Lousy accuracy in .308

[gotin]

I got one of the Savage Walmart specials - Savage 10 in .308 combo with a scope.
I hate heavy recoil so this gun was going to be dedicated to reduced-recoil cast bullets.
At first I tried with a 180 grain Lee bullet with different loads of Unique - starting at 8 gr up to 12 grains.
The bullets were cast from a foundry hardball, half were air dropped, half were water dropped. Then on half of each I put gas checks. And again half of each were lubed with Lee Alox and the other half with my soft lube (60% beeswax and 40% vaseline + a bit of lanolin).
The first 7-8 rounds grouped perfect, zeroed the new scope ( I replaced the cheapo with a Nikon). After that I could not keep them in a 5" target, no matter what I tried. It did not matter if they were soft, hard, with or without gas checks, or what lube they had or what the charge was.
There was almost no leading in the barrel.
Then I got the 120 gr Lee mold, again I had the same problem - the bullets hit all over the place.
I finally got some pulled 147 gr FMJ bullets and what a difference they made - nice tight group, it held after 50 rounds without problems.
The POI was the same with 8 gr (1200 f/s) and 12 gr (1550 f/s) of Unique.

I've shot many 92 gr cast bullets with my Mosin and it has been very accurate all the time, I have no idea what is going on with this Savage.

[tomme boy]

How many rounds of jacketed have been shot through this?

First thing I would do is clean the hell out of the barrel. First get the lead out, then start getting the copper out. I like the foaming bore cleaner for the copper. Spray it in and put it muzzle down. Leave it overnite. Patch out the next day. I like to do this at least 3-4 times.

Then I would start on a load. Stay with one load at a time. Only change ONE thing at a time.

Start the 180 gr Lee with a gas check at 10gr of Unique. Work up at .5 gr to 15. You will find a spot somewhere in there that will shoot better than the others. Use you lube you made. I would add about 10% ALOX to it. Size to 0.310" Seat them to just touch the lands.

Load a couple to just shoot into the berm before you start. This will get rid of the first round flyers and condition the bore with the lube you are using. Shoot from a bench, Keep the front support as close to the action as possible. You don't want any pressure on the front of the stock. Get a bag for the rear as well. A lot of people don't use a rear bag, and their groups will show it.

Go get some 2400 if you can find any. 15-19gr load for that one.

[gotin]

The rifle was brand new, it has now a total of 50 FMJ bullets trough it.
I cleaned the barrel after every 5 rounds - brush and a dry patch after that.
I was wondering if sizing makes the bullets too small and today I shot some unsized bullets (I only have the .309 sizer ) - they seemed to spread even more. Maybe I have to slug the barrel and see what it comes to?
I will try again with the cast bullets, the FMJ at 12 cents each are too expensive for general plinking. I loaded them just to see if it was the scope/rings causing this or it was the ammo.
I used a front bag, but I kept it forward, it seemed to cancel my small movements better, I'll try it closer to the action next time.

[MtGun44]

Brush and dry patch is not cleaning. You need to use a good liquid copper
cleaner and push a wet one thru, then wait about 1 minute and keep pushing
wet patches through until they show no blue. You are chemically cleaning
the copper off of the barrel surface.

I suggest you try .311 diameter and 16 grains of 2400.

Bill

[gotin]

I was trying to get a very low-recoil load, maybe the bigger diameter will make a difference.

[tomme boy]

0.309" is too small. Get a 0.310" or a 0.312" sizer.

[tomme boy]

Try to weigh the boolits before you load them. Try to keep them in .2gr batches. This will help also.

[MaineJim]

I have the same exact rifle as yours,mine came with a cheapo Bushnell but its got over 400 rounds and its still perfectly zeroed.
Anyway,after i bought it i shot a few groups with Varget and Sierra 168gr hpbt to see what i could expect accuracy wise,5 shots under an inch no problem.
I then cleaned bore down to bare metal and found 16 gr 2400 @ 1700 and I-4895 28.5 gr @ 1875 using the Lee AK mold ,155 grains shot great.
I shot quite a few rounds offhand practicing to season the bore before shooting off the bench.
I have since been using the RCBS 165 SIL mold,same powder charges and can get under one inch at a hundred when im having a good day.
In particular the 16 gr 2400 is realy mild,like a .223 maybe,very economical and accurate
I have not tried Unique in the 308,i use 9 grains and the 165 sil boolit in my TC Contender 30-30 and its a one holler at 50 yards.
Perhaps your rifle needs a thourough cleaning and lots of seasoning afterwards before you will get consistent accuracy.
I have not cleaned the bore on mine since the switch to cast and have no intention to fix something when it works.
Oh and as suggested ,try fatter boolits i size mine at .310. Good luck.
Another thing i forgot to mention,i notch the cavities on all my rifle molds so i can index the rounds the same way in the chamber every time. I find it makes even more of a difference than only weighing but i also weigh the boolits if im planning to shoot groups off the bench.

[44man]

I bet I know the problem---boolit run out.
It is a hard problem to solve with cast in a rifle case. You can gently seat a boolit in a straight case and easily get .020" or more run out.
Even my inline seaters do it. I had to go to larger expanders to help.
Roll a load over a table top and just watch the boolit wobble!

[cbrick]

I've never had much luck with fast powders in a case as large as the 308 when using 180 gr boolits.

By all means slug the bore and then size .002" over groove diameter. Use a micrometer NOT calipers.

A great load in my 308's is 19.0 gr SR4759, standard primer and the RCBS 180 in either SP or FP. Straight clip-on WW with 2% Sn. Same powder/charge with 160 gr boolits also shoots very well.

Rick

[1Shirt]

There is a lot of wisdom in the responses here. Have a few savages and a stevens (old Sav 110) and they all shoot better than me. Hard to over emphaise getting all of the copper out, and a proper size blt. My M-10 Sav 308 wants .311, my Stevens 308 wants .310 or .311 depending on which blt used. (And that can make a difference depending on bearing surface).
1Shirt!

[44man]

There is a lot of wisdom in the responses here. Have a few savages and a stevens (old Sav 110) and they all shoot better than me. Hard to over emphaise getting all of the copper out, and a proper size blt. My M-10 Sav 308 wants .311, my Stevens 308 wants .310 or .311 depending on which blt used. (And that can make a difference depending on bearing surface).
1Shirt!
Have you ever noticed that the larger the diameter, the harder it is to get a straight load?
I recently got back into rifles with cast and it is just crazy to reduce run out.

[Larry Gibson]

Stick with 1 variable in testing, you are flock shooting.........let's standardize everything except the powder charge.

Your alloy is probably too hard ("foundry hardball" ?); suggest you add 40% lead to it for such low end loads.
Get a .311 sizer.
Seat GCs, size and lube with the LLA according to Lee's instructions.
8-12 gr of Unique is the very low end for Unique in the .308W with a 180 gr cast. Start at 12 gr and work to 14.5 gr in 1/2 gr increments.

If you find a good load in there (you should) then you can begin to vary one thing at a time to get other type loads. If you want less velocity/recoil the switch to Bullseye powder. I've never had very good luck getting consistent accuracy with such loads using any slower powder. Start at 6 gr and work up to to 9 gr. When you find a good load probably around 1200 - 1400 fps with the GC'd bullet then you can load some sans the GC and then work back down looking for satisfacory accuracy w/o the GC. My experience is it will be under 1100 fps if you find it.

If you feel the need for a little mor oomph then I suggest and alloy of 70-30% foundry - lead, GC the bullets, lube well with LLA and load over 28 gr 4895 with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

[gotin]

Maybe run out is the culprit - now that you mentioned it I remember that there were two of the 180 grain rounds that would not chamber completely. They both had a dent on one side of the bullets after I pulled them out of the chamber like they were hitting something sideways.
I discarded them thinking that they were deformed when dropped hot from the mold and that is the reason I switched to the shorter 120 grain bullets.
I will load some rounds and see if the case.
I just looked it up, same suggest seating the bullets in stages, with rotating the round after every stage - that would be hard to do in a progressive press, is there something else I can do that will help? I am using Lee dies, will other dies make a difference?

[cajun shooter]

I will agree with Larry except I prefer using Carnuba Red for lube over the Alox and a 168 Sil bullet.
If you are shooting all over, it's because of two things. One is as most posters said and that is size. Your Savage will most likly slug out at .308 so you need at least a .310-.311 bullet. The next thing is what 44Man posted and that is run out.
Make sure your seater punch fits your bullet and is not deforming the nose first. Then if you have the correct equipment such as a Cabin Tree tester, check your runout. If you are using a two die system, try seating the bullet in small increments while turning the case in the shell holder. This will help some. The best seater to use is the Forester Micrometer die. Later David

[grouch]

It has most often been bullet alloy that has caused me problems like yours. Are you using an alloy that has been successful for you before?
I've used linotype both straight and mixed with an equal weight of lead. Now, I use either 18:1 lead and tin or wheel weights and 2% tin, the latter either air cooled or water dropped.
Most of my rifles will show a preference for one of these, but
any of them should get you a starting point.
Grouch

[CJR]

As recommended by others, a thorough barrel solvent cleaning is required FIRST. Also, I believe the Lee 180 gr bullet is a bore-rider design. Have you checked inserting a bare CB into the muzzle to see if its forward bore-riding part is actually riding the bore and not just a loose fit. The CB's forward bore-riding section should be a slight press-fit in the muzzle. If it's a loose-fit, then only the rear bearing length is supporting the CB and the loose bore-riding can allow the CB to yaw/tilt/tip in the bore as it travels to the muzzle. When CBs yaw in a barrel, they are typically inaccurate.

Best regards,

CJR

[popper]

You didn't state which your first loads were or the distance you were shooting. I recommend 50 to begin, at least you usually can keep them on paper, especially with the drop of reduced loads. Secondly, alloy is way too hard. Think pistol velocity. I had trouble when shooting stiff loads and then unique loads, until I realized the recoil is so much different that I wasn't considering the time in bbl and trigger pull. Kind of reverse flinch. As you have been reloading and shooting mosin I assume you are a good caster and reloader.

[NVScouter]

Scope or mounts?

You said it shot decent then you changed the scope to a Nikon and it wouldnt shoot.

[Junior1942]

Scope or mounts?

You said it shot decent then you changed the scope to a Nikon and it wouldnt shoot.Yep, plus you might have a mount screw or two bottomed out in the hole.

[gotin]

I tried the FMJ bullets to check if I have the same bad accuracy with them too. Since they shoot fine, it is the lead bullets that are causing the problem.
I just realized that according to my calipers the Lee sizer sizes them down to .3085, I guess that is way too small.
I will get a bigger resizer and see how that will affect the accuracy.

[facetious]

I tryed the Lee 170gr in my .308 and it didn't shoot to good at all, tryed sticking the nose in the end of the barrel . It slid right in and was loose enough that i could turn it. Later I got a mold from LBT . LCFN 170 now it is all i use in my .308, fits like a jacked bullet.

[Doc Highwall]

gotin, I would suggest that you use a Lyman M-Die that measures 001"-.002" Max smaller then the size of your bullet you are shooting.

I shoot a .310" and expand the case neck I.D. with a .309" expander. Sometimes you will have to buy a expander that is slightly larger and file it down using a hand drill or drill press to hold it.

[detox]

There was almost no leading in the barrel.


Are you sure? You said first few shots were OK then things went down hill from there. Sounds like a leading problem to me. I would clean that barrel real good with some JB bore paste? Some say Moly lube works verywell at preventing lead build up. You could try lubing your bullets and coating your NEW barrel with Lyman's moly lube before firing to prevent leading. Afterwards clean your NEW barrel with Kroil (removes moly) and JB bore paste to polish barrel. To use JB paste wrap a cleaning patch around a slightly snug wire brush, apply paste and scub back and forth not exiting the barrel (take care of that crown). A bore guide works good at protecting the rifle leads.
Lyman makes this nasty Moly lube and currently on sale at Midway.

[gotin]

Thank you all for the replies, I believe that thanks to your advise I figured what the problem was. Or problems.
When I saw the Lyman M die mentioned I just remembered that the first few rounds I loaded were expanded with the M die. Then, when I started loading gas-checked bullets i decided that it was not expanding the throat enough and i switched it with the Lee universal expanding die. All the rounds that were all over the place were actually loaded with the Lee die.
Then I measured the diameter of the cast bullets after resizing and it turned out that my Lee sizer die was sizing them to .3085. After a bit of lapping I got it to size at .310. I resized some left-over bullets and loaded them last night.
Well, today I took some samples and went to the range and what a difference they made!
Nice groups, some under 1", without even trying too hard.

Thanks guys.

[MikeS]

gotin - It's good to hear that you have your problem figured out. One suggestion, rather than measuring with a caliper use a micrometer, they're much more accurate than calipers are. You might want to try shooting some unsized. Either lube them by hand, or pan lube them, or tumble lube if that's what you've been doing.

[Jeff Michel]

Too small, too hard. Try .311 or .312, 20 grains of 4198 or 16grains of 2400.

[44man]

I can tell you a lot about Savage rifles. Even the dirt cheap kits are super guns. I don't think I ever had one here that would not shoot.
One time I had one here with the barrel in crooked and it could not be sighted. The guy only shot factory loads so I shimmed the scope. The darn thing shot under 1" at 100 so I left it alone. He has shot a ton of deer and is happy.

[popper]

Lee universal expanding die Only expands case mouth, not the neck. Try the 303 M plug for cast, then the Lee tool if the bell isn't enough. Using the GC to size the neck results in lousy neck tension and accuracy. Lee sizers aren't spot on but the result size will depend on the alloy spring back. Using foundry hardball (92/6/2 - hard) then cutting it by 3-4 for a good plinker alloy, they may size way large.