So maybe I ain't crazy.....

[tek4260]

When it comes to 44 magnum loads. Most books show 21-22gr max loads with H110 for 300gr bullets. When I listed my loads, which are more in line with this, folks acted like I was crazy/stupid. Well I finally found it in print, from 2005 Guns and Ammo.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/1362445228_zps852af4af.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/1362445319_zps212776f2.jpg

He was talking about working up a load behind the then new Belt Mountain Punch bullet. It is like the Lee and the Mihec in that it has 2 crimp grooves, allowing a longer OAL for revolvers like Rugers.

[rintinglen]

The internet ain't the only place you can get stupid loading information.
Hogdon lists 22.0 grains as top end for a 330 grain Boolit and 38,000 CUP.
Lee lists 19.0 grains top end with the Hornady 300 grain XTP with 38,800 CUP.
Speer listed 24.4 grains as max with a 240 grain JSP.
Lyman lists a top load of19.5 grains H110 for the Lee 310 grain RF. It was loaded to a COAL of 1.71 inches and still ran to 38,200 CUP. The load the author listed, assuming it is not a misprint, is way higher. I'm guessing it is in the neighborhood of 55,000 CUP, 20% over the old SAAMI limit of 45,000. Your money, your gun, your eyes and hands.
I won't call you crazy. Just ill-informed.

[TXGunNut]

I start losing accuracy (and interest!) in 45 Colt loads when I approach max RBH loads under a 300gr Hornady XTP. I know the 44mag often seems happiest with max or near max loads but I fail to see the benefit of pushing so far past accepted max loads. I also avoid posting max or near-max loads. Some folks refuse to believe that they MUST be approached with caution, without exception. I don't want my post to be the reason someone damages a gun or hurts himself or someone else.

[44man]

Some of those loads from gun rags are crazy. Who in their right mind would load 25 gr behind a 300 gr boolit in the .44? Jacketed takes LESS powder then I ever use with cast. A Hornady 300 gr XTP is best with 20.5 gr of 296. The 300 to 320 gr cast uses 21.5 gr and the 330 uses 21 gr of 296. The 265 RD needs 22 gr. And I use a standard primer, Fed 150.
Loads were worked for pure accuracy ONLY, any small increase will open groups and any increase only results in a tiny velocity increase anyway.
Some bullets will increase pressure and even the 240 gr works best from 23 to 23.5 gr of 296 and a standard primer. Some like 24 gr.
I do not fear listing my Ruger loads because they are under max for large frame guns. They are the most accurate.
You gain NOTHING using more powder, the loss of accuracy and also penetration suffers.
Using those large loads with a mag primer is even worse.

[tek4260]

I suppose the moral of the story is that max loads with H110 and strong guns is based on case capacity with the seating depth of the bullet being the deciding factor. Most "book" max 300gr loads are based on jacketed bullets that must be loaded to a depth where the OAL mimics a 240 for use in Smith and Wessons and lever rifles, thus eating into the powder space. With a bullet that can be loaded long, you can and must increase your charge of H110 to get back to the pressure and velocity levels acheived by deeper seating bullets.

[paul h]

Chrono your loads so you see what is happening. When I had a 44 I shot 300, 310 and 330 gr cast bullets over H-110. Strong six guns can handle quite a bit of pressure, not to recomend going over published loads but there are guns that can handle it.

Standard published max loads drive a ~300 gr cast 1200 fps from a 4 5/8" barrel or 1300 fps from a 7 1/2" barrel. I've chronoed those loads through several revolvers and that's what you'll get. I also found going to 22 1/2 gr of H-110 will push a 300 gr bullet 1300 fps from a 4 5/8" barrel. There is no free lunch and making a short barrel gun drive it's bullets as fast as a longer barrel gun requires more pressure. I have no idea how much more pressure.

I'm of the school that thinks a revolver is at it's best pushing a heavy for caliber cast bullet 1200-1300 fps. The 44 mag will do that with 300 gr cast and book loads. If you need more power, then go up in caliber and bullet weight.

[Tatume]

I'm even more conservative than these fellows. My heavy-bullet loads run 1100 - 1150 fps, and I find them to be accurate and plenty powerful.

[firefly1957]

Thanks for the article i have a NEI 44 mold that casts at 330 grs. i am loading it only in a Contender super 14 and am trying to determine how hot i want to go with it for hunting.

[44man]

Thanks for the article i have a NEI 44 mold that casts at 330 grs. i am loading it only in a Contender super 14 and am trying to determine how hot i want to go with it for hunting.
Too fast can be a detriment unless you have some expansion. But too soft reduces accuracy. It is always a toss up. I am going to make boolit noses a little softer while keeping the drive bands hard. It is hard to explain that velocity alone is not what to look for.
The proper boolit at 800 fps works and my hard .44 boolits work at about 1300 fps but if I was to go faster, I would again want some expansion.
My hard boolits from my 45-70 BFR at 1632 fps do NOTHING inside of a deer. Too soft will destroy all the meat.
Your super 14 will shoot FAST so I can only say to work with the alloy. The boolit is the key, not the gun.
I do a necropsy on every deer to see what the boolit did. Just a dead deer means nothing at all.

[bigboredad]

It seems most are over looking OAL ifa 300gr bullet takes the same amount of powder to touch the base the base of the bullet and a 250gr bullet takes the exact same amount or perhaps less to touch the base of the bullet why would you not need to increase the powder for the 300gr bullet. Most of you would call someone crazy for reducing a h110 load more than 10% but think it's ok not to increase the powder when the amount of necessary. I wonder who is crazy and who is ill informed

[paul h]

I have a fair bit of experience loading heavy for caliber cast bullets in handgun rounds under H-110 with varying case capacity due to bullet design. I have also chronoed those loads. There is no significant difference in velocity by varrying powder capacity. I've used SWC, LFN, XLFN of the same weight and same powder charge and if the nominal velocity is 1200 fps, you'll see at most +/- 20 fps, but more than likely +/- 10 fps.

I'd also say based on my experience H-110 performs at it's best with heavy for caliber bullets and does not exibit velocity excursions as it is want to do with lighter bullets when down loaded. H-110 needs a good hot fire to get going, and a heavy for caliber bullet aids in that combustion by taking a fraction of a second longer to get going and allowing the heat and pressure to build.

H-110 does not need zero air space or compression to burn consistantly, it just needs time for the fire to get going which is what heavy for caliber bullets provide.

[44man]

I have a fair bit of experience loading heavy for caliber cast bullets in handgun rounds under H-110 with varying case capacity due to bullet design. I have also chronoed those loads. There is no significant difference in velocity by varrying powder capacity. I've used SWC, LFN, XLFN of the same weight and same powder charge and if the nominal velocity is 1200 fps, you'll see at most +/- 20 fps, but more than likely +/- 10 fps.

I'd also say based on my experience H-110 performs at it's best with heavy for caliber bullets and does not exibit velocity excursions as it is want to do with lighter bullets when down loaded. H-110 needs a good hot fire to get going, and a heavy for caliber bullet aids in that combustion by taking a fraction of a second longer to get going and allowing the heat and pressure to build.

H-110 does not need zero air space or compression to burn consistantly, it just needs time for the fire to get going which is what heavy for caliber bullets provide.
Good points. H110 and 296 will not spike if more is used. Either powder will when worked up will reduce groups in an even manner and once the best is found, groups will open in an even manner as more powder is added. But with proper case tension, any weight boolit or bullet does the same. A 240 gr does the same as a 330 gr so boolit weight alone has little affect, it is case tension to get the burn going. I use nothing but a Fed 150 for ALL bullets/boolits in the .44. Heat without forcing a boolit out of the brass.
The truth is that OAL has little meaning because deep seated uses less powder then long seated but velocity will be the same. Now a longer barrel with more powder from a long seated boolit can give higher velocity because some powder is still burning after peak. There is also a longer push from gas expansion but some powder burning adds to expansion.
The danger with under loading is the primer will blow the powder away from the flash hole and the primer heat. It can also move the boolit out, increasing distance from heat. Yes, the powders need FIRE. Rifle primers can put out 4000 PSI but that is pressure after the fire is out. I have no idea what a LP primer will generate but once fire is gone, powder will not ignite or will be uneven just from pressure. You never want to ignite powder from pressure. Consider primer pressure is also pushing the boolit down the bore REDUCING pressure and how do you expect powder to light?
The reason for never under loading H110 and 296 is to keep powder at the flash hole or close for FIRE to light it off. The coating will resist pressure.
Important, once accuracy is best, it is of no value to keep adding powder.

[dubber123]

Thanks for the article i have a NEI 44 mold that casts at 330 grs. i am loading it only in a Contender super 14 and am trying to determine how hot i want to go with it for hunting.

For what it's worth, I'd start WELL low and work up, I shot a (1) round of my standard load for my 629 S&W in my 10" Contender, and it locked it up tight, I had to remove the barrel to get the empty out. The Contender shoots MUCH faster, but my sample will not tolerate much in the way of "hot" loads.

[firefly1957]

The Bullets as cast do little expanding however that wide metplate should provide some knock down power i just need to work up a good load and resight the pistol as this bullet shoot much higher that the others i sighted in with, 50 yd groups are about 2 inches.

[tek4260]

It seems most are over looking OAL ifa 300gr bullet takes the same amount of powder to touch the base the base of the bullet and a 250gr bullet takes the exact same amount or perhaps less to touch the base of the bullet why would you not need to increase the powder for the 300gr bullet. Most of you would call someone crazy for reducing a h110 load more than 10% but think it's ok not to increase the powder when the amount of necessary. I wonder who is crazy and who is ill informed

Exactly. Here is my 300 next to a 240 factory cast. Guess which one leaves more powder space

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0269.jpg

[44man]

For what it's worth, I'd start WELL low and work up, I shot a (1) round of my standard load for my 629 S&W in my 10" Contender, and it locked it up tight, I had to remove the barrel to get the empty out. The Contender shoots MUCH faster, but my sample will not tolerate much in the way of "hot" loads.
True, sealed breech, no gap. But more velocity is usually barrel length. I found an article comparing velocity from revolvers to single shots and when barrels were the same length, there was little difference in velocity and a few revolvers were FASTER even though pressure was lower.
The problem with the Tender is FLEX and brass can expand more. Seems like the gap in a revolver is not that important for velocity.

[44man]

The Bullets as cast do little expanding however that wide metplate should provide some knock down power i just need to work up a good load and resight the pistol as this bullet shoot much higher that the others i sighted in with, 50 yd groups are about 2 inches.
The meplat does the work with a hard boolit at the right velocity. However I think too fast widens the pressure wave at the front of the boolit creating a large secondary wound channel that collapses and reduces the primary boolit contact. A case for expansion to slow the boolit.
I went to a large meplat, WFN of 83% in the 45-70 with a hard boolit and it did not work any better. It took 100 yards to find blood and I found deer 200 yards and more from where I shot them.
I keep saying this for deer, never look for more velocity, instead make the boolit work.

[firefly1957]

44 Man Interesting thoughts thank you i will keep them in mind when i develop my load i am not sure were i am going to go with it I use a Lee 255 crimped in first lube groove in my S&W the bullet casts at 262 grs and is going 1430 f/s 30 feet from the muzzle . This load shoots good in the Contender but i want to use the NEI bullet for deer.

[rintinglen]

It seems most are over looking OAL ifa 300gr bullet takes the same amount of powder to touch the base the base of the bullet and a 250gr bullet takes the exact same amount or perhaps less to touch the base of the bullet why would you not need to increase the powder for the 300gr bullet. Most of you would call someone crazy for reducing a h110 load more than 10% but think it's ok not to increase the powder when the amount of necessary. I wonder who is crazy and who is ill informed
Less see here.
Are you suggesting that filling to the base of the boolit is the way to determine an appropriate load? COAL is not the only thing that determines pressure. Inertia, friction, mechanical resistance, even air resistance, all play a part.
The author of that article says he is launching a 300 grain boolit to 1461 feet per second. With a load 5 grains heavier than most published data for 300 grain projectiles. data which I might add includes the fact that COAL of the listed projectiles exceeds SAAMI specs, ranging from 1.700 to 1.730". The absolute longest cartridge that I could fit in my Ruger Super Blackhawk is 1.765 inches, and that would be protruding .002 from the cylinder. Think that a .035" difference in COAL means you can load 25% more powder? That he is getting 350 feet per second more than the listed velocities in reputable sources ought to be screaming "Danger, Will Robinson." There is no such thing as free lunch. You can't get that much higher velocity without markedly increasing the pressure, unless you go to a much bigger case, like a .444 Marlin, and likely slower powders.
If you want to believe eveything that gets printed in the Gun Magazines, well it is, allegedly, a free country. But that load, in a Ruger Super Blackhawk, is not safe.

[subsonic]

I suppose the moral of the story is that max loads with H110 and strong guns is based on case capacity with the seating depth of the bullet being the deciding factor. Most "book" max 300gr loads are based on jacketed bullets that must be loaded to a depth where the OAL mimics a 240 for use in Smith and Wessons and lever rifles, thus eating into the powder space. With a bullet that can be loaded long, you can and must increase your charge of H110 to get back to the pressure and velocity levels acheived by deeper seating bullets.

Or use boolits that seat deeper ;-) And have more case neck tension by design.

[subsonic]

BTW, who wrote the article Tek?

[bigboredad]

Less see here.
Are you suggesting that filling to the base of the boolit is the way to determine an appropriate load? COAL is not the only thing that determines pressure. Inertia, friction, mechanical resistance, even air resistance, all play a part.
The author of that article says he is launching a 300 grain boolit to 1461 feet per second. With a load 5 grains heavier than most published data for 300 grain projectiles. data which I might add includes the fact that COAL of the listed projectiles exceeds SAAMI specs, ranging from 1.700 to 1.730". The absolute longest cartridge that I could fit in my Ruger Super Blackhawk is 1.765 inches, and that would be protruding .002 from the cylinder. Think that a .035" difference in COAL means you can load 25% more powder? That he is getting 350 feet per second more than the listed velocities in reputable sources ought to be screaming "Danger, Will Robinson." There is no such thing as free lunch. You can't get that much higher velocity without markedly increasing the pressure, unless you go to a much bigger case, like a .444 Marlin, and likely slower powders.
If you want to believe eveything that gets printed in the Gun Magazines, well it is, allegedly, a free country. But that load, in a Ruger Super Blackhawk, is not safe.
I never suggest people overload a gun quite the contrary. As to believing what I read that is laughable as you must not read many of my post. That's OK no harm or offense taken and hopefully none given. I'm one of those guys who has to try things for myself just cause commando Bob has 4 golden bullets and says you only need x amount of powder and only y primers are needed for the xy bullet weight well you can bet your sweet but I will try it out and every other combo I can find as far a magazines I've never seen thearticle posted there are a couple of writers I enjoy reeding mostly for there style not there load recommendations. Also I believe Ten has a pretty good handle on what he is doing he and I have discussed quite a few loadings and just last week a close topic was discussed on another forum that he and I discuss loads. Over there we don't have to wade thru endless dribble from a know it all. Also I trust very very few on the topic of reloading the other hasn't posted onthis topic but he and I have talked at great length. Hope this clears some things up for you

[tek4260]

BTW, who wrote the article Tek?

Ashley Emerson

Here is a link to the whole article I just found.

http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/make-mine-44?page=1


And rintinglen, since when is stepping from 21-22gr to 25gr, 3 to 4 gr more, a 25% increase?

[tek4260]

Or use boolits that seat deeper ;-) And have more case neck tension by design.


I haven't tried seating my bullets deeper yet, but I have a question about deep seating and accuracy. Seems to my way of thinking that a bullet that is engaged in the throats as far as it can be by seating long will be better than a short seated one that has to "ride up" into the throat. I base this on somewhat sloppy factory chambers. A tight chamber should negate this to some extent. But by the same token, the bullet snug in the throat should help build pressure like deep seating.

Have you tried different seating depths with your 475 bullet? This is probably all academic anyway, as any difference will be negated by my shooting from day to day. I really need to buy a Ransom Rest.

[subsonic]

My boolit seats deep by design and also has a front driving band that engages the throats.

[tek4260]

That Mihec I use has to be seated long to get it into the throats, thus the higher charges.

[bigboredad]

That 340 that sub designed is a right fine shooter. However doesn't seat as deep has a long nose that sits in the throats and the difference in accuracy is negligible

[subsonic]

That Mihec I use has to be seated long to get it into the throats, thus the higher charges.

Since that one has multiple crimp grooves, it wouldn't hurt to try seating deeper. If the boolit diameter+case neck thickness keeps the cartridge centered in the chamber, but still leaves enough room to release the boolit, I think you will find less need to have the front driving band in the throat.

I'd try it seated shorter over 22gr of H110.

[subsonic]

That 340 that sub designed is a right fine shooter. However doesn't seat as deep has a long nose that sits in the throats and the difference in accuracy is negligible

Right, and it's for the .45, not .44. It does seat deeper than what most similar boolits do, like the 335gr Cast Performance WLN that I roughly based it on.

[subsonic]

Chamber pressure is what "makes" velocity. Just like cylinder pressure is what makes horsepower.

Obviously pressure over a longer period of time is the only way to make more of either without increasing max pressure.

In general, but not always, pressure and velocity go hand in hand, especially with H110/296.

[44man]

I haven't tried seating my bullets deeper yet, but I have a question about deep seating and accuracy. Seems to my way of thinking that a bullet that is engaged in the throats as far as it can be by seating long will be better than a short seated one that has to "ride up" into the throat. I base this on somewhat sloppy factory chambers. A tight chamber should negate this to some extent. But by the same token, the bullet snug in the throat should help build pressure like deep seating.

Have you tried different seating depths with your 475 bullet? This is probably all academic anyway, as any difference will be negated by my shooting from day to day. I really need to buy a Ransom Rest.
I shoot mostly WLN, WFN and RNFP boolits. Most have nothing that enters the throats.
I have done a ton of work trying to disprove that a boolit needs seated to the end of the cylinder and it is just false. It is always what your boolit does at the forcing cone and entrance to the bore.
Forget the Ransom rest. Everyone I know will out shoot the thing every day. We played with one a lot at the club and we shot better groups at 200 meters then the thing could do at 25 yards.
It is not that we are better shots then anyone else, it is because we make the revolver shoot better then anyone of us can shoot. There is a point when a miss is made but it is US, not the gun. Call the shot 1" left at 100 yards because of a jiggle and the spotter will say, "yes" that is where the boolit hit.
Shooting boolits that enter the throats tight has never proven to shoot better then a WLN that does not touch. Even under throat size has not proven to be bad.
If you want sloppy, look at my .44 SBH with .4324" throats and a .430" groove. I shot this at 200 yards with a .430" WLN. I just tried to match the forcing cone angle with the nose. I full length size and they rattle in the chamber. YES, 1-5/16" at 200 yards. I never missed a deer to well over 100 yards. I really do shoot revolvers to 500 meters (547 yards.) I sure pull my hair to make it easy and to forget all the stuff that is not going to help. Too much is from gun rags and repeated over and over. Most of my revolvers have done 1/2" at 100 yards from bags many times. You will never see me shoot 25 yards. I start with bottles of water at 100. Does not matter if a .44 or .500.