New take on "light and fast" 65 grain .45 ACP load.

[429421Cowboy]

Thought you guys might like this one.




Got it from a forum i used to be pretty active on before i came here.

They seem to have deleted the thread after it got no responses and the member was banned after just over a week of his know-it-all attitude.

The gist of it was; took 230 grain JHP's, heated them till the cores melted out, filled the resulting empty jacket with epoxy and used "incredible amounts" of Bullseye to get the slide on his 1911 to cycle, for a claimed 2200 fps. He also stated that "penitration would likely be limited, but it just proves what potential we could be missing in pistol rounds"

What do you guys think of this :roll:. Aside from the fact that it might be slightly lacking in SD and not make for much of a brush buster :kidding:

[gunfan]

Rather limited applications for such a "light and fast" thing, isn't there?

Scott

[Dale53]

>>>What do you guys think of this .<<<
Not very much! In the first place, with no pressure tested data and "Incredible Amounts of Bullseye" you might well get more than you bargained for.

In my 1911's I get all of the performance I want with a Mihec 200 gr H.P., a Mihec version of the H&G #68 (200 gr SWC), or a Lee 230 gr TC (conventional lube).

In my 625's I use all of the above plus NOE's version of the Lyman 454424 (250 gr Keith) at 900+ fps.

After about 200,000 rounds of .45 ACP under my belt I have no need to "wander the fringes".

Just my opinion, of course...

Dale53

[Bwana]

First off, which site was it? Secondly, that's old hat. Thirdly, some of us "wander the fringes" just to see what's out there. Of course being solidly grounded in the type of territory you are "scouting" helps keep you safe.

[Artful]

I'm reminded of the "plastic" bullets the air marshal's were issued in their attempts to make a stopper for highjackers but wouldn't penetrate the skin of the aircraft -
shooting into oil based clay (precursor to Ballistic Gel) it made HUGE shallow cavities as the bullets fragmented - the fed's gave up on those for real ammo after it was proven that a bullet that did get thru the skin of a plane didn't much cause the plane or other passengers much of a problem.

[gunfan]

I'm reminded of the "plastic" bullets the air marshal's were issued in their attempts to make a stopper for highjackers but wouldn't penetrate the skin of the aircraft -
shooting into oil based clay (precursor to Ballistic Gel) it made HUGE shallow cavities as the bullets fragmented - the fed's gave up on those for real ammo after it was proven that a bullet that did get thru the skin of a plane didn't much cause the plane or other passengers much of a problem.

Those were produced by Mag-Safe (now a subsidiary of Cor-Bon ammunition.) I both Silver and Blue caps over the shot-filled epoxy within the copper gilding metal jacket. They are still being produced at less than affordable prices.

Scott

[Artful]

Actually I was thinking of
http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam.html
http://www.skymarshalstory.com/2008/07/sky-marshal-bullets-27.html
Glaser / Mag-Safe were after the Super-Vel rounds - and I understand now they use gold dots

[bassnbuck]

A couple of years ago a co-worker gave me a few 45 acp loaded with aluminum bullets. From what I understand they weigh approx 117 gr. and will clock at about 1500+ fps. I have no desire to shoot them. Has anyone seen or used these?

[Artful]

Does it look like this?
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/images/45ACP_Agu_117gr_FHP3.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/article2.htm

.45 ACP Aguila 117gr "High Power" Fragmenting Hollow Point

The Aguila .45 ACP 117gr High Power cartridge uses what appears to be a cast aluminum bullet, which has three external serrations, spaced at regular intervals, on the sides of the ogive to facilitate bullet fragmentation. The bullet has a straight-walled cavity 0.225" in diameter and approximately 1/2-inch deep.

We separately chronographed five rounds using an S&W 4506 handgun. The 4506 has a 5-inch barrel. Average velocity of the five rounds was 1498 fps.

We initially attempted to test the Aguila High Power cartridge using a gelatin block measuring 6x6x16 inches in size. Two test bullets were fired. The sharp angle of divergence between the fragments resulted in almost all of the fragments exiting the sides or top of the block. Both shots resulted in the capture of only one fragment.

In order to capture all the fragments, testing was performed using a gelatin block measuring 10x10x18 inches. We successfully tested four bullets in bare gelatin. Due to the bullet's deep cavity we felt it unnecessary to test it in denim covered gelatin because we believe the denim cloth will not affect terminal performance.

On impact with the gelatin block, each bullet penetrated about 1 inch and then fragmented into four pieces, consisting of three ogive/shank fragments and one base fragment. The three ogive/shank fragments separated from each other at marked angles, and came to rest at a distance of between 6-8 inches apart for all test shots.

[bassnbuck]

Artful, yes that is the same info. I found, did you ever shoot any?

[Artful]

Nope - I can't afford to shoot a lot of factory ammo.

[429421Cowboy]

I didn't really want to say since it doesn't matter and there are users on here that frequent there as well, but it was Rugerforum.net.
The guy was a real jerk about all his answers, seemed to think this load put him into the same league as a small centerfire .22 caliber cartridge. He also was a huge fan of the "light and fast" idea, telling everybody they were foolish for not using 90 grain JHP in 9mm as their SD load, how many raccoons and groundhogs he had shot with RN or RFN bullets or boolits only to have them run off or need a second shot (DUH!) so he was convinced that light and fast quick opening HP's are the only thing that will hurt a bad guy or critter. Called me out and wanted to know exactly how many, at what angle, range, entry-exit size, photos all that when i said in a different thread that i had seen many critters killed with a Keith or WFN and liked solid boolits for hunting. His whole basis for his theory seemed to be around his "tested" "failures" with factory .45 ACP ball ammo on small game.

Just so everybody knows, I am NOT going to try this, there were so many things wrong with his whole post and the science behind it, coupled with my own experience with 240-300 grain boolits at 900-1000 FPS that i would be scared to shoot next to this guy at the range, let alone use one of his loads!

[44man]

I will stick with all of you! I like REAL boolits.
I have killed tons of deer but one time I seen a fox coming very fast past my tree stand. I got the .44 cocked and swung fast on him. The 320 gr LBT slammed him to the ground better then a sledge would. Not a wiggle. I sat and stared at him---first, how the heck did I even hit the thing? Then the affect of the big boolit crept in. I believe I seen smoke coming out of the fox!

[Larry Gibson]

Relatively old idea and it works if done correctly. Simple expedient to make your own "glazer Safety" type slugs and ammo. I've done the same except I mix #12 lead shot with the epocy. Done with 45 ACP, 44 SPL & mag, 38 SPL and 357 mag, 9mm and 380 ACP. Makes for very good fast, low penetrating rounds usefull for self defense (no need for the commercial vs handload argument ok). I loadsed them back in the late '70s & early '80s. The 45 ACP bullets I made using a 200 gr J bullet weighed 130 gr and I pushed them at 1400 25 fps out of a M1911 and it didn't take an "incredable amount of Bullseye". My loads have pressure tested safe BTW. Light weight the jacket he used filled with just epoxy was I don't know but I do question 2200 fps. BTW; it does not take much psi (regardless the type or amount of powder used) to cycle a M1911. If the load is worked up so the action just cycles it is probably well within safe psi.

The guy may have been a jerk and he may have been "walking the fringes" but that doesn't necessarily negate what he was doing or make it hazardous.

Larry Gibson

[Case Stuffer]

Recoil required to cycle a 1911 45ACP depends a great deal not only on powder charge ,type,bullet weight but also also recoil spring(s). A full bore 230 gr. hardball ,JHP,cast RN,SWC will beat a Gold Cup set up for bulls eye to death in short order and a BE target load will not cycle a IPSC 45 setup with a comp.duel srrings,full length guide and buffers.

Many years ago at a IPSC match the match director pulled a surprise carry only match. There I was with my IPSC match tuned 45 with LSWC 200 bullets ready to go and a AMT Hardball setting in my truck. Shot the match with the Hardballer but had so many stove pipes that I felt like it was a training drill. If one shoots semies ammo needs to be matched to the gun or gun needs to bve matched to the ammo. Not every load cycles as it should.

[tek4260]

I figured y'all were talking about the Thunder Zaps from Second Chance body armour guy.

[gunfan]

Glaser Safety Slugs without shot in the epoxy. What appears to be an experiment appears, on the surface, a bit futile.

Scott

[ReloaderEd]

I purchased a Lee 45 acp mold in 155 gr and pushed it as fast as possible with an almost full case of bullseye in the 45acp.. It shot fast, not 2200 fps but in the glock the slide stop would engage from the roiund going off, worked ok in the 1911 but I consider the "test" a failure, did not like the results. Accuracey was ok but I dont think the light bullet was practicable. be safe

[chickenstripe]

The only odd, light/fast thing I thought was pretty cool was a 7.62 X 25 Tokarev loaded with saboted 0.224 FMJ's..... 2200fps or so if I remember correctly.

Cycled fine, accuracy was about 4" at 25yds.

[Artful]

I still have a handful of those 7.62x25's around - I should see if anyone makes a sabot that will work with the AP .224 bullets.

[gunfan]

The only odd, light/fast thing I thought was pretty cool was a 7.62 X 25 Tokarev loaded with saboted 0.224 FMJ's..... 2200fps or so if I remember correctly.

Cycled fine, accuracy was about 4" at 25yds.

Dayum!

[Spector]

I believe Mag-safe made a 96 grain defender load and a 66 grain SWAT load. The SWAT load clocked somewhat over 2100 fps out of my Glock 21.

I made something similar using I think a 300 grain XTP and melting the core out. I refilled it with 5 Minute epoxy and I seem to remember they weighed 61 grains. I pushed them up to a little over 1900 fps. Accuracy was never good for me, but they were really impressive on 3 liter soft drink bottles at around 20' distance. I fired them from my Glock 21 using Federal brass. I tried Win 231 and I think it was Clays that put me over 1900 fps. If you want to impressively destroy milk jugs or plastic soft drink jugs full of water it will certainly flatten them.

Otherwise in 45 ACP I subscribe to Martin Fackler's belief that big and slow is better. A 230 grain bullet or boolit at standard pressures and a velocity of about 825 to 850 fps from my Glock 21. Just in case I want to do more than destroy water filled jugs........Mike

[firefly1957]

I posted a question on this last year i have dies to swage half jacket bullets in .357 & .452 calibers and i can make .452 bullets as light as 117 grs this will cycle my 1911 @ 1275 f/s. What i was asking was if anyone had data for faster safe loads with such a light bullet it seems like these would be good for close range self defense.
I do like the idea of a reasonably lighter bullet in the 45 acp but it should expand or at least breakup in the target. My first tries with the 117 gr bullets had a hard alloy and that light bullet at 1275f/s would go deeper in dry phone books that a 230 gr hard ball load.