Hunting with the S&W 500

[MJohnston]

I bought the 500 just cause I liked it. I would like to use it for hunting, and would like to know from some of the more experienced hunters if my favorite load is good enough or if I need more to ensure a hold on both sides. I have been loading the lee C501-440-RF with 10 and 11 grains of trail boss and it has been an easy shooting load. Could shoot all day with that load. I've considered getting the improved minnie or the real mold and trying those if one of those would be better on deer.

Thanks
Mark

[Nobade]

Well, you are shooting between 700 and 750 fps. If you put that boolit into a deer's vitals it is going to die very quickly. Of course you've got a loopy trajectory due to the low speed, but even going that slow that boolit is hard to stop. Just get close and put 'em in the right place.

-Nobade

[flintshooter]

I'm using that Trail Boss load as well and it's great out to 75 yds on steel plates. That is farther than I would shoot at a deer so I' ll be comfortable with that for now.

[44man]

Assuming a hard boolit, the S&W can shoot too fast and also too slow. 700 to 750 will be too slow. You need some expansion there, not much but some. The best range for deer will be 1200 to just close to 1300 fps. Go too fast and you again need some expansion. My hard boolits at 440 gr shot at 1350 fps from my JRH are not working well on deer and I need a tad of expansion. They poke a hole with no blood trail.
With the S&W, I would feel better at 1100 fps plus a little more. I have not worked it out yet on actual animals. The .44, .45 and .475 work so well I thought the larger .500 would do the same at the same velocity. It has not proven true, seems the heavier boolit just goes through too fast.
Your tests will be with alloys and actual hunting.
Your thoughts are good because all the velocity the S&W can achieve can be too much for smaller animals.
I am still pulling too much hair trying to find what is best.

[flintshooter]

I think that is close to max for TB so I might have to try a different powder. Had some good groups with Alliant 2400 with jacketed bullets. Might see what I can find for cast with that.

[flintshooter]

The 440gr wfn I am loading has 2 crimp grooves. If I seat it to the first groove instead of the second (increasing overall length) I suppose I could bump up the Trail Boss load and get a bit more velocity. I'm not averse to changing powders but, I have 5 lbs of this and would like to use it up and if I can get the extra velocity so much the better.

[MJohnston]

I think I'll have to try that as well. I also have 5 pounds of it. I switched to unique (have 8 pounds of it) to start gradually working up the velocity and it is even more smokey than trail boss. I'll get the chrony out this weekend and see if I can get over 1100 and then get out the milk jugs and phone books.

[flintshooter]

Cool, let me know what the crony tells ya. Looking at the cylinder on the gun and the loaded rounds, there should be plenty of room to seat to the first crimp groove.

[44man]

Something I have never come to terms with, never did enough work on it.
Seat deep and use less powder, seat long for more powder---if pressures are the same should not velocity be the same????? I have no idea!
I always changed powder.

[MJohnston]

Looking at quickloads trailboss wont get me enough velocity. 15 grains of unique should get me to the mid 1100 range. Looks like unique for hunting rounds and trailboss for plinking rounds. Speaking of alloy hardness, I have also been trying powder coating to use softer alloys at higher velocity so it will be interesting when I do the water jug test this weekend. So far no leading using range scrap and a little tin.

[ole 5 hole group]

I would think you're OK with that load - you're punching a half-inch hole in that deer and if you go behind the shoulders you have him dead to rights, but you probably will have to track him some. A nice shot is a quartering shot through the lungs/heart and bust the off-shoulder - he's not going far if at all.

I don't use trail boss but I think you'll find 15.0 to 15.5 grains of HS-6 with the 440 grain to be a nice soft load with plenty of punch for whitetail - velocity from a 5" bbl is 928fps with 15.0 grains. If you want a little more 28.0 to 28.5 grains of IMR4227 with a 440 grain will give great accuracy and 1,100fps velocity.

[44man]

I would think you're OK with that load - you're punching a half-inch hole in that deer and if you go behind the shoulders you have him dead to rights, but you probably will have to track him some. A nice shot is a quartering shot through the lungs/heart and bust the off-shoulder - he's not going far if at all.

I don't use trail boss but I think you'll find 15.0 to 15.5 grains of HS-6 with the 440 grain to be a nice soft load with plenty of punch for whitetail - velocity from a 5" bbl is 928fps with 15.0 grains. If you want a little more 28.0 to 28.5 grains of IMR4227 with a 440 grain will give great accuracy and 1,100fps velocity.
I have to go against this a little. A 1/2" hole means nothing at all. I shot too many deer with my JRH with zero blood trails. YOU CAN'T TRACK THEM. I was lucky and seen the deer run to me over 100 yards and drop. But I am going to tell you about another that I should not. I shot and the deer ran off. I could find NOTHING at all after searching for an hour or more. I chalked it off to a miss. I sat back down and shot another deer just before dark and when I was gutting I played the light into the woods and seen white. It was the first deer, now I had two deer. Neither deer left a blood trail from a 1/2" hole. Hole size is 100% false, it is what the boolit does inside the deer before exit. If you think a .45 kills better then a .44 because the boolit is larger, you are wrong. If you think a .500 kills better then a .475, you are again wrong. It is 100% based on the bullet/boolit used for the weight and velocity. That is where you must break bones and hit the CNS when the boolit is wrong.

[MJohnston]

Dont have any hs-6 or imr 4227 but might pick some up if things ever get back to normal. Powder shelves have been bare at every store within 60 miles of me for a couple months. At least I have a good supply of trail boss and unique until then.

[flintshooter]

I always try to break a shoulder when shooting a deer or bear. Up to now I have always used a rifle, 348 Win., and almost without fail they dropped on the spot and never had to follow a blood trail. The bear managed to run a few yds but, not very far at all. I guess that is kind of what I hope to do with the 500 and the 440 gr boolit. All my shots would be 50 yds or less so I'm confident this would be reasonably possible all the while knowing that it won't always be the case.

[idahoron]

I have been using that bullet for big game for a few years. I am paper patching it in my Muzzleloader. I am pushing it 1310 FPS. I have shot trophy mule deer, antelope and elk with that bullet. The hardness is about 7 BHN. and I can tell you they blow right through all game. They leave big holes and dead animals. I bet I have seen close to a dozen animals killed with that bullet and no one has found a bullet in an animal. That bullet is the hardest hitting bullet I have ever hunted with in a ML. Ron

[44man]

I have been using that bullet for big game for a few years. I am paper patching it in my Muzzleloader. I am pushing it 1310 FPS. I have shot trophy mule deer, antelope and elk with that bullet. The hardness is about 7 BHN. and I can tell you they blow right through all game. They leave big holes and dead animals. I bet I have seen close to a dozen animals killed with that bullet and no one has found a bullet in an animal. That bullet is the hardest hitting bullet I have ever hunted with in a ML. Ron
Different, can't be compared at all with a hard boolit from a .500 that is needed for accuracy. A pure lead round ball from a ML will do more damage then a .500 hard boolit. I have never recovered a RB from a deer from .45 to .54 caliber.
I can NOT shoot 7 BHN from my JRH and hit to over 100 yards.
Boolit action inside an animal is still the big mystery and there is a point where bigger is not better just because of boolit diameter.
Now 7 BHN from the JRH would leave a red mist where the deer was. Problem is I can't shoot it with leading, slump and skid troubles from a revolver.

[JimP.]

I use a NEF Handi rifle chambered in 500 Smith mag. My load consists of a 475 gr cast bullet of my own design. With 30 grs of AA5744 and a lubed felt wad and hard fiber card between bullet and powder, it gives an average velocity of 1256 fps. The lubed wad and fiber card keep the soft bullet from leading the barrel. I have a Bushnell red dot scope with 4 different reticles, I personally prefer the crosshair reticle. This is an honest 125 yard gun and as such i use it in wooded areas where the shots arent long. The bullet will expand on a deer and drops them on the spot using the shoulder or spine shot. This caliber works with the right bullet, took a while to find the right combination. Have fun, be safe.

[44man]

I use a NEF Handi rifle chambered in 500 Smith mag. My load consists of a 475 gr cast bullet of my own design. With 30 grs of AA5744 and a lubed felt wad and hard fiber card between bullet and powder, it gives an average velocity of 1256 fps. The lubed wad and fiber card keep the soft bullet from leading the barrel. I have a Bushnell red dot scope with 4 different reticles, I personally prefer the crosshair reticle. This is an honest 125 yard gun and as such i use it in wooded areas where the shots arent long. The bullet will expand on a deer and drops them on the spot using the shoulder or spine shot. This caliber works with the right bullet, took a while to find the right combination. Have fun, be safe.
You do know what is needed and I will tell you a behind the shoulder shot will do great. The problem is those that want 1800 fps + and do not consider the choice of boolit/bullet.

[idahoron]

Different, can't be compared at all with a hard boolit from a .500 that is needed for accuracy. A pure lead round ball from a ML will do more damage then a .500 hard boolit. I have never recovered a RB from a deer from .45 to .54 caliber.
I can NOT shoot 7 BHN from my JRH and hit to over 100 yards.
Boolit action inside an animal is still the big mystery and there is a point where bigger is not better just because of boolit diameter.
Now 7 BHN from the JRH would leave a red mist where the deer was. Problem is I can't shoot it with leading, slump and skid troubles from a revolver.

I would agree that 7BHN is maybe a bit too soft without a Paper Patch I have never shot it in a pistol. But what I have seen with these bullets speaks volumes on their effectiveness on game. Not just deer but also elk and antelope.
As far as slump goes if your shooting the 7 BHN bullet in a pistol at 1300 FPS how is the 7 BHN pistol bullet going to slump but the ML shooting the same bullet does not?
Also, the Lee 500 S&W is no mystery. You hit them and the bullet smokes right on through. All there is left is the gutting.
Ron

[44man]

I would agree that 7BHN is maybe a bit too soft without a Paper Patch I have never shot it in a pistol. But what I have seen with these bullets speaks volumes on their effectiveness on game. Not just deer but also elk and antelope.
As far as slump goes if your shooting the 7 BHN bullet in a pistol at 1300 FPS how is the 7 BHN pistol bullet going to slump but the ML shooting the same bullet does not?
Also, the Lee 500 S&W is no mystery. You hit them and the bullet smokes right on through. All there is left is the gutting.
Ron
Simple, slump does not happen with a RB in a muzzle loader and most boolits do not slump. They fit tight and have no throats to go through, no forcing cone and do not have to take rifling after running to it like crazy.
I would use nothing but pure lead if I could make it shoot from revolvers. NOTHING is better for hunting. Now the cap and ball revolver will kill like a .44 mag and it is because of BP not smokeless.
It is apples to oranges.

[idahoron]

You are not reading my post. I am using a Lee C-501-440-RF bullet in my muzzleloader. Ron

[ole 5 hole group]

I have to go against this a little. A 1/2" hole means nothing at all. I shot too many deer with my JRH with zero blood trails. YOU CAN'T TRACK THEM.

Well, I guess you can think what you want but bigger is better all else being equal - that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Now as far as your JRH leaving no blood trail - can't explain that except maybe your eyesight is failing you in your senior years or the deer was poorly hit or else the hairs on those deer were more like tissue paper and soaked up all the blood.:Fire: Somewhere in there is probably your answer.

All I can say is keep shooting that JRH, as your luck with blood trails is bound to improve and if it doesn't - then step up to the 50 Alaskan, as that should get her done.

[44man]

You are not reading my post. I am using a Lee C-501-440-RF bullet in my muzzleloader. Ron
I did and find nothing wrong.

[44man]

Well, I guess you can think what you want but bigger is better all else being equal - that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Now as far as your JRH leaving no blood trail - can't explain that except maybe your eyesight is failing you in your senior years or the deer was poorly hit or else the hairs on those deer were more like tissue paper and soaked up all the blood.:Fire: Somewhere in there is probably your answer.

All I can say is keep shooting that JRH, as your luck with blood trails is bound to improve and if it doesn't - then step up to the 50 Alaskan, as that should get her done.
One was shot at 20 yards behind the shoulder. The other was hit at 120 yards in front of the left shoulder with exit behind the right shoulder.
The truth is, the .50 Alaskan would be worse.
The JRH will get a softer nose for next season so we need to wait to see what happens.
It sure drives me nuts. Just what can do better then a .500?
As much as I see, I can still be wrong.

[2shot]

One was shot at 20 yards behind the shoulder. The other was hit at 120 yards in front of the left shoulder with exit behind the right shoulder.
The truth is, the .50 Alaskan would be worse.
The JRH will get a softer nose for next season so we need to wait to see what happens.
It sure drives me nuts. Just what can do better then a .500?
As much as I see, I can still be wrong.


I have to agree with 44man on this one.

Although not in the same catagory as the 500 I have used my 41 mag with Federal Harecore bullets with dismal results. I shot 5 different deer with that load at ranges form 10 feet to 100 yards out of my model 657. Never once did I get a blood trail to follow, never. I believe that Castcore is too hard and the only deer that dropped was from a spine hit. Out of those 5 deer I only recovered 3 and besides the spine hit the others were long hard tracking jobs. The other 2 went over a mile and I lost them with tracks from other deer in the trail. Shot a few coyote's with these Castcore too and had several of them still alive after 30 minutes with good chest hits. Not the kind of performance I want on living animals.

I will never use these Castcore again for anything. They are wonderful in the accuracy department but truely suck on deer size game.

[44man]

Yes, I found caliber is just not that important. It is always the bullet/boolit. To see a .500 do LESS then a .44 is an eye opener for me. It seems the big heavy boolit just pokes a hole.
I shoot a LOT of deer and each is still a learning experience that can't be read in a magazine or the net.
Now the good thing about where I live. Had 14 deer in the yard the other day. They still eat the bird seed next to the house. I love them even though the wife curses over her bird feeders.
I just have to wait for hunting season. I actually quit hunting my property, silly but it is like the tree rats that come to feed. I can't shoot them. Some raise rabbits for food, sorry, I can't kill one. I will kill wild rabbits. We have doves at our feeders, they will never be shot at.
Things and feelings change as you get older my friends so it is far more important to do right when you take a life.

[ole 5 hole group]

I can say this from experience - very few deer drop at the shot unless struck with a CNS hit or busted their shoulders. I've helped a friend or two track deer struck by 270's, 308's and 30-06's which were well hit and still covered from a half mile to a mile from where struck. Sometimes the blood trail was very scarce but with 2 to 4 guys tracking we usually came upon a blood spot here and there to get a sense of direction he was heading - snow cover made it a whole lot easier but we are talking blood spots, not a stream of blood. We normally recovered the deer after an hour or so - a couple of times we found them through shear luck, as we gave up looking and walked right up to them going back.

A lot of times you think you know the direction but the actual sign is 15 feet away and you're meandering doesn't come across the blood spot.

Myself, I've lost deer when hunting solo and I lost the blood trail - never could figure out how they ran so far when I firmly believed I put the shot right through the lungs. Of course they could have been dead and off my course by 20 feet and I walked right on by - I'll never know.

Bigger is better - 30 caliber guys try and make their bullet expand to .5" - 45/70 boys try for a 5" expansion or better - when you start with .5" you're already there - just use the right bullet. If you don't mind losing a little meat bust a shoulder and I doubt you'll lose that deer.

I suppose Jim will cast a slug that will expand to .7" with that JRH and will turn the lungs into jelly - but that little 130# deer will still take off at mach speed but hopefully will pile up within sight. Maybe you need to increase the height of your stand Jim, so you can see more and see further.:mrgreen:

[44man]

I do most revolver hunting from the ground now. Call it old age comfort! I made a seat from plywood with a hinged back to go against a tree or boulder. The front is jacked up higher because of ground slope. It works like a charm. Need a thick cushion too.
I still like a tree stand but no higher then 15' and 12' works.
I shoot a lot of deer just walking too because I fool them and they come to me.
We think a lot alike, a blood trail is needed, there is NOTHING more important. Mostly here where there are a thousand deer tracks in every trail and in between too.

[MJohnston]

I got to do more testing yesterday as well. Just wish I had better results to show for it. I tried to fire into milk jugs to test expansion and see how to powder coating held up. The boolit went through 7 jugs and went out the side to be never found again. The pic shows what I found in the dirt just under the grass. After seeing the fracturing instead of deforming I tested again and they were about 14-15 hardness instead of 10 like I thought they were. Looks like I need to work on my alloy. I am going to round up some 5 gallon buckets next weekend and see if I can recover a good boolit. I chronorgaphed the rounds too just to make sure they were going about what I thought they should and with 12 grains of trail boss they chrono'd 886fps out of my 10.5 hunter model and the 15 grains of unique chrono'd at 1059. Not quite as fast as I thought but aparently from the milk jug test plenty enough. Going to work on the alloy and do more testing next weekend. 63576

[44man]

I got to do more testing yesterday as well. Just wish I had better results to show for it. I tried to fire into milk jugs to test expansion and see how to powder coating held up. The boolit went through 7 jugs and went out the side to be never found again. The pic shows what I found in the dirt just under the grass. After seeing the fracturing instead of deforming I tested again and they were about 14-15 hardness instead of 10 like I thought they were. Looks like I need to work on my alloy. I am going to round up some 5 gallon buckets next weekend and see if I can recover a good boolit. I chronorgaphed the rounds too just to make sure they were going about what I thought they should and with 12 grains of trail boss they chrono'd 886fps out of my 10.5 hunter model and the 15 grains of unique chrono'd at 1059. Not quite as fast as I thought but aparently from the milk jug test plenty enough. Going to work on the alloy and do more testing next weekend. 63576
Good thinking. You should not have fractures.
My .475 has been the best with a hard WFN boolit. Straight through 17 water jugs, blew 4 up, split 2 more. Plain old water dropped WW boolits at 20 to 22 BHN. Amazing internal destruction on deer. The .44 does just great but the .500 is an enigma with the same boolit alloy.

[x101airborne]

Since you are shooting that slow, shoot me a PM with your address and this coming week I will cast you some of the NOE HP's I have been using in my 50 Beowulf. You gotta try these things out.

[44man]

Since you are shooting that slow, shoot me a PM with your address and this coming week I will cast you some of the NOE HP's I have been using in my 50 Beowulf. You gotta try these things out.
I would love to but don't get carried away. Just enough for a sight setting and a couple of deer. PM on the way.