H-110 & 429421??

[Edward429451]

I have a good thing going with Lee's 250 gr SWC GC and H-110 but the data was there for the 429421 and since I never tried h-110 under them before, figured now was the time. I gave them a starting load of 24.0 gr and results were superb mathwise, and good accuracywise.

I clocked em at 1448 and they leaded up my 7.5" RH pretty bad, towards the cylinder. I think they're just too fast because the same boolits don't lead at slower speeds. I like the load though. Is the hope for the combo without leading?

H-110 is a "do not reduce starting loads" powder, correct?

Comments?

[DonH]

What is your alloy? My fire-lapped has done OK with 296 and WW 429421s but your mileage may vary on that . Certainly water-dropped WW should be fine with the H-110.
I believe Hodgdon data actually shows a degree of flexibility in charge weights for H-110.

[Bass Ackward]

According to Quickload, it predicted 1432 fps, so the 30,500 psi it lists must be fairly close. Since it predicts perfect world conditions, you higher levels could be coming from the increased sizing in the cone and or the leading.

The real problem is that the pressure peaks at .488 of bullet travel. That puts peak obturating pressure just about where that base is hanging free in mid air in the cone and it is trying to fill this space until it gets support from the steel. Then it has to size (and shape) down again that is apparently too much for the current lube, bore condition balance. At 22.5 grains, peak occurs at .551 which may make enough of a difference .... but you'll drop 100 fps too.

The conventional wisdom is to go slightly harder. If you can't win fair in life .... cheat. A little trick that works for me is to size slightly smaller in these cases. What is slightly smaller? I know this is heresy, but I go as far down as .0005 under bore size. Your base is still going to obturate well. But sometimes this allows the bullet just enough of an easier transition that the base won't flair out too much and create the problem you see. It's the lazy man's way of not having to fire up the pot again if you have hundreds of stock available. :grin:

But my load here runs from 22.5 grains up to 23.5 depending on all the variables when using H-110.

[felix]

No, it is not heresy in absolute terms. All bullets/boolits obturate, and it is only a question of when/amount like you said. You can alter this effect by changing the projectile factors ever so slightly while keeping the same ignition characteristics. However, there is no need to size the entire boolit for these kinds of fun and games. ... felix

[38-55]

HEy BAss,
That's a great idea ! I'm gonna put that in the 'things not to forget file' ! I've always kinda wondered why the guys in the 'good ol' days' sized to bore diameter and maybe your explanation had something to do with that.... The older lyman manual that I have always sized to bore size....hmmmm. Loads always seemed a smidge hot to me too....
I really think your on to something here.
Thanks for sharing... I'm going to be pondering this all day
Stay safe
Calvin

[Bass Ackward]

No, it is not heresy in absolute terms. All bullets/boolits obturate, and it is only a question of when/amount like you said. You can alter this effect by changing the projectile factors ever so slightly while keeping the same ignition characteristics. However, there is no need to size the entire boolit for these kinds of fun and games. ... felix



That's what I like about the Lee 357 160 grain WFN. The nose diameter is .357 and the back two bands are .3595 which get sized to throat. It's like a non-deformed, obturated bullet.

I started designing bullets like this for my PB pistol bullets awhile back and the concept works really well. Not only for size, but obviously it puts the weight even more towards the back. Now I know you aren't a big fan of back heavy bullets, but when I get them that way either through design or hollow pointing, I get much wider accuracy points and better overall results with how I am loading them.

Some other things it does is increases the fold strength of the crimp better and of coarse you get better neck tension with the larger bullet. And it eliminates hard seating ammo and headspace issues, which is my origional reason for doing it.


Calvin,

I hope Ed is able to try this and reports back. This contradiction has always been around. In one place in Sixguns, Elmer says size to bore. Then in another he says it's OK to go .002 or .003 over bore from 44 caliber on up. Then in another he recommends no more than .001 over bore. A lot depended on the dimensional quality of the gun he was probably shooting.

Then when Thompson came out with his 358156 during this same period, it was meant to be easy to hand lube and sized minimally. And those came out around .360 so clearly these were size in the throats in a lot of cases, so we have no .... clear rule to basically go by.

I think this more a product of gun specific issues and bullet design. I have had good results with different designs going from .002 over throat to under bore by .001. Just depended mostly on design. Thompson's bullet has narrow bands which of coarse size relatively easily.

There are always exceptions of coarse, but when I actually play with a design, no matter with handgun or rifle, the faster I want the bullet to go, the smaller in diameter I want to size. HV rifle or handgun is almost never more than .001 over bore.

[Edward429451]

Interesting. My alloy is water quenched WW's sized tp .430 with RR hard lube. They've had time to soften back up again though, being at least 6 months old and maybe a year. They got shelved when I started playing around mixing FWFL, great success there btw.

I never did slug the RH's barrel. I used to size to .429 and it leaded like clockwork, then shortly after finding this place got a .430 sizer and my leading probs were over. I still have the .429 sizer so I will size some down and see what happens. Worst thing can happen is more lead to clean out. It wasnt real bad a few swipes with a lead away cloth and it was clean.

Should I 1/2 size these boolits? Less?
I see the greater latitude of charge weights for H-110 vs WW-296, I'm going to be ok dropping that starting load by 1.5 to 22.5 gr? I don't think I really need that Keith boolit doing 1448 anyway. 1250 would suit me just fine for general use.

H-110 is probably too fast for the heavier 429650 (300gr GC), isn't it?

[DonH]

There should be no problem with H-110 and the 300 grain bullet. I have used much W 296 with both J-word and cast 300s in my Bisley BH.
BTW, water quenched WW reads about the same on my tester as lino so hardness should not be the cause of your leading. You could always give the WW 429421s about 30 min. in a 450 deg oven then quench, at ewhich you will KNOW they are hard enough.
If the RH were mine I would be looking at the forcing cone

[Bass Ackward]

Should I 1/2 size these boolits? Less?
I see the greater latitude of charge weights for H-110 vs WW-296, I'm going to be ok dropping that starting load by 1.5 to 22.5 gr? I don't think I really need that Keith boolit doing 1448 anyway. 1250 would suit me just fine for general use.

H-110 is probably too fast for the heavier 429650 (300gr GC), isn't it?

Ed,

Never jump in the water until you know how deep it is. And never jump in with your hands full would make even less sense. By that I mean, try one thing at a time so you can identify the actual variable. The easiest and my first try would be cutting the charge. Then when I settled on the charge, try size.

22.4 grains is the starting charge in the Speer #11 manual. 23 grains is known as the silhouette load.

And Don has a point. Some guns simply need to be shot with a load that doesn't lead until it can do more without leading. I expect improvement in a wheelgun to occur up to about 10,000 rounds before you can definitively say what the peak performance or limits are going to be. And that figure is based on interlaced copper usage.

[44man]

There are only 2 powders for heavy boolits in the .44, H110 and 296. 4227 will give you problems and anything slower won't work right.
By the way, the standard RH loves H110, the SRH loves 296. Don't ask!
There is more wisdom in the answers here that you should be able to fix your problem, keep us updated.

[Edward429451]

Allright then I'll cut the charge. I was hesitant to do that because from all I've heard 110 & 296 are the same powder with different labels.

If I had a forcing cone issue wouldn't it lead with any boolit? I'm not sure if I've ever put any J bullets down the bore...Couldn't I accomplish the same thing with JB bore paste?

[felix]

Chemicals are never the same unless taken out of the very same barrel (lot). This is not an assumption, but realism. Chemicals cannot be the same unless made from the exact same feedstock and mixed in an identical manner within the same ambient conditions. Possible, but extremely rare, to have two lots which are identical. In the medical field, you can rest assured the chemicals within various lots are much closer in likeness to "spec". ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Allright then I'll cut the charge. I was hesitant to do that because from all I've heard 110 & 296 are the same powder with different labels.

If I had a forcing cone issue wouldn't it lead with any boolit? I'm not sure if I've ever put any J bullets down the bore...Couldn't I accomplish the same thing with JB bore paste?


Ed,

The finish of the cone is the issue. If you were shooting this at lower velocities / pressures, you might not have had the obturation to polish the part that is causing the leading now. Once leading begins, it tends to spread so it could be a very small spot causing the problem if that is it. Once you cut the charge, you will know more.

And JB would be the only way to get at it because a jacketed bullet isn't going to obturate like a cast would. That is even " IF " that is THE issue. While I normally recommend jacketed, since you didn't have problems in the rest of the bore, I doubt jacketed is going to help in this case.

If it eases your mind any, my Lyman #47 manual starts at 19.6 grains with H-110 and the 240 jacketed.

[44man]

Whooooye, I get tired of trying to explain it. H110 and 296 are the exact same powders made on the same line by the same company, BUT, Hodgden gets a batch with a different burn rate then WW does. Never do batches come out exact so the bullet loaders get the out of sort stuff because they have equipment to measure the powder and adjust loads. Burn rates that fall within certain specs go to Hodgden or WW for their canister powders. They are enough different that one will work better in one gun then the other will.
If you just stay with H110 for all of your guns, you might be missing a big improvement in accuracy and vise-versa.
Felix said it in a round about way and he is correct.
Edward, there are just too many things that cause or cure leading. I don't think I would blame the forcing cone. Boolit alloy and boolit size are way more important as is the boolit design. Nose shape, number and size of grease grooves, front drive band and so many other things can effect this. Your boolits might be under throat size and are not staying straight, hitting the forcing cone off center. A large cylinder gap might be letting the boolit expand into it and it gets smashed down in the forcing cone. Driving the boolits as fast as you are means you need harder boolits to resist this. Using a soft boolit that exactly fits the throats or even over size will not cure it because at that pressure it turns to putty and wants to flow out the cylinder gap. Remember that the boolit nose tends to want to stop at the forcing cone but the rear keeps coming.
No matter what anyone says, I will never, ever shoot undersize boolits in any gun expecting them to expand to fill the bore and achieve accuracy. Even a Minie' ball in a .58 musket just makes noise unless it fits the bore perfect.

[Edward429451]

Whoa, thoose last three posts brang a whole lot into perspective for me. What you guys are saying makes perfect sense. I'm just not very used to H-110 and was tryin to err on the side of caution I guess.

Now I have the rest of the story on the two powders I feel better and more completely informed. Thanks to 44man for taking the time to explain about the powders...one more time for me. I appreciate that.

I doubt its the forcing cone myself because that Keith boolit does not lead at slower speeds. I'm driving it too fast for a PB boolit. Or its obturating enough to reach the rough spot on the forcing cone, which would still mean the same thing, too much pressure for that boolit.

H-110 does great with that swcgc lee boolit, and I suspect it will do fine with the 300 gr Keith boolit also since it has a gc.

I'll try some at 22.5 gr just to see and I'll let you all know how it turns out. Thanks for the input.

[JSH]

44man, have any thoughts on AA#9 and heavies in 44 mag?
Jeff

[MT Gianni]

I'm not 44 Man but have had good success with WC820 loaded to AA9 specs and 240-300 grain bullets. Gianni