing special with the reloading, fibre or HDPE over wad, no grease cookies just what's on the bullet. Seems to work:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/thibben/Axtel%20Sharps%2077/Sharps771.jpg

Another thing that comes into to play personnaly is the (British) NRA back in the days of military use of BPCR's banned wiping so that the civilian shooters developed loads not requiring such, as a soldier could not wipe on the battle field i.e. the military benifited from free R&D. (NB when the British military do that in modern times they end up with the best SWS in the World the AI, when they don't they end up with the SA 80 go figure? :) )

Brgds Terry

But But Terry........ahhhh.....those ain't in the middle!!:smile:;-)

[oldred]

the stuff went obscolete a hundred years ago for some reason.


Maybe folks just didn't shoot as much for fun back then? BP has got to be the most fun shooting I have ever done and this is coming from someone (me!) who only a couple of years ago said he would not bother with it in his cartridge rifles! I had nothing against it I just didn't see the "why should I", but since I had real BP on hand for my Muzzle loaders I decided to load up a few rounds and give it a try, I learned a new "funner" way to shoot. :-) I still shoot smokeless too but my Highwall is also seeing a lot more BP these days and now my son and one of his friends are talking about getting into the sport, this is/was two dedicated "Black rifle" guys who are now getting hooked on the smoke, pomp and surprisingly good accuracy of these old style rifles and rounds.

[bigted]

Gents,

I often see all sorts of scrubbing and poking going on with BPCR's which looks like a lot of effort. I'm in the SPG and blow tube camp, which has and does work for me in Texas, Quantaco and now the UK.

I'm using standard grooved boolits, nothing special with the reloading, fibre or HDPE over wad, no grease cookies just what's on the bullet. Seems to work:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/thibben/Axtel%20Sharps%2077/Sharps771.jpg

Another thing that comes into to play personnaly is the (British) NRA back in the days of military use of BPCR's banned wiping so that the civilian shooters developed loads not requiring such, as a soldier could not wipe on the battle field i.e. the military benifited from free R&D. (NB when the British military do that in modern times they end up with the best SWS in the World the AI, when they don't they end up with the SA 80 go figure? :) )

Brgds Terry

ok I gotta ask about the rifle in this photo. id like to see the whole rifle [sharps 1877 isn't it?] and hear the particulars on barrel,,twist,,make,,model,,barrel length...so-n-so-forth...THANKS!

[Nobade]

Yep, that's a pretty sexy rifle. Is it one of Carmen Axtell's?

I am also impressed you can get those needle nose boolits to shoot like that!

-Nobade

[bigted]

my last communication with Shiloh tells of a coming 77 from them so was curious.

[ken s]

50 90 Shilo sharps, 1 inch groups at 100 consistantly...her goes...
Swiss 1 1/2, 82 grains drop tubed, card wad compressed with compression die. (a must and ez to use), TWO newspaper wads on top of the card wad. ( this prevents the card wad from riding the bullet down range and killing all accuracy.) 500 grain cast lead 1/20 bullet. spg lube by hand, no sizing. (I weigh the cast bullets and put them in three groups. + or - a few grains. you'll see one or two that are way out, and these are you 'flyers' if you shoot them) re cast those every time.
BLOW TUBE, three breaths between shots.
you'll get 1 to 1/14 inch groups every time if you do your job.
luck...Ken

[bigted]

boy this simple loading is panning out. in my browning 45-70 BPCR my boolits from #460500 BACO mould [which throws a 510 grain gubberment like boolit] loaded ahead of 70 grains cartridge and having a simple .060 wad between it and the powder will...when I use the 5 or 6 long breaths from the blowtube and the newly acquired SPG lube...flow 5 into a raged hole at 50 yds. im just amazed at the simplicity of this bp loading and shooting. cant wait to get this and my 38-55 hiwall to the range to see what they will do at 1,,2 and 3 hundred yards.

the other thing that just flabbergasts me is that the fouling that used to choke a horse is nice and soft [as well as slight in amount] in the rifle and cleans out very easy and without the swearing and wondering what the heck I did wrong. im always confused about the why in what I do when it seems like I beat my thick head against a pole repeatedly till bloody and hurting I return to the simple things and everything works out well.

still have a bit of trouble with the ol marlin but my singleshots are coming around nicely....good tho that I have something in the stable that keeps me grounded in reality that I still have the capability to have my @$$ handed to me in a hurry...keeps me humble I spose...baaa!!!

[bigted]

so tested the waters today and have come to an understanding that should have rung true into my fog bank of a brain several years ago;

took my 45-120 and loaded it with the .460 gubbermint boolits lubed with my new shipment of SPG lube shoved down the road with 110 grains cartridge powder..."no blow tube"... but with the bee wax/vasoline 50/50 for a .165 inch cookie.

took the rolling block 43 Spanish and loaded it with the 406 grain accurate moulds boolits of .452 inch and humped down the road with 75 grains cartridge and lubed with the SPG...blow tube.

drug out the 38-55 hiwall and loaded it with the 270 grain baco moulds boolits and lubed em with the SPG lube and shoved out the barrel with 45 grains cartridge ...blow tube.

lastly the uberti 45-70 loaded with jacketed for the test... ahead of 70 grains cartridge with a felt wad...no blow tube.

results were phenominal...all rounds went into tiny little groups here in the yard. ALL rounds from ALL rifles in their own group were tiny!!! the difference you ask???

--SPG--

so after all these years of thinking I had one of the best lubes going I find out that it are crapolla! what a freakin dink huh? im sooo happy to be able to report that my problems have been lube lube lube.

im so relieved to find this "SECRET" that has been promoted so openly and here I sat with stars in my eyes figuring I had it goin on what with makin my own lube...casting my own boolits...rollin paperpatch myself...makin my own cookies outta the foul lube I thought I had a handle on. upon further thought and ponderance ...I see why my lube didn't hardly make the grade...all that was lubing was 1/3rd Crisco and 1/3rd peanut oil and held together...almost ...with bee wax.

I told everybody that id do a jig when I finally found the combo that would yield me some real accuracy...well guess what I did this afternoon??? I stumbled thru my own jig that I am happy to say that the only ones to see it were the grand babys...poor kids will prolly take that remarkable event to their graves.:lol:

so id like to say that I could fault somebody for my neglect and stubbornness but I gots nobody but me to blame and every body here to thank for bearing with me thru maybe one of the most dense students alive.

[Ramar]

bigted, good for you! Now to get some really small groups!
Ramar