Just wait... everything old is new again.

[gunfan]

It seems as if we've come full circle. In the mid 1960's we left behind the .38 Special with it's 200-grain RNL lumbering along at 700 fps. Lee Jurras introduced the 110-grain JHP running out the barrel at 1100 fps promising that it would "damage more tissue" and "abbreviate the fight" due to "hydrostatic shock".

47 years later we have come to the realization that without the penetration of the heavier slugs and their ability to reach the vital organs, the fight will often go on far longer than it should, and the dead/dying bad person can (and often does) kill and damage more than they would have with the load of the late 1960's/early 1970's.

We seem to be "chasing our tails" in pursuit of the elusive formula for "stopping the the fight."

Scott

[220swiftfn]

Not chasing our tails. Remember, Jurras's Hi-Vel loads were at the forefront of expanding projectile technology, and that velocity was necessary to ensure reliable performance (as a later example of the same thing, the original Remington 185 HP failed miserably at standard velocity, but was a peach at +p). Well, technology has caught up. Now, there are HP designs that ARE reliable at standard velocities, so we get a choice (slow and heavy/ light and fast). The bottom line has always been shot placement, but an expanding round does help. As to the rate of expansion vs. penetration, this is dependent on the design of the hollowpoint as well (Hornady's XTP is a good example here) where a slower expanding HP can have a higher penetration in a lighter projectile.


Dan

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I still carry my caliber 38 specials and 357 mag revolvers with a 165 grain WC from an old Ideal mold ( I forget the number right now) . Cast from range lead and pushed with modest charges of Unique (4 grain and 5 grain respectivly).
That big flat soft nose will sooner or later expand and it has enough mass to penetrate through some very tough thick cactus base. Never met a big wild dog up close that could take one or two of those through the forward chest area that needed any more. Now if I had to do the task at farther than 40 feet then I would want that 357 stoked with a 6.5 grain charge. But then I do not see any big wild fang bearer causing me any undo harm that far away.
So I guess I am of that full circle route.. but I recon I never left it. I am not against fast and light.. I think heavy and modrate velocity fills my need and will never wear out the goods.
Mike in Peru

[monge]

I have tested moderate to high velocities load in 44s and 44mags and found that the moderate loads seem to expand more even and retain more weight during exspanding. I dont believe everything I read about these new high speed plastic tip filled bullets most I have tested fragment when they hit bone or eneny hard surface. my cast ww/lino boolits break bones and penitrate better and retain there weight .My two cents!

[Larry Gibson]

I shot myself once with the .38 SPL 200 gr "manstopper" load once.......

Back in the early '70s I was test soem Second Chance kevlar test pieces with various handgun loads for the LE agnecy I worked for. I taped them to a 12" thick bundle of large magazines (if any remember the size Life used to come in) and was shooting them at 5 feet. The test patches were stopping every thing from .22LRs to 44 Magnums out of various length handguns barrels. When I shot the test patch with the 200 gr "manstoppers" out of a S&W Chief's SPL the bullet bounced back and hit me in the stomack. I got a nice welt out of it and that was all. The bullet left only a smear on the test patch.

So I've not gone "full circle" back to slow moving 200 gr slugs for "penetration". I still use the WW or Fed 150/158 SWC lead HP or cast my own out of 1-40 alloy with a 358156 and HP them with the Forster 1/8" HP tool and push them to +P (975 - 1000 fps out of 4" M15) with Unique. They do offer expansion and penetration and about all you'll get out of the .38 SPL without resorting to sometning exotic (Glaser Safety type slugs) or exceeding the psi for the 38 SPL. Nope, I've no faith in slow 200 gr lead slugs..........especially RN ones in the .38 SPL.

Larry Gibson

[Case Stuffer]

I place more faith in the stopping power of a hard cast SWC in most common semi-auto handguns.

[44man]

I am in the tank of both penetration and energy applied at the proper place.
Just being a deer hunter I see all kinds of results and although much does not apply to BG shooting, the premise is still there. Shoot a BG and the energy must work sooner so it will use a different bullet.
I do not believe in ME figures at all because every bullet/boolit will do different at the animal or BG. But yes, we still need bullet energy and penetration.
LEO's have a harder time to prevent damage beyond the BG. The problem is so many bullets miss the primary target that it becomes a moot point.
The ideal is one shot, one hit and one kill, not 14 shots! That is the primary way to prevent collateral damage.
It amazes me to see a soldier stick an AR over a wall and empty his gun at nothing.

[Case Stuffer]

It amazes me to see a soldier stick an AR over a wall and empty his gun at nothing.

This sends a clear message. I know you are there somewhere and if you advance on my position you may get shot.
I VM we used to do two really dumb things IMO , recon by fire and a mad minute. Guess it was supose to show Charlie just how much firepower we had and show that we had plenty of ammo to waste.

[44man]

I am old school and one shot that kills will show the rest that you do not advance. A million .223 bullets that can't get through weeds, grass or trees is little fear.
A 30-06 or .308 will go though 2' trees and kill. Spray and pray is a useless thing. A rifleman picks one creep at a time and each bullet counts.
Fields of fire with machine guns is different, nothing will get through it. Perfect with a full out attack but yet a rifleman will do better at that point by killing one creep with one shot.
A good sniper will hold off hundreds but the rifleman must do the same. Accuracy is first and I can say if a creep showed his head at 500 yards, I would kill him.
Look at the count of rounds fired for each kill in Nam.
We have lost ability to numbers fired.

[Bwana]

Quite a few of those I served with said they were glad the M-60s were on the perimeter when the SHTF in the Nam. In some cases it was suppressive fire and in others it was an attempt to keep from getting overrun. And since these things generally happened at night most of the time it would be hard to hit one target when all you have are swinging flares for light. It's like anything else, it's better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and wish you had. Of course anything can be improperly employed.
As far as handgun rounds I like a middle weight (125-135gr 35cal, 155-165 40cal) JSP or JHP that will stay together after expanding and at a +P+ loading.

[gunfan]

I'm not disagreeing with anyone when it comes to shot placement. That, of course, is the imperative. Expansion is good, but without penetration, expansion can compromise the projectile's efficacity.

As it has been said by an experienced attorney that worked with an autopsy physician. "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen. everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

Scott

[monge]

Shooting at humans is one thing but wild game that sleeps outside and is always wary is another I have double lunged deer that ran another 50yards before dieing shot placement penitration and a big hole is key in my eyes!

[gunfan]

Penetration is quite important when it comes to killing humans. So much emphasis has been placed on "violent expansion" of hollow points, that reaching the vital organs seems to have been forgotten. this results in a lot of good men (and women) being killed.

Scott

[Case Stuffer]

Adrenal plays a rather large part in both four and two footed animals. Spooke any animal and it is much harder to shut down all at once.

Shot placement along with penatrattion can shuit down the brain,central nervious system long enough for the body to die.

Really large ,dangerious animal which are often take with firearms when they are really pissed off and charging are shot with what type slugs most often?

I prefer a 20" plus wound channel of around 3/8" dia. than a 4-10" long one 1/2" dia. perhaps. It has been proven over and over again that a hard square shoulder cuts,slices,dices and penetrates better / deeper , more consistanly than a round nose,soft nose hollow nose ..

Everyone knows that a 9MM is not a hand cannon , given a choice at the start of a gun fight I would rather have one of my 1911s in 45ACP ,first choice would be my comp. /IPSC one , ) or my S & W 44 mag. with 6" bbl. but I had really rather have one of my bolt action,scoped rifles and good cover . I carry a 9 because it is fairly light,small,easy to CC, ammo should be available during a total govement colaspe / civil war /armagedon. My 9 MM 135 g. hard cast 135 gr. SWC over 4.8 gr. of WW231 penetrate over 9" of living pine tree trunk routinely. Some like TC flat points which are good for transfering energy same as HP,same as a GSS,same as a WC but SWC with nice square cornor on the front band out penetrates them all .

[Groo]

Groo here
Back when the jhc was just getting started [ supervel showing my age!] the point of the hp was NOT to do more damage.
The point was to reduce bounce back or off into the weeds when hitting a hard target [ brick , block etc] and to reduce the pass through to hit a taxpayer....
The hp slowed down faster.
An hp May do more damage depending how big it gets [expansion] and /or how deep it goes [hard cast or ball being more predictable]
And we had SWC,SWChp and flat or round bullets and the mighty 357.
I don't think that a hp or expanding bullet [for the most part] has any effect on the Stopping ablity of a round as the pain is what gets
your attention an that is felt mostly at the skin level, but it does at the killing part as it will do more damage where the blood is [heart ,lung guts etc]
and that drops the pressure..
For in town where people that you Don't want to hit are, the hp is best as it reduces the chance of pass through,but may not kill or stop fast.
The solid or low expanding for country where there is little else to hit and if the target does not drop you can take the time to follow.