Stubborn Fouling

[CTBC]

Stubborn Bore

I can't think of anyone better equipped to help me with this than you lovers of service rifles.

My rifle cleaning experience is limited to 20 years of obsessive/compulsive bore scrubbing in the Marines and my own match rifles. A used rifle has brought me to my wits end.

I've recently acquired a used 700V in 22-250 and can't seem to get the bore clean. I don't expect it to slick up like a hand-lapped Kreiger, but cheese-n-rice, I should at least get it clean.

I get clean patches punching out of the muzzle end and all I have to do is run a few passes with a tight bronze brush to turn things carbon black again. I tried Hoppes, Shooter's Choice, gun scrubber, that foamy stuff, and even JB Bore Paste. I'm embarrassed to admit, I can't get this bore clean.

I'm happy to leave well enough alone, but it just ain't well enough for me. About the best I can do is .75" groups from a rifle I think should live inside a half inch. But I'm not willing to start my load tuning and rifle tinkering with a dirty bore.

I'm not looking for loading and shooting tips. That's the fun part for me, and I'm too bull headed to admit I don't know everything. What I'm asking is, have you experienced this before, the eternally dirty bore? What about your old service rifles? Did your 98 slick up clean as a whistle after a cleaning or three?

I own a switch barrel PPC gun with twin Shilens that clean right up with a few scrubs and a patch of Sweets. A 700 with a Hart, same thing. A home built AR with a Kreiger that never seems to foul. But this varmint shooter has me stumped. Any comments?

[milrifle]

certainly no expert here, but I had the same experience with an 03-A3. Could get clean patches, but then run a bronze bore brush and start getting 'copper fouling' or else run a stainless steel bore brush and start getting black fouling again. I finally quit trying and told myself the 'copper fouling' was coming off my bronze bore brush and the black fouling was coming off my SS bore brush. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but after days of cleaning for a couple of hours per day and literally hundreds of patches, I said the L with it.

[Gtek]

I have went to nylon brush with patch over nose. Ed's Red? I picked up a Hi-Wall .223 I think somebody bought new, shot two hundred rounds and sold it the next day with not even a wipe. Took me way to much of everything, now back to my Butch's and nylon brush. I fully understand the Devil Dog, try not to clean the rifling out of it. Thank You for your service! Gtek

[CTBC]

I currently own three rifles with carbon steel barrels, rimfires and chrome ARs aside. I have 1981 model 700 in 270 and a 1962 Sako L579 in 243 that act the same way, but not this extreme. Oops, I have an SAFN49 that doesn't cause much trouble. I don't fret over dirty AKs.

Maybe I'm spoiled to stainless tubes and this is just the way it is in the other world.

[DCM]

Try plastic jags with cloth patches.
I prefer Rem clean over JB but they both work.
I would use the JB on a cloth patch and plastic jag from the breach many times followed by some cloth patches on a plastic jag of your favorite solvent.

EDIT: I also use Dewey coated rods and wipe them off with each pass.
No metal on metal contact that way.

[Jack Stanley]

I've seen barrels that had the rifling nearly hidden because of fouling , in those cases I used an electric cleaner . In barrels that should be reasonably smooth on the inside I'll nylon brush with Hoppes to get the powder fouling out then wipe dry leaving the metal fouling in place . Then the foamy stuff get shot down the bore for eight hours or so . Then it gets wiped very dry with clean patches and is usually clean sometimes it takes another shot of foam though .

I had an 03A3 barrel that was horrible rough from chatter marks , cleaned it like that about every twenty to sixty rounds and now it's smoothing up and cleaning much easier . Currently working on a Garand barrel that was "neglected" to put it nicely and it is responding well to the treatment .

Jack

[Recaster]

I would like to help but i seem to have the same problem. I have been cleaning a Russian Mosin-Nagant M-44 for the last five years. When i got the rifle i could barely see the rifling. I thought it was just greese 'till i started cleaning. A couple of bronze brushes and a bottle of no. 9 later i was sure i was screwed. I decided to try and shoot the mil. surplus that i got with the rifle. I shot about 5" groups/patterns at 50 yards. Not good, but it was fun and somewhat cheap. After cleaning, i noticed more pronounced rifling. Every time i shoot this gun i see a little more rifling. I've recently started reloading and have got my groups down under 2" at 50 yards, some of them better. I shoot, clean, shoot, clean, and it seems every time i clean is a little better. I've used "Bore Scrubber" and "Shooters Choice, copper remover" but mostly "Hoppes no. 9." While i might look into that "electric cleaning," my meathod seems to be working and is a lot of fun.

Besides now i can see the light at the end of the barrel.

[MtGun44]

Deplater. It is like an archeological dig. Unplate, scrub out the carbon crud, clean with acetone,
and unplate again. I have had to do this 5-6 times on a few before I struck steel.

Bill

[SciFiJim]

It is not very hard to make your own electronic barrel cleaner.

A really good how to is ...

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp (http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp)

The article is good and the comments are better.

I need to do this to a rifle as well, but just have not got myself one of those roundtoits.

[9.3X62AL]

I've had a few barrels that copper-fouled something fierce. One was a duty rifle, an older-series Ruger 77V in 308. It wasn't bad accuracy-wise for up to 25 rounds, but cold-shot plotting was a PITA. My solution was to clean after shooting with ammonia-based "Blue Goo", remove that thoroughly, then leave the bore wet with Hoppe's #9 and stand the rifle inside the safe muzzle-down in a plastic cup.

We fired for record every 4 weeks. At the 2-week point, I hauled the rifle out--cleaned the softened and viscous robin-egg-blue Sierra bullet coating from the bore, and re-wet with Hoppe's. Just before shooting or at an activation, I swabbed the bore dry and sallied forth. The rifle would do 3/4" at 100 yards very reliably, and the cold shot was within that group. Whatever works, I say.

I did this same regimen with a well-used SMLE No. 1 Mk III barrel. With this one, I spent about 3 months' time cleaning with the Sweet's 7.62 every 3-4 days, then wiping that out and wetting with Hoppe's between Sweet's dosings, and letting it sit muzzle-down inside the safe. There was an incredible amount of build-up on that bore, but the chems eventually got me down to steel, and a properly-sized .316" boolit shoots respectably well to 1700-1800 FPS.

You have some very fine rifle barrels in your care. I wouldn't expect a Remington OEM barrel to be as tractable as most of those you mentioned. I suggest that you tweak leade/bullet ogive clearances a bit, make sure the throat isn't toasted-out, and make sure the twist rate can support the bullet length you are using. Most 700s have some respectable accuracy hidden within them, just waiting for a wizard to unleash it.

[CTBC]

Thanks, everybody.

The homemade electronic cleaner looks interesting. I can seldom resist building a gadget.

[perotter]

I think you'll be happy with the results of the electronic cleaner.

[Jack Stanley]

I built the one from the surplus rifle plans , easy to do and it works good . I do pay attention to it while it's working and don't get to far from it .

Jack

[TCLouis]

2-3 24 hour exposures to Kroil

2-3 24 exposures to Wipeout

[.22-10-45]

Hello, CTBC. last year I was attempting to de-copper a circa 1901 Farquharson in .450/.400 3 1/4". Tried all the solvents..& still got blue..until I used Bore Tech CU+2 copper eliminator..you must use rod & jags/brushes without brass parts, or you'll get a false reading..this stuff cleaned up the heavy copper fouled bore in just a few days.

[leadman]

For the bad mil-surp rifles I use the purple soaps available as Castrol Super Clean, purple power, etc. I put some in a large coffee can and hold the muzzle up off the bottom of the can then run the stainless brush up and down thru the bore. Usually 20 or so passes, then sqwitch to mineral spirits and do the same thin. After that I use Sweet's until I am ready to quit for awhile then put Hoppe's #9 in the bore and let it set at least overnight. Most of the time this has to be repeated several times. I did this recently to a Mosin-Nagant and enlarged the bore about .002"!

[Hip's Ax]

I bought a Krag about 13 years ago and the bore was badly fouled. It was a farm gun used to put down lame livestock and it lived on USGI corrosive ammo and had never been cleaned. Fluffy live rust and fouling of all types. I used bottles of solvent, bags of patches and wore out many brushes and could not get it clean. One of the older fellows on another board told me to take the rifle, some ammo and my cleaning gear to the range. Shoot 1 shot and clean the rifle until the bore is down to steel. 4 or 5 rounds is all it took.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I bought a two-groove M1917 Enfield that was badly metal-fouled a couple years ago.

I simply loaded it with conventional lead-bullet combinations - at the end of 100 rounds of normal shooting all metallic fouling was gone: When I passed a patch through the bore it slipped through as smoothly as if it were a bran-new Premium Douglas barrel. I didn't do anything extra or work intensive at all. I simply loaded and fired 100 shots of things like RCBS 30-180-SP and 21.5 grains 4759.

It was a completely no-sweat 'cleaning' operation. It worked and I have not fired any jacketed bullets in the rifle at all since then. ~ Why tempt fate?

Good evening,
Forrest

[milrifle]

So, did anyone try the electronic cleaner? I think I might. One question. The foul out usestwo different solutions. One for copper, another for lead. The instructions for the home made cleaner only mentions one type solution which sounds fine for copper, but is there something else better for lead?

[atr]

Ive used my homemade electrinic cleaner on several rifles,,,,its does help but its not a cure all...and most important BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU USE AN AMMONIA SOLUTION,,,DON'T GET IT ON THE WOOD STOCK
atr

[FAsmus]

Milrifle;

For removing serious leading, the kind the fills the grooves completely there is nothing more effective than loading three or four jacketed bullets over, say, 6 grains of Bullseye and firing them into a safe backstop.

The first two will come out covered with lead, like they'd been soldered, then the last one or two will show only the typical wear that all jacketed bullets have after they have been fired.

After that simply clean the bore normally and put the rifle back on the rack. ~ But don't repeat the load that leaded it up in the first place!

Good morning,
Forrest

[milrifle]

Thanks guys. It's not really leaded, just has a lot of pits I'd like to get clean. I just figured that if there was any lead, maybe I needed another chemical. Ill try the water/ammonia/vinegar solution mentioned in the article.

[Chicken Thief]

An observation:

Noone have mentioned scrubbing with some sort of car engine intake manifold carbon miracle cleaner.

Wich leeds me to a question i asked a chemestry professor yrs ago. Can you dissolve carbon, and the flat answer is: "NO"
I asked because i drove a 2-stroke moped and vanted to clean out the muffler.
But when you work on multible deposits (copper, nickel, mercury and what not) and use multible diluters/agressors then the carbon structure is weakened when the metal solids are dissolved and the carbon "structure" can then be removed manually.

What's it about a free lunch?

[MtGun44]

Yes. The electronic cleaners work great. If the fouling is in layers with carbon type
layers between metal, the cleaner will stop. Scrub with Hoppes, then acetone wipe
and go again.

Bill

[CTBC]

I've built and tried the electrical bore cleaner without much success. It's a 22-250 so there not much room for fluid and fairy magic around the 1/8 inch rod. That aside, you've answered my question, yes, others have experienced this problem. It's just dang dirty and I'll just dang clean it.

I acquired the rifle with the full intention of re-barreling in one of the modern 6.5 wiz bangs, but now I'm challenged. I'd like to get it clean and see how it shoots. I accept that it have to spend some time in my cleaning cradle first.

[Hip's Ax]

An observation:

Noone have mentioned scrubbing with some sort of car engine intake manifold carbon miracle cleaner.

Wich leeds me to a question i asked a chemestry professor yrs ago. Can you dissolve carbon, and the flat answer is: "NO"
I asked because i drove a 2-stroke moped and vanted to clean out the muffler.
But when you work on multible deposits (copper, nickel, mercury and what not) and use multible diluters/agressors then the carbon structure is weakened when the metal solids are dissolved and the carbon "structure" can then be removed manually.

What's it about a free lunch?

I digress but the trick to cleaning out a 2 stroke exhaust is to get an oxy acetylene torch and get the carbon/oil/trash burning inside the head pipe, then shut off the acetylene and feed it oxygen only. The fouling will burn up, you can actually watch the progession of the flame front on the outside of the pipe as the heat is so high that the paint will blister or the chrome will blue. I didn't make this up, I was taught this by a master motorcycle mechanic, I have done it and it works like a charm.

[SciFiJim]

Noone have mentioned scrubbing with some sort of car engine intake manifold carbon miracle cleaner.

I have forgotten about one method I used years ago to get the stubborn carbon fouling out. I used GO-JO hand cleaner. I placed the muzzle end of the barrel into the can and stroking from the bolt end with a bronze brush and drawing the cleaner up into the barrel. It worked very well. I was getting out dark sludge for a while. I figured if it works well on hands, why not on metal.

[atr]

AH HA ! Hand Cleaner,,,,now thats something Im going to try
thanks for that
atr

[.5mv^2]

I have had barrels like that. Most every Mosin. I would alternate between getting black then green, then back to black. I have found that using alternating water based cleaners and organic solvents really was needed.