How slow have you shot a 38 spl 200 gr?

[DrCaveman]

I am tinkering with minimum loads for the 38/200. I found 500 fps with 7.0 gr imr 4227 through a 2" barrel LCR.

All the other starting loads with comparable velocity were too small to measure reliably through my lee auto disk. This included trail boss, unique, and ramshot competition.

I am looking for a bottom-end floor for velocity here. I figure that the 2" barrel will help with preventing stuck boolits since it doesn't take much oomph to get down that barrel.

Using Lyman 358430 boolit. The idea is to create a REALLY unstable boolit, that may begin tumbling while in flight. Maybe stupid but water jugs should feel the hurt.

I know about the 'nerf' reputation for these type of rounds, and I have found plenty of bad-*** loads with this boolit that would absolutely punch through a face or torso. That's not what I am looking for.

Anyone tried this? Is the accuracy likely to be as pitiful as I suspect? Granted, for this load to work it only needs minute-of-torso accuracy at 7 yds max.

Thanks

Edit: I did not try trail boss, my mistake. That may be the ticket, but I would still appreciate any input. Loading up some with 5.0 gr imr 4227 now, wondering whether that is a bad idea...

[John in WI]

That's an interesting idea. I've never tried it, but from what I heard that was one of the problems (or benifits?) of the old backwards HB wadcutter out of a snubby. That the majority tumbled right out of the barrel.

I have to wonder if the only thing worse for a jug of water than a sideways boolit, is a faster sideways boolit?

[2shot]

What alloy are you using?

I have shot these with 30-1 in my S&W model 60 and have found that being that soft they expand at low velocities or bend and wrap around bone taking out big chunks. When soft enough they tend to have some "bit" when hitting bone instead of sliding off or just punching straight through.

2shot

[DrCaveman]

Good idea, 2shot. I am using my conglomerate/mishmash/recycled lead for about everything now except batches I plan to water drop, for those I add a scoop of magnum shot. This alloy was born of clip on wheel weights, but I haven't bought any in 6 months or so.

Bhn was about 15 last I tested. Prob a good time for another test to see where things are at. I was thinking of trying the 'soft point' method shown in a sticky on this forum, but your idea would be easier. Pressures should be ridiculously low if I meet my goal... Prob 5-7000 psi.

[2shot]

I know I have described this before so bare with me.

I had my M-60 with me while sitting in a deer stand but my weapon of choice that day was my scope sighted 657 41 mag. I had a doe come walking straight at me and looked as if she was going to walk right up the ladder of the stand so I drew my M-60 loaded with the 358430 200 grain bullets cast 30-1. My 657 was useless at that close range with a scope on it. When she was directly under me and off to one side a bit I aimed for the backbone between the shoulder blades knowing that I could drop her with a spine shot. The distance was about 6 feet and at the shot the deer just crumpled right there and didn't move. The shot had been off somewhat and ended up hitting the top of the shoulder blade on the near side. The bullet split the shoulder blade in half and continued across the chest cavity and down the leg bone on the far side splitting the femur (top leg bone?) lenght wise like a crab leg would be split. The bullet exited out the knee and plowed into the ground taking chunks of bone with it as it exited. The load was with the 358430 bullet and enough Unique to get it to about 750fps or there abouts. I was shocked at the damage this soft bullet had done figuring that it would just drill a straight hole through the deer. It tore open the leg as if I had wacked the deer several times with a hatchet and several pieces of bone were on the ground underneath the deer. I don't know how it would act with just hitting soft tissue but when hitting bone it was devistating. I now use this load for my house guns and have no problem with using them. Suprisingly recoil isn't bad and my wife can handle them easily, much less recoil than some snubbies with 357 mags and I have a gun with as much stopping power IMHO.


It will be interesting to see what happens with just water jugs. Perhaps some riviting? That would work too and make the bullet more unstable.

2shot

[OBXPilgrim]

I tried some heavy slow 38s a while back.

I got a 358627 hollowpointed (great job Buckshot) and tried solid versus HPs to see which I liked better (and GC vs plain). Used just over 3 grs (work it up from there) of Unique in a 4" S&W mdl15. The plain HPs shot best! Last thing I wanted to do was stress a 4 screw mdl 15, so I kept everything pretty slow, but haven't played with it anymore since. Sounds like it would be a good one to work on.

[45sixgun]

I've loaded up some really low power .38's. They're fun and accurate and don't make much noise. I use 1.5 grains of Clays powder with 158 gr. bullets. I seat the bullets real deep. You can see by the impact photos that they're still pretty powerful. No problems getting out of my 4 5/8 inch BH.

6263062631

[gunfan]

The old 200-grain .38 S&W Special loafing along at 750 fps was cataloged in the old Remington-Peters circulars as late as 1966. I was an 11 year old lad at the time, and asked Dad about the practicality of such a round. Father told me of the enduring precept of how many pine boards being penetrated would constitute a "man stopping" load. (We were a very "gunny " household.)

Scott

[DrCaveman]

Gunfan

What was the verdict according to your dad? How many pine boards needed to be penetrated in order to be a 'man stopper'? And did the 200 gr loads you mentioned meet that goal?

Just curious. If I 'hit my target' so to speak I will bust through one board and that's it.

[Wayne Smith]

If my poor memory serves it was a minimum of six 3/4" pine boards 1" apart. Yes, the British load met the standard.

[bobthenailer]

You should be able to go as low as 4 or 500 fps , try using Tightgroup or Bullseye powder around 2 to 2.5 gr of powder. much lower velocity and the bullet possibly may stick in the barrel ?

[DrCaveman]

For what it is worth, I managed the boolit out of my ruger gp100 6" barrel with a tiny little charge of 4.5 gr imr 4227. Thought for sure one would stick, but none did! I forgot to bring my LCR out to the woods, so I reluctantly tested in the big ruger.

Chrono showed 280 fps average for 10 shots! I didnt know it registered that low!

at 10 yds I could discern the pop from primer and the whack on the target. Accuracy was actually OK, I put 4 of the first 6 in the 3" ring. Report was absolutely less than my 22LR pistol. Took off my muffs just to see, and it was the quietest round I have ever shot.

BUT, I now understand the concept of "unburned kernels". They littered the gun, and a few cases had enough in there to literally pour out. I am 99% sure these were not skeletons of burned powder...they still had mass, rigidity, and odor of imr 4227.

So I think I took this a little too far, time to try a slightly faster powder. I think I just will find a better way to measure unique at tiny charges as I look for my goal of ~400 fps. The deer killing description above is encouraging. FWIW I saw NO evidence of instability or boolit tumbling. Bummer.

[2shot]

It may take the bullet striking something to start the instability that you are looking for. If you do your water jug test maybe put something solid between the jugs like dowel rods or pieces of thin plywood to see how stable these 200 grainers are when striking something other that water or a paper target. You also might want to try using a empty 22 case with a wire attatched for a scoop and see what kind of charge that would give with Unique.

I have never done small powder charges with this 200 grainer but I have done them with the Lee 358-105 SWC and 1 grain of Bullseye. The boolit cleared my 6" barrel and I could watch them in flight on a indoor 50 foot range. Interesting test and the report was less that a 22 LR and fairly accurate with zero recoil. I was looking for a backyard squirrel round but gave up because of ricochets. I used my Redding powder measure for these and it gave 1 grain +- 1/10 constantly with BE, I wouldn't expect that accuracy with Unique though.

2shot.

[Andrew Mason]

If my poor memory serves it was a minimum of six 3/4" pine boards 1" apart. Yes, the British load met the standard.

are these plywood boards? or just plain straight grain pine?
was it soaked in water?

[smkummer]

I mistakenly dumped unigue into the hopper instead of bullseye awhile back. It ended up being 3.4 grains behind a 158 SWC. I was getting into the 525 FPS range and one could actually see the bullets fired at the 25 yard dark backstop in flight. They all worked but I have no need to go that light.

[GabbyM]

Lyman 45th list the #358430 on a 38 Special.
Start laod of Bullseye is 2.0 grains for 530 fps.
9.5gr of 2400 runs 893 fps.
Factory duplication load is 3.8 gr of the old Unique for 703 fps. Max laod of Unique is 4.1gr for 772 fps.
From my notes: Anything under 825 fps will tumble after impact.

[lavenatti]

I bought a kilo of Rex 0 a while back. I use 1.5 grains behind a 148 grain boolit for nice quiet loads I can shoot anywhere. I use a .22 bullet trap to reclaim the lead.

No problems as long as a heavy crimp is used.

That's over 10,000 rounds out of the one can of powder. Shame Rex isn't around anymore.

[9.3X62AL]

THIS has been one of the more interesting threads posted lately. This is not a direction I've taken Lyman #358430 to date, but I can attest to its inherent accuracy at all speeds I've run it at (650-1200 FPS), and to its tendency to tumble upon contact with critters at 38 S&W and 38 Special speeds. I haven't tried as many of the NEI 169A roundnose on animated targets to give a certain answer, but those also seem to be tumbling after they hit jackrabbits. The S&W M&P will go along on my next coyote/jackrabbit hunt this week, and I hope to derive more data with their cooperation. On a more subjective note......both of these 200 grain nominal 38s hit with a decisive whallop at any speed that isn't present with 150 grain-class bullets in this caliber.

[2shot]

On a more subjective note......both of these 200 grain nominal 38s hit with a decisive whallop at any speed that isn't present with 150 grain-class bullets in this caliber.


I have noticed the same when shooting at game or into a clay river bank. They do have a different kind of "pop" to them when stiking diry or clay that is distictively different from lesser weight bullets.

2shot

[quasi]

when the Brits switched from the .455-265 grn load to the .38-200 S&W RN load, they claimed their bullet design "approximated" the .455 in a lighter gun.

[9.3X62AL]

My view of the NEI #169A @ 700 FPS.......I won't carry it as counter-bad-guy ammo, but I sure as hell won't stand downrange to field them with a catcher's glove for recycling, either. It's a small game and varmint whacker, for me at least.

[Wolfer]

Comparing apples to oranges here I guess but my 58 rem shoots a 200 gr RF lee boolit at a fuzz over 700 fps. I've killed two deer with this load and certainly don't feel unarmed while packing it.

Haven't tried loading down the 38. Hmm

[DrCaveman]

i tried out some loads using a spent 22lr case as dipper with unique.

got me about 2.5 gr, when shaken a little so the powder settled ~1/8" below mouth. Surely the charges were not all equal, but I wasnt about to weigh each individually... this is not 1000 yd sniper.

Average velocity over 9 rounds was 456 fps. SD was 19.6 so I guess it ended up being fairly uniform charge level, I have gotten much worse using a metered charge.
Accuracy was hard to tell because I just seem to suck at shooting snubbies. Guess there is a technique there that I dont yet understand. I was able to hit the 4" orange target spot 2 out of 5 from about 7 yds. the other 3 were probably close but not really sure.

anyway this experiment may have finally run its course...i was able to shoot factory 125 +p hollow points into the orange every shot. I should be able to duplicate this load with my stockpile of 125 hp jacketed boolits, and it will serve its purpose. Until i get a 125 hp mold for 38 spl, I will make due.

Not like this gun (Ruger LCR 38) is that fun to shoot anyway. Mostly bought it for super-deep conceal and backup bedstand gun. For long hikes/backpacking it is great because it weighs nothing. And with a cylinder full of +p hollow points and an extra speedloader cylinder full, it outta get the job done if any wolves, crackheads, or small bears come knocking on my tent.

Prob better to just load the 358430 to full 38 spl strength, not worrying about the tumbling/stability issue. If I can barely hit the target, I better at least wreck it when I do. Seems that a 200 gr slug hitting bone @ 600-700 fps is not to be taken lightly.

[9.3X62AL]

No matter what load ya choose, a hit with any of them won't do the recipient a whole lotta good--that is a certainty.

[2shot]

Perhaps a faster powder that Unique? I've always found accuracy lacking when using Unique in light charges.

By keeping your boolits soft they will work well at any velocity.

2shot

[45sixgun]

Yesterday I loaded a .38 round with 2 gr. of Clays and a 164 gr. boolit seated deep. I set up a piece of 2x4 at 30 feet. Blew right through it no problem. Accurate, fairly quiet, and perfect for critters around the property. Shooting a .357 BH.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FJGVWzGp_80/UUfMQ8a4d7I/AAAAAAAAasA/BUAUQ59fUOc/s800/P1110929-001.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Vb2urDIl17E/UUfMZEquqjI/AAAAAAAAasI/N5u3Ka4oLpA/s800/P1110931-001.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_MhU4hQyx_I/UUfMg7eJTtI/AAAAAAAAasQ/TvhLch01f8k/s800/P1110934-001.JPG

[country gent]

I loaded the 200 grn roundnose in 357 mag cases to around 800 fps for my wifes ruger security six 4" revolver. This was a target / bowling pin load. They were very accurate and seemed to throw the pins better than a hot 158 with less recoil. Was a very interesting load and was barley stableized. A piece of heavy cardboard would produce keyholes in a piece of paper 6" behind it. A boolit that long traveling sideways dumps alot of energy into the target. That was the englishes reasoning for the heavy boolits use. Boolit expansion in a handgun was non existent in that time period so they came up with a 200 grain boolit that was stable until it hit something.