Colt new service in .41

[mannyCA]

Have a chance at one of these in pretty good shape in this caliber, can anyone enlighten me as to how I need to load these? I cast and load my own so preparing rounds shouldn’t be a problem. The gun is pr e WW1 with a fair amount of bluing lost but no rust. Do I need to make my own brass? I’ve got trailboss and unique on hand or is this strictly blackpowder only?
Thanks for any info.

[gunfan]

The Fine, Old .41 Long Colt

By Mike Hudson



Colt .41 revolver. Photo by Mike Hudson
Maybe it’s all the gun writers I read as a kid, but I’ve always been a sucker for the oddball cartridges. I’ll take a .38 S&W revolver over a .380 Auto any day as a pocket pistol and, for my money, the 7.62 Nagant and the seven shot revolver that fires it stands head and shoulders above the .32 S&W, the .32-20 and even the .32 H&R Mag as a trail outfit.

My go-to rifle is chambered in the wonderful 6.5 Arisaka and, if I was headed for Africa, I think I’d have to buy a Ruger Mk. 1 in .405 Winchester. My shotgun is, of course, is a 16 gauge, a fine old Fox B Model with the 2-3/4” chambers I prefer.

Each of these cartridges, it seems to me, has been shamefully neglected by the big gun and ammunition companies over the years and also by the modern gun writers who depend on the corporations for their livelihoods. Their stories are tales of woe, as the guns that made them famous were gradually phased out by the manufacturers (if they were ever commercially produced at all), leading the ammo producers to gradually limit and, in many cases, discontinue the rounds completely. Oftentimes, a new cartridge was introduced and touted as being equal in performance to the old one, or said to be vastly superior, although they rarely have been.

Which brings me to my current obsession, the .41 Long Colt, a cartridge remembered mostly today because the company’s popular Python model and others chambered in .357 Magnum are said to be manufactured on the “. 41 frame.” Introduced in 1877 along with the famous Colt Lightning double action revolver, the .41 LC was immediately popular. Colt also chambered its Single Action Army for the round and it became the fourth most popular chambering in the venerable old sixgun.

Billy the Kid had a .41 Colt Lightning on him the night he was shot from ambush by Sheriff Pat Garrett and John Wesley Hardin was similarly armed when he was shot in the back of the head by old John Selman at the Acme Saloon in El Paso in 1895. In 1892, Colt introduced its New Model Army and Navy in both .38 and .41 Long Colt, turning out 291,000 of them before production was discontinued in 1904. Teddy Roosevelt carried one of these in .38 caliber during his famous charge up Kettle Hill in the Spanish American War, killing one enemy rifleman and missing another. “My revolver was from the sunken battleship Maine and had been given to me by my brother-in-law, Capt. W.S. Cowles of the Navy,” Roosevelt noted.

For civilian use, experienced handgunners chose the .41 for social purposes. Even today it is nearly ideal for home defense, firing a heavy, blunt lead bullet at a relatively modest velocity and with modest recoil, while still packing plenty of punch.

Elmer Keith waxed eloquent on the merits of the .41 LC, comparing it very favorably to the .38 Special in a discussion of Colt’s Army Special, which was available in either caliber. “In .41 caliber, the Army Model became much more popular than in .38 caliber, as the big, blunt nose 200-grain slug was an excellent manstopper while the round nose .38 Special definitely was not,” he wrote.

Keith was, of course, talking about the original loading of the .38 Special, which pushed its 158 grain pill out at 770 feet per second, generating 200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. Better loads are certainly available today, but the old loading remains popular, filling the cylinders of thousands of revolvers intended by their owners to provide for self defense.

In comparison, original loadings for the 41 Long Colt threw its soft lead 200 grain slug at 750 fps with 237 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, a loading that remained constant until Winchester-Western, the last company to offer the round, finally discontinued it in the late 1970s. At longer ranges, the .38 Special has it all over the old .41. However, up close and personal I’d take the .41 LC any day of the week.

Reloaders can match the old factory ballistics by using 3.5 grains of Bullseye behind any of a number of Rapine hollow-based .386” diameter bullets offered by the various bullet makers. Those who don’t mind shooting black powder can fill the cases with 19 grains of FFFg with the same bullets for nearly identical results. New brass is available from Starline.

The hollow based bullet, looking rather like a Civil War Minie Ball, was designed to upset the enough when fired to fill the revolver’s bore, which measures .401”. As I indicated, the .41 LC is not a target round.

Keith wrote that he was able to get 880 fps by using 5.0 grains of Unique, but I don’t believe I’d want to try that load in my Colt New Navy, which left the factory brand new just 111 years ago. The load was carried for years in the old Ideal Handbook, but today should only be used in the Colt Single Action Army or New Service models, which are built on .45 frames, or the Official Police model, which was chambered in .41 LC between 1928 and 1930.

Those who don’t reload are rather more limited in their choice of ammo. Stars and Stripes Custom Ammunition and other specialty manufacturers offer .41 LC, but it ain’t cheap. The alternative is to scrounge around at gun shows and on the Internet looking for some shootable originals, which aren’t cheap either, generally running around two-thirds the price of the new stuff. I’ve found all of it to be acceptable, delivering groups of between two and three inches at 15 yards, which is more than adequate for personal defense. Recoil is mild.

When Cowboy Action shooting began catching on a few years back, I thought it would lead to a resurgence of the .41 LC. Sadly, my hopes were dashed. While guns and ammo became available in such infinitely more obscure and inferior calibers as the .44 Colt, .38 Long Colt, and the .45 Schofield became available, the .41 LC remains in limbo.

Which is too bad. Because, when used for the purpose for which it was designed, short range defense, the .41 LC remains as effective as it ever was.

[smkummer]

I don't believe the New Service was ever chambered in 41 Long Colt. Are you sure its not a Army Special?

[Bodydoc447]

Starline makes new brass. Bullets can be bought from custom casters or at home. We have a .41 mould group buy going on (search for it in active buys subforum). Redding makes dies. Neat old caliber and fun to shoot. I use a gentle load of Bullseye in my Colt DA.

Doc

[nicholst55]

IIRC the .41 LC uses a heel-type bullet, and the chambers are drilled straight through. I'd expect a suitable mold would be a custom proposition. Run a search, because someone did some work with this cartridge maybe two years ago on this forum. Maybe he'll see this thread and chime in.

[rintinglen]

I had an Army Special in 41 Long Colt briefly. Good gun, but terrible cartridge, IMO. "Better manstopper than any 38?" Yeah, right. This is another instance wherein Old Elmer let his imagination run wild.
The 41 Long Colt bullet was actually a .386, while the bore was .401, same as a 38-40, and accuracy was miserable. A factory bullet would drop right through the bore of my gun without slowing down. They were factory loaded with hollow base bullets at very low velocities. At the time, I didn't have a chronograph, but I distinctly recall shooting one into a stump, and seeing the base of the bullet protruding.
Ammo was scarce. I had searched over heck and gone, finally finding 2 boxes of old Blue and Yellow box Western Luballoy cartridges at a pawn shop in San Diego. I also got a set of dies from the bargain box of a local, Oceanside, Gun shop. I bought a Lyman 386-178 for mine, since factory reloading components were not to be had. It was a hollow base design that was supposed to throw 200 grain boolits, but mine ran about 20 grains lighter IIRC. That was a challenge to cast with. I could get about 50 keepers an hour. I could not get the gun to group for beans, so I traded it for something else. "Only accurate guns are interesting." It weren't.
I have seen modern manufacture Ultramax 41 LC for sale at gun shows, and Starline lists brass for it. I suppose one of the custom casters may offer boolits for sale, or you could get Tom at Accurate Molds to make you a heel-base boolit mold like the original Colt Thunderers used.
Good Luck on your "new" gun.

[Harry O]

http://harryo.sixshootercommunity.org/

[gunfan]

IMHO, this is one time that an old cartridge should be "retired." I have always had a bit of hesitation when it comes to "heel" type bullets in modern center-fire revolvers. While a good specimen can work moderately well, consistent performance is another "kettle-of-fish." If someone built a modern version of the revolver and it were properly heat treated, it might perform a marginally better than a hot .38 S&W Special.

I think that the .41 Colt was not Colt Industry's "best effort."

Scott

[Harry O]

I agree that the 41 Long Colt is not up to present day standards, but it was not so bad when it was originally built (1887). Even S&W was using heel-based bullets in cartridges back then. I would not use it for self-defense at the present time, but it works great in CAS and is a lot of fun to shoot. The fact is, it can be made to shoot as well as most service, hi-cap 9mm pistols that I have shot.

Interestingly enough, I have a modern, flat-base, custom-made SWC bullet mould that was made for 41LC brass. It cannot be used with ANY accuracy of any kind in an original 41LC (it is neither heel-based nor hollow-based). I tracked down the person who had it made and found out that he had a custom revolver made for it. It was made from a Colt Python frame revolver. The barrel was sized to 0.385" and the cylinder was made with a 0.386" throat. He loaded it to magnum pressures. It was almost EXACTLY halfway between a .357 Magnum and a .44 Magnum in both diameter and weight. The recoil was halfway between them, too. That was before Starline started making cases again so he was doing that with original cases without failures. Naturally, they were not balloon-head cases (but, I have used them with BP).

I have long wanted to do that, but the cost has been the problem. I guess I will stick with the .357 Magnum for anything serious.

BTW, it has been mentioned that Elmer Keith said the velocity was 880fps. In the many thousands of them I have shot, none of them were anywhere near that fast, no matter what the powder used. 750fps to 800fps is about all that can be expected in that caliber and gun.

[MtGun44]

Ran into one a while back and spent some time researching the cartridge. Once I understood what a mess
they had made of that one, I ran away. Straight through cylinder and massively undersized boolit! YIKES!

I'm sure it will go bang, and if you hit something, it has substantial power. The odds of accuracy reaching the
"bushel basket at 20 ft" level is highly questionable.

There are also some really "interesting" features in how the action works and locks up. Not biting.

To misquote Townsend Whelen - "The only interesting pistols are accurate pistols."

Bill

[mannyCA]

Smkummer, you are correct, double checked with the seller and it is an army special.
Harryo, excellent reference site. Thanks.

[Bodydoc447]

I came into mine as a "junk" revolver that belonged to my grandfather's brother who was a police officer. It was his revolver and over the years fell into disrepair. I have rather enjoyed tinkering with it and the cartridge. I have one of the rapine HB moulds and some original brass and some Starline brass. When I was at a CAS event many years ago a vendor gave me a coffee can full of heeled bullets for me to try and report back. The heeled bullets did just fine as did my HB cast ones. Just fine being hitting the targets of opportunity I shot them at not fine bullseye accuracy. It is a hobby gun, not a bullseye or hunting gun for me. So I am happy with minute of dirt clod and bringing some life into a family gun.

Doc

[gunfan]

"Elmer Keith waxed eloquent on the merits of the .41 LC, comparing it very favorably to the .38 Special in a discussion of Colt’s Army Special, which was available in either caliber. 'In .41 caliber, the Army Model became much more popular than in .38 caliber, as the big, blunt nose 200-grain slug was an excellent manstopper while the round nose .38 Special definitely was not,' he wrote.

Keith was, of course, talking about the original loading of the .38 Special, which pushed its 158 grain pill out at 770 feet per second, generating 200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. Better loads are certainly available today, but the old loading remains popular, filling the cylinders of thousands of revolvers intended by their owners to provide for self defense.

In comparison, original loadings for the 41 Long Colt threw its soft lead 200 grain slug at 750 fps with 237 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, a loading that remained constant until Winchester-Western, the last company to offer the round, finally discontinued it in the late 1970s. At longer ranges, the .38 Special has it all over the old .41. However, up close and personal I’d take the .41 LC any day of the week."

At 750 fps the 200 grain .386" bullets would have moderately good penetration, but I would rather have a little less frontal area and better penetration the modern .38 S&W Special will supply. A 200-grain .357" lead bullet from a .38 trucking along at 750 fps will provide greater penetrative capabilities.

Yep, the .41 Colt is a true relic that should find it's way into honored retirement.

Scott

[.22-10-45]

In spite of it's lack of target accuracy...Colt saw fit to produce 24 flattop target Bisley revolvers in this caliber!..But then they also produced 1 flattop target in .44 smoothbore..go figure!

[gunfan]

Colt's never been "the brightest bulb in the package" when it came to product development and packaging. They've always relied on their name to carry them through.

Scott

[smkummer]

gunfan, your stepping on the toes of Colt collectors, while the 41 never had a cap and ball history, at the time of metalic cartidge development, several ideas have come and gone. Most likely Colt sold the chambering well into the modern era because of a following of people who used the cartridge. The original loading of a outside lubricated bullet probably preformed as accurate as anything but loading a hollow base cartridge inside the case if nothing else looked modern. I would agree that it is a cartridge I would not load just to try it, but if a friend or family member wanted to shoot grampa's old gun I might help them out.

[gunfan]

It may prove fun, but it seems an "exercise in futility." The .32 caliber "family" holds far more interest than the .41. The .32's accuracy is legendary.

Scott

[Piedmont]

It may prove fun, but it seems an "exercise in futility." The .32 caliber "family" holds far more interest than the .41. The .32's accuracy is legendary.

Scott
Well it wouldn't be an exercise in futility if you made one with a .385 barrel and .386 cylinder throats and a step in the chamber. It would still work with factory or handloaded .386" hollowbase bullets, but would no longer require them. The .38 special has a reputation for accuracy and so would this one, done right.

A downside is brass costs 3-4 times normal.

Many times I have considered commissioning a custom revolver in this chambering, but a 200 grain bullet mold for my .38 special appears to be a lot cheaper!

[gunfan]

Well it wouldn't be an exercise in futility if you made one with a .385 barrel and .386 cylinder throats and a step in the chamber. It would still work with factory or handloaded .386" hollowbase bullets, but would no longer require them. The .38 special has a reputation for accuracy and so would this one, done right.

A downside is brass costs 3-4 times normal.

Many times I have considered commissioning a custom revolver in this chambering, but a 200 grain bullet mold for my .38 special appears to be a lot cheaper!

That's an awful lot of expense to revive an old cartridge. The 200-grain .38 S&W Special is far more practical.

Scott

[smkummer]

That's an awful lot of expense to revive an old cartridge. The 200-grain .38 S&W Special is far more practical.

Scott Your right, I stumbled on a single cavity Lyman 195 grain mold (weighs over 200 when cast with WW alloy) for the 38 that has a very blunt RN. I had to have it so as to simulate the old 41 Colt load but I didn't stop there. I loaded some data from the Lyman 45th edition and had that bullet chronographed in the 850 FPS range out of a 4 in. Colt Official Police (same gun as the army special). The bullets are very close to the end of the cylinder when crimped in the crimp groove and look intimidating from the business end of the gun. They really smack the metal plates also.

[gunfan]

I am sorry if I seemed insulting, but the "heel-type" bullet survives in the .22 Short/Long/Long Rifle with good cause. It is a "disposable" cartridge and has far lower tolerance requirements.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Scott