Lyman 429421 mould

[Gibbs44]

I'm giving casting another try. I have a Lyman 429421, and plan on shooting these from a Ruger SBH Hunter, mainly for practice. For an all around alloy for hunting and target practice, would you go with straight wheel weights, or a Lyman #2 mix. Also, I've been thinking 2400 or H-110, any suggestions for loads.

For my hunting applications, I mainly hunt in wooded area where 75 yards is about maximum in the right area, and everything would have to be perfect, hence the 2400 or H-110. In this case would you even stick with the mould I have, or go for something with a gas check? I've been thinking about picking up the Lee 310 mould anyway. Any insight would be helpful.

[runfiverun]

ww's and a little soft lead thrown in will do what you want, with the 2400 powder.
you'll want to size them about 430-432.

[longbow]

Good luck sizing to 0.430" - 0.432" if it is like my 429421 mould. Mine casts at 0.429". Otherwise it would be a good boolit.

I was using mine in my Marlin 1894 which added to the undersize boolit issue due to typical oversize Marlin barrels. It leaded like mad and wasn't at all accurate. I rectified that by getting moulds that cast larger.

Have you slugged your barrel?

What size do the boolits drop from the mould? You will want at least 0.001" over groove diameter.

Longbow

[Gibbs44]

I've not slugged my barrel, I kind of went at this bass ackwards, and got the mould, sizer, lube, and wheel weights, and then said, "Well now what." After a long while, I'm trying to rectify that. I think I might need to slug my barrel as you say. Should my barrel require the .432, I guess that would take a custom mould?

[runfiverun]

i'd be inclined to just make some boolits first.
most revolvers do fine at 430.
lapping a mold ain't all that hard.

[Idaho Mule]

I agree with longbow on this one. Mine casts at .429 as well and the throats are at .432. They shoot ok, but certainly not to the potential that I believe is capable. Firearm is a RBH with 5.5" brl. I believe I would be better off with a mould that throws a bigger boolit as the barrel slugs right at .430. Can a person succesfully lap that mould out to where it will drop a .432 boolit?? JW

[Larry Gibson]

Fathom that! A 429421 (note the 429?) casts at .429 and is not a good bullet..............

I'd mix 2% tin with the COWWs and shoot that alloy over magnum level loads of 2400 or H110. Actually I've been doing that for many years in my .44s including several Rugers. I'd add 2% tin and then add the 50% lead as runfiverun suggests for "practice" loads over 9 - 10 gr of Unique. That will save on WWs and powder.

BTW; I blissfully shot many a .429 sized 429421 over magnum loads of H4227 and 2400 for many years. Back in the day a good S&W and Ruger would put 6 into 1" or so at 25 yards (my eyes aren't that good any more with the iron sights). Then I read in the gun rags and on the internet that you can only shoot cylinder bore patterns unless the bullets are sized to the cylinder throats.....well dang it if my Ruger has .431 throats and my Hawes .433! So I jumped through hoops casting, trading and buying new moulds trying to get on that woul drop at .433. Well I did and it didn't shoot as well in the Hawes as the old .429 429421s and was indeed cylinder bore in the Ruger. With the front driving band at .432 it wouldn't chamber in the Colt Anaconda's .429 throats..........Finally kept the RCBS 44-250-K, the Lyman 429244 the Lee TL430-240-SWC and the Lyman 429640 and size the SWCs at .430 and they shoot as well as any other size in the Ruger, Colt and Hawes. Have to size the 42640's at .429 so the will chamber in the Colt Anaconda though. I just use the .430 sized cast in any Ruger and they shoot as well as any cast bullet "sized" to the throats. Even though I have a full set of "pins" I hardly ever measure .44 Magnum throats anymore. I just load up .430 sized cast and go shooting with excellent results. I'll also shoot commercial cast at .429 with excellent accuracy and not worry about it. That's just my experience over 45 years with the 44 Magnum in numerous revolvers.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

yeah you can lap .002 out pretty easily.
my old square grooved 429 mold makes 432 easily,it was sprayed with mold release when i got it to make the boolits closer to 430.

[Gibbs44]

Thanks for the info. It sounds like all I can do is load up, and send em flying, and see what happens. Change it when it doesn't work. I don't know that what I have won't work at the moment.

[Blammer]

straight ww's for me and 19gr of 2400 sized to .430 (and I have yet to slug my 44)

[EMC45]

Straight Clip ons for me sized @ .430 in my 7.5in. SBH over 19 or 20gr. 2400. It is accurate.

[1bluehorse]

I find this interesting...just when I thought I was starting to get a handle on this cast boolit stuff I run into this...so now we don't size to throat dia any longer ?? All the info on here I've been reading for the last couple years is now "obsolete"....just size to bore (or somewhere close) and add a little tin and let er' rip..??????? Can we go back to shooting the commercial hard casts with crayon lubes too..Sometimes you guys just confuse the he!! outa me..

[Iowa Fox]

If your 429421 is an old Ideal you won't know what diameter bullets it will drop until you try it. My old Ideal in the orange & black box with metal corners drops them at 432.

[RickinTN]

I have an old Lyman single cavity 429421. With an alloy of coww + 2% tin it drops a bullet that measures .431+ and sizes about 40% in a .432 sizer. I don't know how old the mold is, but I've owned it for close to 30 years and it was used when I bought it. I've not done any serious testing with this bullet in my SBH, but with Trailboss in a mild load it is as good as my old eyes and I are. I have no idea what my throats or bore measure.
I have lapped an aluminum Lee mold which dropped out of round .429 x .431 bullets to bullets that will size .432 and are much closer to round. Since the 429421 is a non-gas checked design at least you don't have to worry about making the gas check shank too big.
Since you don't know what diameter bullet your mold will cast, I would probably cast a few, measure and try them. The gun will tell you whether it likes them or not.
Good Luck,
Rick

[Idaho Mule]

Didn't mean to get in the OP's way here but I sure appreciate all the info guys. My mould is of newer manufacture for whatever that is worth. It has been a pain ever since new so I won't be out anything if I some how mess it up. I am going to try r5r's advice and try to lap it out a little bit. Then I will cast of #2 alloy, or close to it, use some more 2400 and see what I get. One thing I believe I have been doing wrong is trying to tame the 44 down too much, most of my handgun loads have been in the 1000-1100 fps range. I believe if I can get that boolit a "little bit" larger, and push it harder it will do better. Larry, your response was very informative, thank you and all others. JW

[chickenstripe]

I have both molds, and size to .430, they fit the cylinder throats perfect.

I haven't worked up a load for the 429421 yet, only shot a few.

However, the lee 310 starts getting really accurate at just about my threshold for pain. 1" @ 50yds and 1150fps out of a 7.5" SBH Hunter.....2400 powder, can't remember the load.

The Lee 310 requires a higher front sight, which I couldn't find for the Hunter, but I have a scope on it.

I run it out of a 4-5/8" SBH for bear protection, just over 1000fps.

That big flat meplat shure looks mean sitting flush with the front of the cylinder!!!!

[GLL]

Find an old IDEAL 429421 ! They all seem to cast at 0.432” which provides plenty of “meat” to play with.
The most recent LYMAN versions are commonly undersize !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/E574E14FBE964F2/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/04DCFAB757B5561/orig.jpg

[LAH]

I have two Lyman 429421 four cavity molds. These are from 2003. With 92-6-2 alloy the .431 sizer just cleans them up. With COWW the .430 sizer just cleans them up. I find either shoot just fine in my 29-3 or Super Blackhawk when using 20 grains of 2400. I say cast them, size them, & shoot them..............then you will know.

[Larry Gibson]

I find this interesting...just when I thought I was starting to get a handle on this cast boolit stuff I run into this...so now we don't size to throat dia any longer ?? All the info on here I've been reading for the last couple years is now "obsolete"....just size to bore (or somewhere close) and add a little tin and let er' rip..??????? Can we go back to shooting the commercial hard casts with crayon lubes too..Sometimes you guys just confuse the he!! outa me..

Not what I meant.......

Some years back Ross Seyfried(SP) when down to Australia with a custom recylindered Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt. He had it load with stout loads using a 300+ gr 45-70 bullet sized down. He killed a water buffalo with it. It was a good choice at the time though not the only choice. A very nice article about it was published in Guns & Ammo. Everyone jumped on the band wagon and now a 44 Magnum with a Keith bullet won’t kill a little deer anymore let alone the puny 357 and 41 magnums…….gots to have a 300+ gr bullet with wrist breaking recoil or it will bounce off the hide…….that’s a slight exaggeration but
the point being that many go overboard on everything based on one useful use of something.

Think not? Well some years back a writer published an article on Colt SAA’s in .45 Colt showing that most of them had throats .004 - .005” over the barrel groove diameter and that’s why accuracy wasn’t great with them when using .451 - .452 cast bullets. He then used larger bullets sized to the throats .454+ and accuracy did improve but it still wasn’t great. Now that has morphed into “we have to size to the throats” on all revolvers. Having a .44 Magnum with a .429 barrel and .431 throats just will not shoot at all with bullets not sized to .431 - .433….right? Well, that’s what the pundits tell us anyway. I’ve had numerous conversation the last few years with many who went to the expense and effort to get larger sized cast that were at throat diameter or larger yet they found no Improvement in accuracy……

I have conducted a lot of accuracy testing with revolvers having issue sights, dot sights, scope sights and from a Ransom Rest. I have used standard factory revolvers and a couple custom ones. I have found that unless you have a revolver capable of knowing the accuracy difference between a cast bullet within .001 - .002” of the throat diameter and one at or over throat diameter it won’t. Custom recylindered revolvers or Freedom’s or BFRs can tell the difference but many times it is slight and only useful at long ranges. The average Ruger or other revolver won’t know the difference.

We run into the same thing with milsurp rifles and many bench rest loading techniques for accuracy. The milsurp rifle, with you using the issue sights, just isn’t going to know any such advanced accuracy loading techniques were done and accuracy won’t be any better if you’d not done many of them. In other words we are prone to do a lot of things that really aren’t necessary, especially with the advent of the internet and “experts” like me (yes I’ll include myself in that category but you can take or leave what I’m saying)

So back to the thread and my original post; if you have good cast bullets properly lubed sized to within .002” of the throats over a good load then they will probably shoot as good as you and your factory revolver will shoot. Jumping through hoops to get the bullet at throat diameter probably won’t give any more accuracy. Now if the mould casts to throat diameter or larger then you might as well just size to throat diameter anyway. But to get all worked up about a cast bullet at or less than .002 throat diameter makes for good internet chatter ………..

No, sizing to throat diameter is not “obsolete”, it’s just not usually necessary………..Size as large as the bullet will let you but if it’s not at but within .002 of the throat then stop worrying about it and go shooting………

If using COWWs adding the tin to WWs improves the castability of the alloy and will harden the alloy because the tin combines with the antimony making it go into solution with the lead better, i.e. it just makes a better alloy, especially for magnum level loads with PB’d cast like the 429421.

BTW; I’ll shoot all the commercial cast .429 sized bullets anyone wants to give me. Some will have the “crayon lube” on them and I’ll TL them in LLA or wash off the hard lube and relubed with BAC or an NRA 50/50 lube. They will then shoot just fine over 8.5 or 9 gr Unique out of my Ruger with .431 throats, my Hawes with .433 throats and my Colt Anaconda with .429 throats. They will also shoot just fine with the same load in my 44-40 Ruger with .430 throats. And there is no doubt they would do just fine in any other .44 Magnum because they have……….

Yes indeed, there is a he!! of a lot of confusion out there. If you can shoot like 44man or a couple others then you might get excited about .002 or less diameter. But me……I’ll just load ‘em up and “let er' rip” and be happy because it’s as accurate as it’s gonna get……..

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Actually Larry I can't shoot like 44man but I can tell a difference between a .429 and a .432 bullet in my Super Redhawk. A .429 bullet will shoot OK but will also lead the heck out of the breech end of my barrel. 50 rounds and it is very, very noticeable. It cleans out quickly enough with a few passes of a brush and steel wool. If I use a .432 bullet it doesn't lead at all. None.
I use the bigger bullet because my handgun prefers it.

Same load, same lube, very similar bullet. One is a Lyman 429421 the other a Lee GB of the same design but it drops at .434, easy to size to .432. Lube was both Felix and Carnuba Red. Same results either way.

My standard practice is to always listen to MY guns. Larry's are OK with a .429 bullet, mine wants bigger. Guess which we each do?

[9.3X62AL]

I do run a Tale Of The Tape on a new-to-me revolver, and generally find that boolits sized at or just slightly over throat diameter shoot pretty well and don't cause leading. Naturally, there are exceptions to every "rule"--like the 1990s BisHawk in 45 Colt with the .449" throats and .452" grooves. Throat honing rehabbed that One-Boolit-Wonder into a very tractable wheelgun.

Per SAAMI drawings of the 44 Special and Magnum, the .433" throat is on spec. Mould makers need to address these sorts of vagaries, and perhaps not run reamers and cutters past real-world limits.

[Larry Gibson]

My standard practice is to always listen to MY guns. Larry's are OK with a .429 bullet, mine wants bigger.

Always good advise and I've no problem with bigger, as I mentioned, IF the mould drops them bigger then why not? However, I've shot a lot of .429s in a lot of .44s and have found leading is more a function of the alloy and lube instead of the sizing. Always some exceptions as yours may be. I can say I've shot many a 429421 cast of COWWs + 2% tin or Lyman #2 alloys sized at .429 and lubed with Javelina over 22 gr 2400 or 23 gr H4227 in a lot of .44s over the years and never ever had any leading, even a couple standard and super Redhawks. I must be lucky or something........

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Luck may be a factor.
That revolver and mould drove me nuts for years. I tried different lubes. I tried harder or softer bullets. I tried Unique, 2400, H110, Red Dot, and who knows what else. Mag cases or specials. It just leaded the throats and the end of the barrel.

I had a chance to get an extra GB mould and jumped on it. Bet you know what I shoot now!

My Lee 310 casts about .430 and it doesn't lead. The check may make a difference.

Every gun is an individual. It is up to the shooter to decide what does, or doesn't, work. Heck, I have a Marlin 1894c that won't shoot any of the "works great" loads. Fed what it likes and all is well.

[runfiverun]

not really.
it's all about getting the boolit in the barell with OUT getting gas flowing past the base.
do that in anything and you'll be fine.
blow all the lube off in the throat or in the cylinder gap and you got problems.

[btroj]

So, if the key is getting the bullet into the barrel without gas leakage the fact my Lyman cast a front band .002 smaller than the other bands may be a part of the problem. The front band wasn't even close to cleaning up when run thru a .429 die.

[telebasher]

My experience mirrors Larry's exactly, to a "T". Back in the mid 70's, early 80's when silhouette shooting was going strong, I was shooting ACWW@ .429 over 21 gr 2400 for the long range course and 8.5 Unique for the Hunters Pistol course. Both loads are sub 1"@25 yds and maintain that accuracy well beyond my shooting capabilities. As far as needing a larger diameter bullet read up on Beagling a mould. Also Erik Ohlen can open it up for you. Check his website for details . FWIW.

[Alan]

Short answer, try it and see how it shoots. Unless you want to shoot Mastadon-class loads all the time, use #2400. It throttles back nicely all the way down to .44 Spl class loads. From what you describe, the most accurate load you can find over 950 fps will do anything you want to do.

[GaryN]

I got a 429421 four banger that was casting at .428. My barrel slugged at .4315. My throats were were .4325. It leaded like crazy. I had Eric Ohlen open it up to .4325. Now it doesn't lead at all. And I don't have to buy gas checks.

[slohunter]

I seemed to lucked out this time. My 1980's Lyman 429421 bullets mike out a .431. Lyman should be aware of the undersized mold.
Happy Shootin.

[Coonazz]

Good luck sizing to 0.430" - 0.432" if it is like my 429421 mould. Mine casts at 0.429". Otherwise it would be a good boolit.

Longbow



I seem to have the same problem as a lot of others do with these moulds. Mine drops at .428 with ACWW+2% SN. Beagling opened it up to .431, thankfully.

John

[Dale53]

I've shot a bushel basket of Lyman's 429421 from a friend's four cavity mould - it casts plenty big to size at .430" for ALL of my .44's. Later, I got my own H&G #503 (similar to the 429421) and now use a Mihec (MP Molds) for the H&G#503. I still size to .430" and have had excellent results in a number of .44's (both Special and Magnum). It is a very fine design for hunting as well as target use.

The most important thing is to have you cylinder throats bigger than your groove diameter. Any less, and I have had leading. Won't bore you will the stories but correcting undersized throats have paid off big time for me in eliminating accuracy robbing leading.

FWIW
Dale53