resizing cast slugs???

[mossbergman]

I've been thinking... perhaps a bit too much, lol :)... since i cast the lee 1 oz. slug, placing it inside my wad makes the combination (wad with slug) ever so slightly too wide of a diameter to push through the front part of my shotgun.

So i was thinking perhaps the way to go is resizing the slug rather than finding a wad with thinner pedals... Has anyone tried resizing slugs? if so is there a resizing die that you can resize the slug with? I'm thinking something that acts as a ram with a leaver that you force the slug through the die which cuts or reshapes the slug. this way the slug will work with the wads that i already have. thanks

[pipehand]

Have given the same thing some thought myself. Don't know if Old West Bullet Molds is in business anymore, but they did have a sizer that was for use with the larger Minie balls. It doesn't have to be that complicated as it doesn't have to put lube in grooves.

[longbow]

Not quite sure I am understanding so bear with me.

When you say "ever so slightly too wide of a diameter to push through the front part of my shotgun" does the gun have a choke?

If so then resizing will not likely have much effect as the slug will "slug up" at firing anyway... at least if made from soft lead. Most hollow base slugs become shorter and fatter at firing because they obturate to fill the bore. After that they have to squeeze back down to get through a choke.

So, if you have cylinder bore then sizing may help as the slug/wad combo will get through the forcing cone as it is swelling to fill the barrel but if you have a choked bore then there is little point in sizing the slug down if it already fits the barrel ahead of the choke.

It won't hurt to try especially if you can make your own sizer. It may be worth a try but don't expect miracles.

Longbow

[cpileri]

I just found a smoothbore open choke barrel (disassembled from the action) of same diameter as my desired slug, squirted some oil down the bore, and pounded it through with a wooden dowel; careful to keep it straight in the forcing cone.

Expedient but not fast.

At least I know its a 'slip fit' through my bore now!
C-

[GBertolet]

I made a series of push through sizer dies for my shotgun slugs. I made them to fit a spare Herters press I had laying around. I had to make the dies with a 1-1/4X18 outside thread, to fit in the press. I made .730 and .723 die for the Forster slugs, and .679 and .673 dies for the Lee !oz slugs. I made a ram that fits in the shell holder slot to push the slugs through. I just roll the slugs on my case lube pad for lubrication. I found you can increase diameter for in between sizes, by rolling a rasp over them, which knurls them. Amount of down pressure and number of passes determines the diameter.

[Carryacolt]

Do you have pictures? It would help us to see the end result. What would you estimate the cost would be to have it made from a custom shop?

[mossbergman]

Not quite sure I am understanding so bear with me.

When you say "ever so slightly too wide of a diameter to push through the front part of my shotgun" does the gun have a choke?

If so then resizing will not likely have much effect as the slug will "slug up" at firing anyway... at least if made from soft lead. Most hollow base slugs become shorter and fatter at firing because they obturate to fill the bore. After that they have to squeeze back down to get through a choke.

So, if you have cylinder bore then sizing may help as the slug/wad combo will get through the forcing cone as it is swelling to fill the barrel but if you have a choked bore then there is little point in sizing the slug down if it already fits the barrel ahead of the choke.

It won't hurt to try especially if you can make your own sizer. It may be worth a try but don't expect miracles.

Longbow

Thank you so much for your reply Longbow... I'm very much a begginer so i don't have a good understanding of what happens to a boolit after its shot inside the bore. I definatly have a cylinder barrel NO CHOKE. I'm positive about that. However, from what i understand you are supposed to push the boolit backwards through the front of the barrel with a 6-10 lb. force. when i do this the slug with the pedals of the wad is wider than my barrel... cutting the pedals down to 1/4" from 3/4" works. But i'm not sure if thats enough support for the bullit during flight???

hey, you mentioned making your own resizing die... any info. on how? I'm thinking tha would be an alternative to cutting pedals.

[longbow]

If you want to try sizing down, you can make a simple hammer through sizing die by boring a piece of steel bar at the size you want. I would bore the "in" end to fit the current slug and depth a little longer than the slug. Machine a bevel between the "in" end diameter and sizing diameter, then make a punch that is slip fit through the sizing portion.

Drop the slug in nose first then drive it through with the punch and a mallet. You may have to lube the slug first depending on how much you are sizing down.

Simple but effective and easy to make.

Longbow

[mossbergman]

I made a series of push through sizer dies for my shotgun slugs. I made them to fit a spare Herters press I had laying around. I had to make the dies with a 1-1/4X18 outside thread, to fit in the press. I made .730 and .723 die for the Forster slugs, and .679 and .673 dies for the Lee !oz slugs. I made a ram that fits in the shell holder slot to push the slugs through. I just roll the slugs on my case lube pad for lubrication. I found you can increase diameter for in between sizes, by rolling a rasp over them, which knurls them. Amount of down pressure and number of passes determines the diameter.

I would love to see some pictures of that die and ram you built... it would sure give me an idea what i would need to accomplish. thanks

[mossbergman]

If you want to try sizing down, you can make a simple hammer through sizing die by boring a piece of steel bar at the size you want. I would bore the "in" end to fit the current slug and depth a little longer than the slug. Machine a bevel between the "in" end diameter and sizing diameter, then make a punch that is slip fit through the sizing portion.

Drop the slug in nose first then drive it through with the punch and a mallet. You may have to lube the slug first depending on how much you are sizing down.

Simple but effective and easy to make.

Longbow

will a drill press with the right size bit do this? it would be a straight drilled diameter throughout so no bevel... but i could drill the exact diameter of the slug half way and then resized diameter hole the rest of the way... I'm going to try milling that first and see if it works... I wish I had a lathe then i would make a beveled hole.

[longbow]

I doubt you will get what you want with a drill press but if you can find the right size drill bits/reamers (maybe number/letter drill bits and reamers) you might get away with it. Don't forget that drill bits cut oversize by a few thou so best to drill small then ream or drill again slightly larger to get close then you can cast a lead slug inside and use it to lap to smooth finish and final diameter. If you buy a reamer for the sizing diameter you need to drill about 0.003"/0.005" undersize to leave enough to ream to final size. The reamed finish will not need lapping unless you need it a few thou larger.

It would be much easier to bore on a lathe.

Longbow

[mossbergman]

I doubt you will get what you want with a drill press but if you can find the right size drill bits/reamers (maybe number/letter drill bits and reamers) you might get away with it. Don't forget that drill bits cut oversize by a few thou so best to drill small then ream or drill again slightly larger to get close then you can cast a lead slug inside and use it to lap to smooth finish and final diameter. If you buy a reamer for the sizing diameter you need to drill about 0.003"/0.005" undersize to leave enough to ream to final size. The reamed finish will not need lapping unless you need it a few thou larger.

It would be much easier to bore on a lathe.

Longbow

You are probably right... i'm going to check into having this made for me. a lathe would be a much better tool to get the job done just right. TY

[GBertolet]

629736297462975Here are some photos of what I have made up for sizing slugs. The first photo is of my Herters press, the second is some of my slugs, first is a Rapine 550 gr, second is a knurled lengthened Lee 1oz, third is a lengthened Lee 1oz, and fourth is a modified Lyman foster with a driving band added, snugging up the loose fitting slug. And last picture are of my dies, which I made up over a period of time from scrap stock.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello MossBergman, once you get close enough with a drill bit, you can buy an adjustable reamer like the ones I use in the picture below:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/DSC02711.jpg
Hoping it helps.

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[longbow]

GBertolet:

Nice work! Those dies look really good.

How do you find the Lyman slug for accuracy with the driving band added? I have been thinking of doing something similar.

Are you casting your slugs from soft lead or harder alloy?

Longbow

[GBertolet]

Longbow, I have had accuracy problems with the Lyman foster cast out of soft lead. The base collapses, and folds inward due to the setback in firing, causing poor grouping. I have recovered several slugs showing this. I tried filling the base with hot glue, which prevents the collapse, and improves accuracy somewhat. Next I am going to try casting them out of #2 alloy or even linotype and see what the result is. When I try that, I will have to match the slug diameter to the bore size pretty close, to keep the pressures down. Despite all by best efforts, trying numerous shotguns, rifled and smoothbore, with all these slugs, I cannot seem to out perform the old .735 round ball in a rifled barrel.

[longbow]

I am shooting smoothbores so need a round ball or drag stabilized slug. So far to 50 yards I have had few slugs (except factory Foster rounds) shoot as accurately or consistently as a good round ball load.

I have had some successes with home made moulds for Foster slugs but with thick skirts and heat treat for exactly the reasons you mention ~ the skirts collapse and distort.

So far the best accuracy I have gotten is exactly what you found ~ 0.735" round ball in a borrowed rifled gun. I do like round balls!

I have also had some pretty good results in the smoothbores with home made Brenneke like slugs but getting the attached wad consistent is difficult. I am still working on various materials and methods.

I guess this is turning into a thread hijack so I better shut up now.

Sorry!

Longbow

[mossbergman]

oh my gosh you guys are the best... special thanks to longbow, GBertolet and Ajay for all of the info and photo support. Much appriciated. I'm off to the man cave to get this resizing tool fabricated. :)

[mossbergman]

oh and longbow... feel free to hijack my thread. Its no problem because what you call hijack i call education :)

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello MossBergman, you will need a strong press like RCBS Rock Chukker with 1-1/4X18" thread, based on the slug you wish to re size, you'll need the pins to match each slug
hollow base etc to keep the slug in tact and not crush during the process!

Hoping it helps.

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[GBertolet]

As VdoMemorie suggests, if you are using multiple size sizer dies, that are significantly different in diameter, you will have to make up appropriate push through rams. Getting maximum contact with the edges of the slug bases avoids slug damage in sizing. I got away with only two. One for the .723 and .730 dies for the foster type slugs, and another smaller ram for the .673 and .679 dies used for the Lee Key Drives.

[mossbergman]

Hello MossBergman, you will need a strong press like RCBS Rock Chukker with 1-1/4X18" thread, based on the slug you wish to re size, you'll need the pins to match each slug
hollow base etc to keep the slug in tact and not crush during the process!

Hoping it helps.

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

I'll look and see about that press... Hopefully it makes sence for me. Thanks for the suggestion.

[mossbergman]

As VdoMemorie suggests, if you are using multiple size sizer dies, that are significantly different in diameter, you will have to make up appropriate push through rams. Getting maximum contact with the edges of the slug bases avoids slug damage in sizing. I got away with only two. One for the .723 and .730 dies for the foster type slugs, and another smaller ram for the .673 and .679 dies used for the Lee Key Drives.

OK... please excuse the follow up question as I can be slow in getting it sometimes :)... do you mean you are pushing the lee slug through twice and each time sizing just a little bit otherwise the bottom of slug could deform?

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning MossBergman, if you are only doing it to fit Lee Drive key in a pertecular wad for a snug fit then perhaps just one sizing die will do!
You will not only require a strong press but also have the press mounted on a solid table and then all your weight to push it through based on your alloy!

This hobby is suppose to be fun, you might be better off buying better choices of wads, instead and the good wads are a bit hard to find specially when you need them!
1. Win.AA12F114 with the thinnest petals, but hard to find.
2. Fed.12S-3
3. Win. AA-12
4. Fed.12C-1, hard to find.
5. Fed.12S-4
6. Fed.12S-0, petals thick.
7. Trap Commander, thicker petals.
8. Hornady Versalite, very thick but good for overbored barrel.
and this is how they fit before modifications, like adding a nitro card and cutting the wad petals short etc:

https://imgur.com/2nkY5pd
https://imgur.com/CtlOdHK
Please do not buy the replacement wads as they are usually very crappy, I would not touch them with a 10 feet pole!

Hoping it helps.

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[GBertolet]

No, what I ment was the ram has to be very close to the die diameter, or you will not get maximum support on the edges of the slug when forcing through the die. The bases of the slugs are hollow, with only about 1/8" around the rim in contact with the surface of the ram. With too small of a ram, the edges of the slug will shear off when being forced through the die. I found that I could get away with one size ram for the .673 and .679 dies. but I need a larger size for the .723 and .730 dies, to keep this from happening. If you are doing just the Lee, you will only need the one ram to size the slug.

[mossbergman]

No, what I ment was the ram has to be very close to the die diameter, or you will not get maximum support on the edges of the slug when forcing through the die. The bases of the slugs are hollow, with only about 1/8" around the rim in contact with the surface of the ram. With too small of a ram, the edges of the slug will shear off when being forced through the die. I found that I could get away with one size ram for the .673 and .679 dies. but I need a larger size for the .723 and .730 dies, to keep this from happening. If you are doing just the Lee, you will only need the one ram to size the slug.

Hey thank you for setting me straight on that... :) I was wondering if you would be willing to make me a ram (metal rod) and resizing die for a lee slug sized down to .680? if you are willing to do this please pm me with a price. Thanks

[mossbergman]

Ajay, I'm starting to look forward to your posts :) awsome information and pics... jam packed with good info. Thanks

I realize as an alternative to resizing the slug I could just replace the wad with thinner pedals

Question:
1. Which peddal do you think would work with the lee slug snugly in a standard federal shotshell?
2. Do you know os any place that would send you sample sizes of wads... I would need a handful of differant pedal thickness to see which one works best then would place a bulk order. I would even be willing to pay for the samples. Otherwise i would be ordering wads and having to return them. which seems silly to me.

Thanks again!

[fenman]

Hi GBertolot I found the picture's of your Dies may I ask do they taper down to your required size or have shoulder ?

cheer's Fenman

[Taylor]

Would you consider making a couple for sale?

[vzerone]

mossbergman, I've been shooting Fost type slugs that I swage through my Browning BPS with a rifled barrel and scope. I use lead pipe and such for my alloy and it does have some antimony in it. It's little harder then straigh lead, but still swages. I had that problem of the wad trying to enter the hollow base and fixed it with filling it with paraffin. I can tell you this, just changing the the type and thickness of the wad underneath the slug can take your 1-2 inch groups at 100 yards to over a foot!!!! Just found that out somemore out testing today. I changed the .125 nitro card to the same thickness in a hard vinyl plastic, not brittle, and my group was 12 inches. So that's out and back to the .125 nitro card. Slug loading is very tempermental. I hope you can get a die make for you or cobble up one yourself.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Mossbergman, here is the chart of wad fit in .730 ID barrel bottom right.
https://imgur.com/CtlOdHK
Lets say the wad you have is a bit loose then simply paper parch them like this in wad
https://imgur.com/yjZi7z9
then try pushing it through your tightest choke backwards without the nitro card in wad to check for fiction fit.
https://imgur.com/2nkY5pd

Your worst enemy will be blow-by gases like this.
https://imgur.com/Ma1bqZp
Because of this:
https://imgur.com/sCW0uoc
Very Simple remedy here is :
https://imgur.com/8SVSz3X
I wish you the very best above all have fun burning powder at the range ! !

Best regards,
Ajay Madan

[jkcerda]

Greetings Mossbergman, here is the chart of wad fit in .730 ID barrel bottom right.
https://imgur.com/CtlOdHK
Lets say the wad you have is a bit loose then simply paper parch them like this in wad
https://imgur.com/yjZi7z9
then try pushing it through your tightest choke backwards without the nitro card in wad to check for fiction fit.
https://imgur.com/2nkY5pd

Your worst enemy will be blow-by gases like this.
https://imgur.com/Ma1bqZp
Because of this:
https://imgur.com/sCW0uoc
Very Simple remedy here is :
https://imgur.com/8SVSz3X
I wish you the very best above all have fun burning powder at the range ! !

Best regards,
Ajay Madan

TAG. thanks

[Moiecol]

What model type/no. for the Herter press did you use ? The simplest is the smartest way to follow !

I made a series of push through sizer dies for my shotgun slugs. I made them to fit a spare Herters press I had laying around. I had to make the dies with a 1-1/4X18 outside thread, to fit in the press. I made .730 and .723 die for the Forster slugs, and .679 and .673 dies for the Lee !oz slugs. I made a ram that fits in the shell holder slot to push the slugs through. I just roll the slugs on my case lube pad for lubrication. I found you can increase diameter for in between sizes, by rolling a rasp over them, which knurls them. Amount of down pressure and number of passes determines the diameter.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Might be easier to just buy different wads? I use the Claybuster Blue Wads for Lee and Lyman Slugs and they work well in my Smoothbore Shotguns for my intended uses of shooting steel targets and plinking. 35-50 yards. My round ball loads are all assembled in my normal trap load instead of the shot. @1100-1150 fps

Nobody is going to get repeatable "rifle accuracy" from a smoothbore gun. Too many variables in the projectiles and how they get assembled and launched. But you can get "acceptable results" pretty easily by accepting distance limitations, (50-75 yards) and consistent load assembly. People don't generally consider that assembly of shotshells with single projectiles is very similar to assembling Brass Cartridges but all the same rules apply.

I currently have three shotguns I am shooting slugs from,,, My M500 HD gun which has a 18.5" smoothbore barrel with sights, my 20" M500 with a Vang Comped barrel with sights, and my Browning Auto 5 with both a 24" smoothbore barrel or 24" Hastings rifled barrel. Both with sights. It is by far the most accurate of the bunch. Just having the open sights on all these guns makes a huge difference in the accuracy.

Also there are many commercial slugs available that have attached wads, like Thug Slugs which perform well in both smoothbore and rifled barrels. Those slugs are swaged and are about as close to identical as swaged boolits. Thus the projectile variance is eliminated. Using new hulls eliminates another variable, weighed powder charges and a perfectly consistent crimp would complete the picture. Shotshells need to be as close to the same OAL as possible to eliminate another variable.

I have also found that limiting velocities to 1250-1300 fps for the Lyman Pellet Slug, Lee Drive Key Slugs, and my Round Balls gives pretty consistent results. With lower pressures comes less induced variances during launch, Including wad distortion, slug distortion, and slug alignment. These things all contribute to poor groups so limiting their influence can only help and when you look at the loss in power it is negligible for most uses. Steel or paper targets don't care, and No Deer or Bear is going to know the difference in being hit with a 1 oz+ slug that is going 1300 or 1500 fps. both are devastating. Now,,, if you're talking big bears,,, maybe so.

Randy