Action Wrenchin

[redneckdan]

I have a vz-24 that was chambered in 8mmx57, that had a bulge about 2/3 down the barrel. As you can imagine it didn't shoot fer s***. So I came across a deal on a .30 cal barrel and it started from there.

I've been fighting with the action wrench / barrel vise part for a couple weeks and here is the chronical of that adventure.


First I tried making a barrel vise with a piece of angle, some all thread, a pair of pine blocks and mounting the whole mess to the roll bar of my truck. That didn't hold worth beans.

Next was using a rubber hot pad between the block and barrel, that held some what. So I went and found some more angle iron, cut a v-notch in some 1x1 square stock and used more threaded rode to attach it to the angle iron. This proved enough leverage to twist the barrel in the vise.

So I went and got me some u-bolts for 3/4" pipe, went to dunhams to find powder rosin but found some pine tar covered cloth instead. I drilled a 3/4" plate to hold the u bolts, attached that to the roll bar of the truck. This held the barrel well enough to flex the angle iron of the action wrench but it still slipped on the barrel.


Getting a little pissed off I went and got a pipe wrench and it just so happend that around that time Jen got back from her buisness trip down state for the EAB study project. With my wife hanging on a 3' pipe attached to the pipe wrench handle, with the pipe wrench holding the barrel I was getting enough grip to bend the living snot out of the action wrench handle where it matted to the action.

I went back to the drawing board and found some aluminium plate layin around. I drilled it to fit between the action and the handle. By this time my redneck apprentice in training had gone to bed so I was on my own. I attached the pipe/wrench tool to the truck roll bar with nylon strap and reinstalled the action wrench. This time with much applied force and a little bit of swearing (okay....alot, the neighbors actually came outside to see what all the rucous was and ran back inside when they saw the truck rocking around) the action broke loose from the barrel. Below is the photographic evidence.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/redneckdan/IMGP2873.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/redneckdan/IMGP2875.jpg


the carnage from the bending action wrench handle.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/redneckdan/IMGP2882.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/redneckdan/IMGP2883.jpg


Success!! Time for a Becks!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/redneckdan/IMGP2885.jpg

[45nut]

Quite the adventure huh?

Whats the plans for the action?

[No_1]

Good deal dan,

I have heard that some of them are on so tight that they are described as "teeter than hell". Now that you are experienced can I send mine to you for de-barreling?

[Bret4207]

As a former semi-pro barrel taker-offer, I can attest to the trials of getting barrels off some of those old Mausers. Sometimes a sharp blow on the wrench handle with a 4lb hammer will break them loose. Some just refuse to come loose.

[bruce drake]

As one who has done several Mausers in the nearly the same manner (I also have a 4 foot section of Angle Iron stored in the corner of the garage), the first couple were real beeetchs until a gunsmith let me know a simple trick that a strong whack at the end of the Angle Iron with a 8lb Sledge hammer usually loosened things up real fast. Same goes with cinching the new barrel on. Just think of the leverage applied with the 4 ft bar multiplied by the mass and momentum of the 8lb sledgehammer.

In the words of everyone's favorite over-marketed redneck, "It'll Git Er Done."

Bruce

[Phil]

I have always been able to get the tightest of barrels off by putting a 5' piece of 2" ID galvanized pipe over the handle of my action wrench (1.25" diameter), then lifting the pipe up and sharply snapping it down. Works every time, usually on the first snap. The Mauser actions that breech on the inner collar are usually very tight. Lee Enfields can be a pain also.

Cheers,

Phil

[redneckdan]

Good deal dan,

I have heard that some of them are on so tight that they are described as "teeter than hell". Now that you are experienced can I send mine to you for de-barreling?

If you want to pay the freight I would be glad to do it for you.


Quite the adventure huh?

Whats the plans for the action?

I already have .300 wby dies and a quantity of brass so I think I'm going to ream the short chamber .308 barrel to .300 wby. I know the mauser action isn't really designed for 65,000psi but I want to use the dies I have already, and its been done before. I plan on loading .300 win mag data around 50,000-55,000 psi, well within the realm of the mauser action. I actually just finished the scope base. hopefully have pics soon.

[fiberoptik]

I always wondered if an old 8mm barrel chunk would make a decent .32 muzzleloader pistol barrel, or if the twist was too fast for rb's. What's the plan for the barrel?

[waksupi]

We've dealt with this a little, as I am a Mauser fan. On some of the old military actions, it is necessary to chuck it up in a mill, and make a relief cut on the barrel to free things up. And still, had to soak it in solvent for a week or so, to loosen things up.
Be aware, with any action, you can loose it totaly. This spring, I torqued a pre '64 action, and split the front reciever ring, trying to remove the original barrel.

[Bullshop]

Waksupi
I have read that the p17/14 Enfield can be a most dificult barrel to remove. Also that the action can be easily ruined if as you said a relief cut is not made in the barrel shank. Problem here is I have one I would like to rebarrel but the origonal looks about mint inside. I would really hate to chop it off to a few inch stubb. On the other hand I would hate even worse to crack the receiver trying to save the barrel. What to do what to do???
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

Waksupi
I have read that the p17/14 Enfield can be a most dificult barrel to remove. Also that the action can be easily ruined if as you said a relief cut is not made in the barrel shank. Problem here is I have one I would like to rebarrel but the origonal looks about mint inside. I would really hate to chop it off to a few inch stubb. On the other hand I would hate even worse to crack the receiver trying to save the barrel. What to do what to do???
BIC/BS


You may not have any choice. Best suggestion I can give, is to get some oil of peppermint, and immerse the action and stub for at least a week. The O of P, is one of the finest of oils, and will out penetrate pretty much any other.
Another solution I haven't tried is the reverse electrical osmosis. I kind of suspect a couple days in this, may release things, but it is just a guess at the time, as I haven't tried it. However, it is cheap, and worth a try. I believe I will try it out on the next stubborn action that passes by me.

[45nut]

Waksupi
I have read that the p17/14 Enfield can be a most dificult barrel to remove. Also that the action can be easily ruined if as you said a relief cut is not made in the barrel shank. Problem here is I have one I would like to rebarrel but the origonal looks about mint inside. I would really hate to chop it off to a few inch stubb. On the other hand I would hate even worse to crack the receiver trying to save the barrel. What to do what to do???
BIC/BS

Buy one of my spare actions Dan.

[JeffinNZ]

I have NEVER seen a vehicle used as part of a disassembly unit for a barrel removal. NOW I have seen it all.

Dan, you are man of great patience! Well done.

[Jim]

Man, I can't remember how long it's been since my pipe wrenches looked like Dan's![smilie=1:

[RSOJim]

Me and one of my buddies used a boat trailer tongue to bolt down our barrel vice one time when we didn't have anything else. Jim

[redneckdan]

I always wondered if an old 8mm barrel chunk would make a decent .32 muzzleloader pistol barrel, or if the twist was too fast for rb's. What's the plan for the barrel?


whats your address?



We've dealt with this a little, as I am a Mauser fan. On some of the old military actions, it is necessary to chuck it up in a mill, and make a relief cut on the barrel to free things up. And still, had to soak it in solvent for a week or so, to loosen things up.
Be aware, with any action, you can loose it totaly. This spring, I torqued a pre '64 action, and split the front reciever ring, trying to remove the original barrel.

Do you know where I can get a hold of a tap for chasing the reciever threads, reletively cheap or maybe rent one? I mic-ed the reciever before and after remove and there was no shift in measurement. I also magnafluxed the reciever. I used a cocktail of eds red, wd-40, breakfree clp and mobil 1 oil and imersed the action in it for a day. I'll have to remember that peppermint oil idea.



I have NEVER seen a vehicle used as part of a disassembly unit for a barrel removal. NOW I have seen it all.

Dan, you are man of great patience! Well done.

I had it bolted to my bench and even with 300lbs of lead on the bottom shelf I was still chasing it around the apartment. Jen made me take it out side. I couldn't find the reese hitch so I unbolted one of the KC lights and bolted on the vise. Redneck engineering at its finest.:redneck:


Man, I can't remember how long it's been since my pipe wrenches looked like Dan's![smilie=1:

Don't worry, I forgot it out side last night and it now has a nice coating of "protective rust" on the unpainted surfaces.

[44man]

I had to change the barrel on my 6.5 Swede. I made my own wrenches and put the action wrench in my big vise. A few hefty swings with a 6# hammer on the barrel wrench had it off in nothing flat.
The headspace was too much with the old and new barrels and not having a lathe I could put any of them in, I filed the front of the action a tiny bit at a time until it was perfect with a whack from the hammer to tighten. The gun shoots 1/2" groups. I had to plug the sight holes before polishing and getting it blued.
You can bend stuff by just using long levers and force but a whack with a heavy hammer will break stuff loose.

[redneckdan]

You can bend stuff by just using long levers and force but a whack with a heavy hammer will break stuff loose.


I had planned to apply my 2lb engineer hammer (i know its an engineers hammer cause I 'long term borrowed it' from a real live engineer) to the side of the action wrench but I forgot about the hammer when the moment of truth came. It really wasn't stuck all that bad, just had a hard time holding the barrel.

[redneckdan]

ric, where can I find info on opening up a mauser bolt face for a belted magnum? thanks.

[waksupi]

Dan, you open the face in a lathe. I'll have to look at some reference, to tell you the correct proceedure. Pretty straight forward, but don't recall the clearance right off.

[leftiye]

Bullshop, On that 1917 issue- The first one I took off was on there quite tight. Not knowing the above info on them being a problem at the time, I turned a cylindrical section in the barrel in front of the reciever and fastened it in a barrel vise, and proceeded to take it off. Rechambered it to .300 WM and replaced it. You might want to try that first judiciously before you wreck that barrel. The trick is to NOT put the 6' cheater pipe on the action wrench! If it won't come off you may still have to let the tension off of the threads.

I also had a little fun with a 700 Rem rebarrel once. Seems some genius didn't have a proper vise, and wrench, so he put locktite on the threads and tightened it on the best he could. (I don't have any idea why he had the barrel off) Wouldn't hit the side of the proverbial barn. Guy brought it to me for a Shilen barrel. Talk about fun to get off! Barrel was a bit worse for wear before that let loose.

[Phil]

Leftiye,

Remington was good for that. I had the same problem with a M700 once and I know it was done at the factory because I bought the gun new from a reputable distributor.

You are correct on having the proper vise and wrench. I have both vise and wrench made by Brownell's. I make my own barrel vise inserts from aluminum stock, coat them with rosin, tighten the bolts good and tight. I've never had a barrel spin in them. Been some mighty tight ones too. Proper action wrench inserts, plus putting a piece of .700" bar stock in the bolt way, insures that you don't screw up the receiver. I put the breech block in the stripped receiver on single shot actions for the same reason. No point in taking chances.

Cheers,

Phil

Cheers,

Phio

[leftiye]

I wasn't faulting Waksupi's information or approach, only saying to try the standard approach carefully as a first try. Bullshop had said that he would like to try to save the barrel.

And then later I had a thought on Winchester and Enfield recievers. They being flat on the bottom, if there becomes a problem unscrewing a barrel a wrench can be fitted to, or made to fit, or just plain made that grips the reciever ring, and doesn't involve the magazine cut. Then much more force can be applied, and not hurt the reciever, though holding the barrel against such force might involve making flats on it too! Had to mill parallel and opposite flats on that Remington barrel, and when it came off there was Locktite or something similar in the threads. It wouldn't be too hard to design and build a wrench that fits the outside of the Remington reciever and has lugs that bear on the side rails so as to exert minimum twisting force on the action.

[Phil]

Hi Leftyie,

No offence intended to anyone, I was just saying that I had a similar problem with a Remington, with the loctite. Brownells has blocks for their action wrenches that fit the contour of the receiver ring. I THINK (as opposed to know for sure) that where everyone got into trouble years ago was in trying to use a big monkey wrench to get the barrels off M17's. Poor support for the receiver that way. I have seen three Eddystone receivers cracked by the same guy and they were all done with big monkey wrenches. Eddystone receivers were always said to be of questionable heat treat and subject to being brittle. I think the Brownells wrench will solve the support issue. But I still use a piece of bar stock in the boltway as insurance. Anything you can do to insure you don't screw up a receiver is worth using. Snapping a big pipe is the same as using a big hammer but it sure seems to me to work better. You will put more strain (over a longer period of time) by using steady pressure than you will with a sharp snap.

Cheers,

Phil

[Yance]

Old gunsmith trick I picked up a while back on those barrels that just don't want to give up. Screw them "IN" 'til you hear/feel the faintest "tick", then reverse you wrench/vice setup and screw the barrel out.

I'll have to try to remember to take some pics of my buddy's super-simple barrel vice that he lag screws to a split log sitting bench out by his firepit. It also worked great for removing the "snail" breechplug from my Grandpa's 100+ year old squirrel rifle.

[leftiye]

Ditto on the "Mental Illness."

[Frank46]

Dan, maybe you should have taped your gyrations and setup and sent it to America's funniest video's. Probably would have won something. I have a piece of 1" bar stock and a couple of those U bolts and have removed a couple barrels with that home made rig. I had a buddy at work some years back had a nice german mauser with trashed bbl. He wanted to get the bbl off so he could send it to E.R.Shaw for a new one. Since the bbl was shot I stuck it into a huge vise, put on the bar stock rig and holding the receiver with one hand smacked the barstock with a ball pien hammer. Screwed off 1-2-3. Suprised everyone including me. But no arguement since it worked. Frank

[ovendoctor]

that [ahmmm]work bench was arround before dan was thought of[smilie=1:

damm good welding on the roll bar:drinks:



:castmine: :redneck:

[madcaster]

Yance,you just watch that the split log does not close on your hickory nuts!Seems like I have heard of this happening somewheres in time....

[waksupi]

Dan I remembered what I was trying to remember the other night. Once the bolt face is opened up, you need to mount it in the mill, and remove the little ears left at the bottom of the cut, to allow the cartidge rim to feed up.

[Bug]

As an alternative to oil of peppermint, try Campho-Phenique (sp?)! It is one hell of a penetrator.

[Boomer Mikey]

Mauser actions will conveniently fit in a 3 jaw lathe chuck. I've always been too concerned about twisting the action to try to save a barrel. I just part off the old barrel and bore out the remaining stub until only the threads and a few thou of the original barrel is left. Then the threads are just "unwound" from the inside of the receiver like opening a can of spam.

Boomer :Fire:

[Sam]

One problem you will have is that the 300 is going to be a bit long for that action.
Relieving the barrel by taking a cut just ahead of the action won't help much either because the seat is on the internal shoulder.

Do like Boomer say and bore it out.

Sam

[Blammer]

the part about using the trucks roll bar kept me quite entertained. Never heard of THAT before.

[Ricochet]

You'll likely encounter feeding issues from the magazine as well with a conversion to .300 Win Mag. I'd stick with a standard case and buy some new dies.

[redneckdan]

Finally got out to do some testing. The rifle is chambered in .30-284 win, a wildcat of course. This case has a rebated rim which seems to play hell with the mauser magazine, but I haven't had time to tweak with the feed rails yet. For reference, this case has about 3% more capacity than a .30-06. The load was a 160gr lee (the boolit for the 7.62x39), checked and sized at .309", the powder was 35.0 gr of WC860 over a .5cc kicker of H335. The boolit was seated long without crimp and then seated into the rifling upon chambering. the surplus powder burned clean with minimal recoil. Heres a 50yd(left) and 100yd(right) target, three shots each. The fliers are more than likely my fault.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/redneckdan/crop.jpg