Colt New Service 455 Eley - Spare Cylinder to perserve history?

[olivestab]

Hi everyone, New to the forums. (scroll down to the conclusion for the point of this thread)
For the past 9months I have been researching everything about this gun I inherited called the COLT New Service .455 Eley.
I discovered things about all of the markings, That it has not been converted, and what type of ammo it shoots.

Fast forward:
I have been on the hunt for some .455 ammo.
Some places sell online for $35-$45/50rnds but are out of stock.
-Sites specializing In making their own ammo will sell for a whopping $70/50rnds!
I am reluctant to buy it at that price, but after months of finding nothing, I cave in and go for the buy, only to find out that they too are out of stock. Personal/User to User deals online have fallen through, nobody gets back to me even though I am willing to buy.
On top of all this, I discovered that Hornday stopped making 455! Fiocchi and Old Western Scrounger are the only places left!

Conclusion:
SO I had this Idea to buy a spare cylinder, (obviously a Colt new service specific) and have it converted to fit Long colt rounds.
I read online that it is only a very small change that needs to be done in order to shoot Long colt.
However, that "small change" makes a "BIG" change to the guns worth (not that I plan on selling it anyway).
-What do you (older and seasoned) gun guru's think about this?

I was hoping to find a COLT newservice cylinder that has already been altered so it is inexpensive.
So far I can only see a few auctions going for $200 and over, but I also saw a sold auction for $65!!!
-Are there any alternative cylinders that would fit, or could be altered without changing the gun at a lower price?
Or am I stuck searching for Colt 455 relics.
Thanks for the help.
Here are some pictures of my gun:
Please let me know anything significant about any markings you see, I still haven't found explanations on all of them.
63061630626306363064630656306663067630686306963070

[Dutchman]

NOTENGLISHMAKE was a proof marking denoting foreign-made firearms. When your revolver was exported back to the U.S. it got some of those marks. The British have ZERO respect for fine firearms and tend to muck them up with all manner of stupid stampings. That's all they are, proof markings showing that the revolver was proof fired.

The one with the NP in the circle is nitro proof, smokeless powder. BV was a Birmingham inspection stamp. BP was a black powder proof. Some of the cross pendant stamps are military inspection stamps. The one with E is for Enfield. The Broad Arrow stamp is a British military ownership stamp.

I had one just like it. Mine was rechambered to .45 Colt. But you can get .455 brass now and dies and just load it like a limp wristed tea sipping limey @ .455 and say By Jove every time you drop the hammer :).

http://images42.fotki.com/v663/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSC00157x-vi.jpg

[olivestab]

I guess that answers the smokless powder question.
That means the gun is safe to shoot the modern .455 webley made by fiocchi.(?)

[Dutchman]

I guess that answers the smokless powder question.
That means the gun is safe to shoot the modern .455 webley made by fiocchi.(?)

But of course.

.455 Wobbley is a whimpy cartridge anyway.

Dutch

[olivestab]

Thats painful to hear!
I have discussed this with other people, and they made it seem like the gun was more significant due to all the marks it has.
Also, I read online that the .455 was called the "Man Stopper", It seems to be a little bigger than a normal 45 round, or at least posted higher than 45 on lists by size.
Thanks for the info though!

Well since we are on the topic, what do you think of me buying another cylinder to shoot 45 long colt?

[Piedmont]

Buy brass from Buffalo Arms and load for it. Don't rechamber.

The "manstopper" I believe is a reference to one specific load that was a cavernous hollowpoint (looked like a wadcutter from the side) and had a swaged hollowbase, too. It weighed around 220 grains.

If you stick around this board, the problems of getting an oversize lubrisizer die (should be around .456" I think) and a special bullet mold are easily solved. Casting isn't that big a deal either. In fact if you had the lubrisizer and large sizing die you could probably con someone on the board to supply you for a little money or trade goods.

It is a cool cartridge. Leave it like it is and load for it. Pretend it is World War One again!

[olivestab]

Buy brass from Buffalo Arms and load for it. Don't rechamber.

The "manstopper" I believe is a reference to one specific load that was a cavernous hollowpoint (looked like a wadcutter from the side) and had a swaged hollowbase, too. It weighed around 220 grains.

If you stick around this board, the problems of getting an oversize lubrisizer die (should be around .456" I think) and a special bullet mold are easily solved. Casting isn't that big a deal either. In fact if you had the lubrisizer and large sizing die you could probably con someone on the board to supply you for a little money or trade goods.

It is a cool cartridge. Leave it like it is and load for it. Pretend it is World War One again!
I didn't know buffalo arms sold 455 brass.
But what do you think about having two cylinders? (one original and another for 45 Long colt)
I know it sounds crazy but Im just curious. I'd like to have the original stuff for display, but its costly to shoot 455.
I thought switching out the cylinder with a rechambered one would be a good idea, so I would still have an original 455 cylinder.
Gonna go check out Buffalo arms.

And just for the hell of it, is there a "all in one" link or thread anyone can provide me so I can know all there is to know/purchase
equipment to reload 455 cartridges? there are so many terms and threads about re-loading its kind of confusing.

[Piedmont]

I didn't know buffalo arms sold 455 brass.
But what do you think about having two cylinders? (one original and another for 45 Long colt)
I know it sounds crazy but Im just curious. I'd like to have the original stuff for display, but its costly to shoot 455.
I thought switching out the cylinder with a rechambered one would be a good idea, so I would still have an original 455 cylinder.
Gonna go check out Buffalo arms.

And just for the hell of it, is there a "all in one" link or thread anyone can provide me so I can know all there is to know/purchase
equipment to reload 455 cartridges? there are so many terms and threads about re-loading its kind of confusing.
I look at having two cylinders as expensive. It may not be a drop in fit, you know, so there may be a gunsmithing fee on top of the cylinder. Rechambering certainly won't be cheap.

You should try to chamber a .45 Colt round in your revolver if you have not already. Lots of these were converted and they may not be marked as converted.

www.buffaloarms.com
I think the .45 Webley .820" cases are what you want for your revolver but I am not an expert. If that is what you need, cases are 78 cents each. Sixty cents if you buy 100. I don't know about dies. You would use large bullets that are also acceptable for .45 Colt. Wasn't the original .455 bullet 265 grains? So it isn't really any more expensive than loading .45 Colts once you have your dies and cases it is cheaper because you use less powder.

There is also the satisfaction of loading something obscure. Nobody else at your range will be shooting a .455 Eley/Webley and most won't have a clue what it is.

Lee might make dies, but I don't know that they do. If you know someone with a lathe, shortening a .45 Colt seater/crimper die will probably get you into the game using .45 Colt dies.

You should slug your cylinder throats and get back to us with that information. If they are large (.455-.457") you need to load bullets that large. British Webley revolvers had tight throats (.450 ish) and used a hollowbase bullets. I think I have read Colt didn't use that practice, which will be a good thing for you, if true.

[45 2.1]

Lee does or did... whichever is the case...... make 455 dies. Brass can be made from 45 Colt cases or maybe one of the Starline 45 cases fairly easily by trimming and thinning the rim from the front side. Wimpy cartridge?.... Yes, but pretty effective when loaded with the right boolit. Please leave it original as enough Webley, S&W and Colt revolvers have been butch'ed by reaming the cylinder already.

[Green Frog]

It's your gun, so it's ultimately your decision. That said, and since you asked for input, I would lean toward getting set up to load 455 (since I load for most of what I shoot anyway) and working on buying at least 100, but more likely 500 rounds of brass in that calibre (it is British, after all! :mrgreen:) I would also try to buy a very good bullet mould appropriate to the 455. Meanwhile, I would keep an eye out for a replacement cylinder... I'm a strong believer in making reversible changes so I can return to original and not harm collectibility. Slug your barrel... you may find that a 45 ACP is a possibility as well. Ultimately though, it's your gun, so make sure you ignore everyone else's nay-saying on either side, and do what you will enjoy the most!

Regards,
Froggie

[ReloaderEd]

I made 455 cases using 45LC brass for a friend one time. The rim is turned down thinner and diameter changed. They worked ok but it is a whimpy cartridge. I have one in 45acp that useds the full moon clips that shoots very well. perhaps you could find a cylinder for that cartridge. The 45LC cylinder would work most colt parts are interchageable. be safe

[saint_iverson]

My grandpa said he would cut down the 45Colt and load as-cast from a oversize .454" 45Colt mold. Normally (as i understand and was told as a kid) the British would overload the firearm in individual tests to vet them for service use. (somehow the tower of london was involved here as well-research if you wish)

Anyways, they are strong firearms. Some have been recut to head space for the 45acp/AR, some with or without moon clips... Has this gun always been in the family? Anychance the chambers have seen a reamer?

[olivestab]

Thanks for the Info guys.
First off, what does "slugging" the barrel mean? -I googled this and found out. Ill have to update you guys on what I find.
I've only been in the "gun circle" for 2 years now, and reloading talk is a whole other world.

As far as reaming goes,
One guy told me to try and fit a quarter through the cylinder and the backing of the gun.
The quarter wouldn't fit, so he said that it has not been reamed, and 45acp/45 long colt would not work.
Although, I have never physically tried to fit a 45 round in myself.

(quick back story: My father in law told me it just shot normal 45 from what he remembered.
I challenged his statement after I read about it online and learning that it was made for .455
-Also, my grandmother in law who owned the gun at the time, tried to sell it, and the gun stores wouldn't even buy it off her, they said it would only be worth $70 bucks...)

Keep in mind, I have never even seen any reloading equipment before in my life.
So I don't have access to any of these tools to tinker around with long colts, .454's, and other cases to make 455.
My hopes are to just get my hands on some boxes of fiocchi 455, and save the brass and have someone reload it for me.
(I might purchase the actual rounds online too so they don't have to make them.)

This is why I thought about getting a second cylinder.
1. to shoot 45 long colt, 2.to preserve the quality by saving an original cylinder I can switch back to for .455.

[Piedmont]

olivestab, Five to ten years ago and older gentleman was at the range with an old Smith or Colt .455. He had bought the .455 ammo and we go talking and he let me look at his revolver. The chambers looked deep to me and I asked if I could take it inside to see if it would chamber .45 Colt ammo. It did. This meant someone rechambered it. He was happy because he didn't have to jump through hoops to get ammo, but as you mentioned in your first post, his revolver was worth less.

You want to slug and match the cylinder throats, not the barrel. If you will listen, we will teach you. You seem to be running off in all directions.

[Piedmont]

PS: Take your revolver, unloaded, in a case to a gunstore that sells .45 Colt ammo. Have the clerk behind the counter see if .45 Colts will fit and allow the cylinder to close. They should be willing to that for no charge. If .45 Colts fit and allow closure, it was rechambered to .45 Colt.

[olivestab]

PS: Take your revolver, unloaded, in a case to a gunstore that sells .45 Colt ammo. Have the clerk behind the counter see if .45 Colts will fit and allow the cylinder to close. They should be willing to that for no charge. If .45 Colts fit and allow closure, it was rechambered to .45 Colt.
Yeah I am all over the place, Im just a little impatient, been waiting for 9months to get some ammo in this gun.
At this point im trying to cut corners.

Back on topic:
I took the gun to the store and they tried to fit in a 45 long colt.
It would not go in all the way, and there was roughly a centimeter left of the cartridge sticking out of the cylinder.

[Piedmont]

Your mention before of the guy with the quarter saying this hadn't been rechambered......what I think he was referring to was he didn't think anyone had converted it to .45 Auto Rim. That one has a real thick rim and would necessitate removing metal from the back of the cylinder (actually this might need to be done to a much lesser extent with a .45 Colt conversion too, because the .455 has an abnormally thin rim). Those Buffalo Arms cases at least used to be remanufactured .45 Colts. They are shortened and the rim is trimmed from the front. Whether they reamed them too, I don't know.

One more possibility is someone might have put a .45 ACP reamer to it. That won't affect the rims if they didn't make way for Auto Rims. Grapeshot down in the Swappin & Sellin has one like yours that has been deepened for .45 ACPs. You will do the same check you did with .45 Colt ammo--see if they go in and the cylinder will close.

I didn't realize from your initial post or two that you were not a reloader. Be thankful this isn't 1985. You can get cases for anything nowadays. So just get cases and dies, the bullets to load will be the easy part. You have to learn to reload, but most of us think that is fun. Even if you decide not to cast, you will be able to get the correct size bullets. People on this board have that all worked out.

If you feel like it you might mention where in the country you are located (not an address, but a city or town). I know if you were real close to me I would tell you come over to the house and measure your cylinder throats for you so you would know what size bullets to get. You will want to match the original bullet weight, which I think is 265 grains, so your reloads hit to the sights. They are sighted in for the weight of the standard service ammunition and you have a fixed sight gun, so make it easy on yourself and use bullets around that weight.

[Piedmont]

olivestab, I completely misunderstood you. This craziness we are going through with ammo right now will abate. You WILL be able to buy loaded ammo for your .455 again. It will cost a considerable amount to get into reloading, not to mention bullet casting. So you can wait and buy ammo. Save your cases regardless of whether you are planning to reload. You may change your mind or you can sell your once-fired brass on a forum.

I don't know how sentimental you are or what you thought of whomever you inherited that revolver from. There is always the option of selling it and buying a .38 special or .357 Magnum with cheaper and much more available ammo. You know by now your gun is worth a substantial amount of money to the right person. If you sell it it will be worth more unalterred, as you know. I like older stuff like that because history interests me greatly. Lots of people couldn't care less. Older guns are hard to get parts for if something breaks. Weigh your options.

[Texantothecore]

olivestab, I completely misunderstood you. This craziness we are going through with ammo right now will abate. You WILL be able to buy loaded ammo for your .455 again. It will cost a considerable amount to get into reloading, not to mention bullet casting. So you can wait and buy ammo. Save your cases regardless of whether you are planning to reload. You may change your mind or you can sell your once-fired brass on a forum.

I don't know how sentimental you are or what you thought of whomever you inherited that revolver from. There is always the option of selling it and buying a .38 special or .357 Magnum with cheaper and much more available ammo. You know by now your gun is worth a substantial amount of money to the right person. If you sell it it will be worth more unalterred, as you know. I like older stuff like that because history interests me greatly. Lots of people couldn't care less. Older guns are hard to get parts for if something breaks. Weigh your options.

A Lee handpress will set you back about $35.00 and is a fully functional press and a heck of a lot of fun. The dies should be about $30.00 from Lee also. Cheap entertainment.

[rintinglen]

A Lee handpress will set you back about $35.00 and is a fully functional press and a heck of a lot of fun. The dies should be about $30.00 from Lee also. Cheap entertainment.
+1
But be careful--it is addicting. "Just need a set of dies...and a bigger powder measure...and a case trimmer...and a mold...or two...and, and, and"

But on a serious note, for way less than the cost of two boxes of .455 ammo--last I saw was Fiocchi at 59.95! a box--you can get a simple hand press, or a used single station press, a set of dies and then hunt for some brass, at least one box worth. By the time you reload it twice, you'll have paid for your press, dies, with a bit to spare towards the cost of components. Somebody here will sell you some .456 boolits. Powder and primers are in short supply right now, but eventually ole Bummer will stop selling guns and ammo and availabilty will return to more normal levels. If you plan on shooting your inheritance even to the tune of five boxes over the years, investing in a cheap reloading set could pay dividends better than you get from Wall Street.

If you have a drill press, a hack saw, a dial caliper, some thin wall half inch or 5/8 tubing, a chamfering tool and a file, and PATIENCE, you can convert 45 colt brass to useful 455 brass.
You want the case to end up .780 inches long. So, first we make a simple cut off jig. Measure, cut and chamfer the edges on a piece of tubing that will slide over your casing. With the tubing resting firnly and squarely against the front face of the rim, you want the top to be roughly .79 inches from the base of the cartridge. If you are dealing with regular 45 colt brass, the rim thickness should be pretty close to .060, so your jig should be about .73 long. With the jig on a piece of brass, chuck the mouth of the case into thee drill press so there is just enough room between the jaws of the chuck and the top of the jig to insert your hacksaw blade. Turn on the press, and carefully cut the case off even with the top of your jig. Safety Glasses are a good Idea here. Repeat as necessary until you have shortened all your brass.
The next thing to do is thin the rims. .455 rims are supposed to be .035, not .060, so about .025 will have to come off the FRONT face of the rim. If you have a lathe, good on you. That makes it very easy to turn the rims down. I don't have a lathe, so I used my Drill press and a needle file. I used a piece of the cut off casing to make a tool to measure the rim thickness. I cut a slot a loose .035" wide (I made mine a tad on the large side, IIRC) to use as a gauge. Then I started chucking cases into my drill pres and filing them to the desired thin-ness. Bring patience, each case will require several minutes as you stop and check thickness with your gauge. You don't want to make it too thin. Once you are done, you'll want to true up your case mouths.
Order a lee hand trimmer kit, with 45 colt and 45 GAP gage holder sets, SKU's 90401, 90163, and 90224. Use the 45 Colt holdr and the 45 GAP gage, together withe the cutter. To keep from over-shortening your brass, put a .020 shim under the 45 gap gage ( an appropriate sized washer, filed to thickness, works just fine.)
TADA
After no more than two days work, and with the purchase of about 25.00 in tooling, you have 100 cases ready to load. And you can make more anytime you want!
It ain't easy being different.

[PB234]

I think you can buy 455 Webley cases which I think is the same thing from Graff & Sons and that they are made by Hornady. I would not mess with changing it at all as it will wreck the value of the pistol and for what it was made for 455 Webley is fully capable. Cheap Lee Hand press about 30 or 40 dollars and a set of Lee Dies about the same. Entertaining cartridge and really a lot of fun in an old Webley. Probably lots of fun in your pistol too.

I bought cases from Graff a few months ago and Webley loads are mild so the brass will last about forever. I don't have any experience with the 455 S&W or Colt pistols, but the 455 in a Webley likes soft boolits pushed slowly. Think mild Unique loads. A vendor here (Matt's Bullets) sells the right boolit for the round.

[PB234]

These are good out of a Webley: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Swaged_Lead_Bullets_it-157321.aspx?CAT=4144

[olivestab]

I really appreciate the responses. I was set back yesterday so gotta catch up.
First order of business: I'm in RHODE ISLAND.
so if anyone is wiling to help for free, showing the ropes and stuff, I would greatly appreciate it.

Second: I am fully aware of how much this gun is worth, and what I could compensate for it by selling it.
My wife would shoot me herself with this gun if I tried to sell it.
Her grandmother handed it down to me, I know It sounds touching but SHE was trying to get rid of it LOL.
Anyways, it has alot of sentimental value because she passed away a few months back, and I cant bring myself to even MENTION the idea of selling it.

Third:
I know horndays stopped making the 455.
I would only buy a press kit If I was mass producing my own 455 to rely on for a war, but I plan on seriously stocking up on 22s 9s 45acps and various rifle rounds when it comes to it, because they are less expensive and more available than the 455.

My goal is to make sure the gun can fire properly with the right ammo (455),
Once I do that, Im probably gonna put it on display and have the ammo safe somewhere for an emergency.

I seem to check the right places, at the wrong time, because every online retailer is out of stock.
The ammo is made by fiocchi, however I cant seem to order any, so Im forced to jump through many hoops to get some ammo for the gun.

Reloading seems very fun and I would love to do it, but honestly Im in the business of stocking up right now.
If you guys think buying some reloading equipment would be a good idea (not just for 455 but for other rounds)
than I guess Ill have to make that investment!

[45 2.1]

Reloading seems very fun and I would love to do it, but honestly Im in the business of stocking up right now. If you guys think buying some reloading equipment would be a good idea (not just for 455 but for other rounds) than I guess Ill have to make that investment!

Starline makes some of the different "Cowboy" caliber brass, which is basically a shorter 45 Colt case body. Look at the chamber depth in your cylinder. Most all of the older British caliber handguns were set up for the longer 455 Colt & Eley cases. I expect those Starline cases could be used with just some rim thinning. Call them and ask for a few samples of each type to see if they will work.

[The Virginian]

I think the .45 Cowboy would cut the trimming to length step out of it. When you mention a press kit are you referring to a kit you use in a drill press or one the flattens the rims to size?

[Nueces]

The sole source for Cowboy 45 Special brass is here:

http://cowboy45specialbrass.blogspot.com

[Dutchman]

When you mention a press kit are you referring to a kit you use in a drill press or one the flattens the rims to size?

No.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-kits/single-stage-reloading-kits/

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-kits/turret-press/

[ddixie884]

Rintinglen, I really enjoyed your post. I think it would be useful for anyone who needs a few cases to use in an old revolver. A gun ain't any good without ammo.

[Wayne Smith]

Olivestab, step very carefully. Reloading is an addiction, and casting boolits is even worse. There is just something about that pot of liquid metal! However, reloading and boolit casting allows me to load a box of 50 45ACP for about $2.50! I don't know your age, but if you amortize your investment in equipment over 40 to 60 years it is literally pennies. My wife is a math genius and not into shooting but she sees the value. If you buy bullets and just reload I'm guessing, and literally guessing because I haven't bought bullets in years, that you are looking at more like $7.00 a box of reloaded ammo. You can get a lot of shooting for the dollar that way.