changing birdshot to slug

[miner49r]

I have been seeing all over youtube that people are cutting open shot shells, mixing the shot with wax, and pouring mixture back into the hull for a poor mans slug. I paln on trying a few.

Here I go thinking again... Why not cast the shot into a slug and put said slug over existing load?

[izzyjoe]

i don't see the point, i'd just use buckshot. but if you don't have buckshot, then it would be worth a try.

[35remington]

Why not shoot shot as shot? It's far more valuable that way than as a slug. At current rates shot is worth around 8.5 cents or more, right now a bit more, for one ounce. If you're paying $1.36 per pound for lead or more, then melt that shot and make a slug out of it. If you are paying less per pound break out the slug mould and mould them out of your scrounged lead instead.

The shot cast as a slug may not fit in the existing wad correctly for a proper crimp. Depends upon what kind of slug.

[longbow]

In my opinion the only benefit of doing the wax/slug thing is to lob a load of shot further in solid form then have it break up on impact for destructive effect. It may be useful against relatively small predators or self defense against humans with bad intentions. It is not a slug and it will not penetrate like a slug, it will break up on impact if not before.

If you want an easy to make and easy to load slug using birdshot cartridges buy yourself a 0.662" or better a 0.678" round ball mould then buy 1 1/8 oz. birdshot loads, open them up pour out the shot melt, cast into balls and reload the hulls with the balls. 0.662" balls weigh exactly 1 oz in pure lead so a little under with hard lead and the 0.678" is just under 1 /18 oz. in pure lead so about 1+ oz in hard lead.

Balls are easy to cast, easy to load, can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards (under 6" groups) and penetrate like there is no tomorrow. Oh, 0.662" and 0.678" balls will fit in any standard shotcup for lead shot as well.

The Lee Drive Key slug mould is the next best option and is likely cheaper as the only other cheap ball moulds in the sizes required are the Dixie or TOTW scissor moulds and I think even they are more expensive than Lee.

Just my $0.02.

Longbow

[miner49r]

OK. So let's forget whether I am melting shot or casting from ingots. I have a boat load of 12 & 20 gauge #7.5 shot target loads.

With the todays prices on ammunition I was thinking of just replacing the birdshot with a slug. Lee has a 12 gauge mold that they claim can be loaded in standard shotgun trap hull with standard wads using a conventional folded crimp.

Can a slug replace the birdshot with the existing load function properly and safely?


Longbow,
I was composing this message when yours posted. Thanks

[miner49r]

Right or wrong I have started converting some of this Federal and Winchester economy target shells to slugs and in the near future probably #3 or #4 buckshot. Reading this forum I have found a great deal of knowledge on this subject. Thanks Guys.

The shotgun is a 20 gauge Stevens model 315 SxS Ranger that was probably won in a **** game by my grandfather. The loads started out as 7/8 oz. of #7-1/2 rated at 1200 fps. A Lee .572" ball mold is casting at 278 grains from wheel weights. At about 100 grains lighter than the shot load this ball should move out pretty good.

The Federal cup can take the ball without sizing. The first picture shows the wads with two and three cards under the ball. I am favoring the two card setup with an inset crimp. Two and a half cards would be perfect.
Does it matter if the crimp is an inny?
64181

The second photograph shows the Winchester wad with the ball sized to .556" to compensate for the thicker petals. Since the ball is now sort of a flat ended pill shape I am planning on bonding the ball to the wad to see how it would perform.
Does anyone think Shoe Goo would be strong enough?
64182

[M Hicks]

Making a wax slug with bird shot is basically making a frangible slug. When the slug hits its intended target it will cause the bird shot to break from slug form and revert to similar characteristics of a bird shot load at the muzzle. The energy deposited into the target will depend on the distance fired obviously. I have made and fired these in a 12 gauge with interesting results. The groups were good at 100 yards. About 5". They will penetrate cleanly through a metal filling cabinet at that distance

When i make them i end up putting less shot back in the shell because the wax takes up volume in the hull.

[longbow]

Okay then I apologize, I had assumed you were talking 12 ga. If 20 ga. then your selection of slug moulds is rather limited.

In all honesty for shooting to about 50 yards the round ball loads are hard to beat. Good round ball loads should produce groups of around 4" or better at 50 yards.

If you want to bond a ball to a wad I suggest getting unslit wads from BPI or whoever. Not sure of selection for 20 ga. but they sell 12 ga. steel shot wads that are quite thick and a good press fit for a 0.662" ball. These can make pretty good attached wad slugs simply by putting in enough nitro card wads to get the ball seated to just past the equator in the cup and no glue required. The cushion leg has to be pretty stiff for this to work though and generally I have found that the cushion legs distort and cause inaccuracy.

I have tried a variety of methods of attaching wads and cushion legs and for the most part found it did not work well. Another option is to make an AQ clone by making up a form that the ball fits in then drill the ball for a wood screw, put grease or some slick stuff on the form as mould release, slide the ball in with screw up then fill with hot melt glue. Once cool push out the ball and attached wad. That works quite well... but you have to make it all fit into a shotcup or paper patch or use some method to keep the glue away from the barrel or it will smear and make a mess. I make 12 ga. TC slugs using this method and load them into shotcups. They shoot not badly at all.

I use 1/2" CPVC couplings bored out to make my attached wad forms. Not sure if there is a close enough size to suit 20 ga. or not but you could use metal tubing or something else if not.

Plain round ball loads work pretty well though and are simple to make and load.

Longbow

[M Hicks]

The cushion leg has to be pretty stiff for this to work though and generally I have found that the cushion legs distort and cause inaccuracy.

Plain round ball loads work pretty well though and are simple to make and load.

Longbow

That is some good info Longbow. I have never messed with larger round ball loads in a shotgun but have a feeling it is about to begin.

[miner49r]

Hicks,
I thought that might be the case. The wax keeps the energy in a single mass until it hits it's target. Could be there are some uses for this.

Longbow,
It's all good. I am planning on doing 12 gauge. Per your previous suggestion a Lyman .678 ball mold arrived the other day and the fit is right on in both Win or Fed cups and hulls.

Continuing with the tailed 20 ga. idea... What was I thinking that I could bond anything to these nylon wad cups! The ball and cards fell right out of the cup but look like they should hold together after cup seperation. Could just be the trick.

A "Lee 58cal/440gr Real Bullet" sized to .569" and cut down to .700" weighs in at 7/8 ounce. (383 grn.) Using the Federal cup and piston looks promising. I may try the bullet upside down also.
64359

[M Hicks]

Miner,

There are uses for them. Some of them are the "he was thinking outside the box" type.

[singleshot]

Another "disposable" way to turn birdshot into a "slug" is to cut the shell in the middle of the wad. Only cut the shell, not the wad. Miss the original cut by 1/8" so the shell is held together loosely. When fired, it will act just like a slug. This is a quicker way, but obviously the shell is non-reusable since half of it becomes projectile.

[fcvan]

I haven't tried cut shells although there are lots of videos on the subject. I tried casting the shot and wax into a projectile that fit into the wad and that didn't work. The pressure at launch caused the wax and shot to separate. Since there was a lot of loose shot with wax on it the shot pattern expanded even more. I have now poured the hot wax and shot into the wad just like in the videos but I haven't shot them yet.

Last week, I purchased a Lee .690 RB mold and cast about 100 balls. I have been forming a single piece wad using paper pulp to center the ball. For my first test run the wads were not thick enough and the ball was about 1/8" below the fold crimp. My next test wads are drying.

Once the wads have dried they are not solid so they have some spring to them. I'm hoping this next batch does ok so I can take the wax/shot slugs and the round ball loads to the hills. Once I get good results I will write it up with pictures.

[longbow]

miner49r:

Yeah, Brenneke like slugs can be made like that. Greg Sappington made up some smoothbore slugs using BPI wads (IIRC) that were unslit. He pressed a properly sized slug in and had a simple attached wad slug that worked pretty well. He reported results here a couple of years ago. I tried using some steel shot wads I had (in fact Greg sent them to me) but the cushion leg was not stiff enough and distorted at firing so accuracy was not good. The idea is fine but you need a good wad/cushion leg.

It looks to me like that wad you are using is slit. If so then the petals will open and destroy any chance of accuracy. Get yourself some unslit wads and you should be good to go with that set up. The long stem may be a problem but you will have to try and see if it holds up. The new style Brennekes use an awfully long skinny stem too but they seem to work.

With that 0.678" RB, put at least one nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup then a small scoop of COW on top makes a nice cushion for the ball and sets the height for good crimp ~ you don't want a lot of petal sticking out past the ball. Those should shoot well for you.

Keep us posted on results.

Longbow

[mossbergman]

I'm with longbow on his advice for use of round balls in exchange for birdshot. Check out my recent threads... I just shot off like 200 rounds with the stuff in testing and can tell you that my grouping is 3-4' at 50 yds which is awsome and way better than even factory loads at the same distance. I used .680 scissor mould from track of the wolf with federal #8 and #7 1/2 birdshot for 12ga... the wads in that load is a two part wad... so after cutting the top 1/16" I used a .125 nitro card over the bottom piston typ wad and then placed the shot cup over the nitro card. However, through testing i found that cutting the shot cup at the midway point of the round ball produced the best results. The other thing i did was roll crimp instead of fold crimp. for two reasons, first when cutting the shell you loose too much material to get a proper fold crimp but more importantly i found that the pressure of the roll crimp may help keep the round ball in the shell long enough to get the proper gas pressure for proper release. most, if not all factory slugs are roll crimped. I purchased the roll crimper from precision reloading (don't bother with BPI roll crimpers they didn't work nearly as good for me). The PR crimper works with less effort and gets a nice crimp.

Good luck, hope this helps. Longbow TY for all of your advice... worked perfectly.

[longbow]

mossbergman:

Glad to hear that all worked out for you.

Wad petal thickness makes a big difference for sure and like I said, I have as yet to get 0.690" balls to shoot well in any shotcup I have found yet others do well and missionary5155 swears by his 0.685" ball mould (like yours but from Dixie). He opens up factory rounds and replaces shot with 0.685" RB's and gets good accuracy. Who would figure 0.005" would make that much difference?

Personally, I find that a slightly loose fit with light drag gives me better results than a snug push through fit as Ajay describes. Maye be a combination of components and forcing cone.

The 0.678" RB's are a perfect fit with Win AA white and yellow wads and also with Pacific Versalite. Haven't tried them with anything else yet.

In any case, with round balls it seems to be pretty easy to get decent groups to at least 50 yards and they are my go to projectile. Easy to cast, easy to load and predictable accuracy. What's not to like?

I think you are right about the roll crimp too. I think roll crimps give me better results though I would have to do some side by side comparison shooting to be sure. I always wonder how the petals of a shotcup with undersize ball survive opening a roll crimp but they certainly seem to!

Longbow

[mossbergman]

Longbow,

Yes, I'm sertainly on my way and narrowing things down. Last week was my second test run (first with round ball) and found a boolit that worked as described above. I do have to do quite a bit of modification to the existing wad though. Shell, primer and gun powder stays the same I add the round ball and nitro card and walla 3-4" grouping at 50 yrds. Sooo happy with that. I couldn't for the life of me get the lee slugs to group well with the existing federal birdshot wads. i had 6 variations with the lee slug and was getting groups from 7-8" and 10-12". not bad but sooo much better with round ball. My worse round ball group was better than the best lee slug group. However, i am sure if i get the winchester wads you mention it would improve things.

I do have a question and hope I'm not taking over the thread... I weighed the lee slug and its pretty much 1 oz. My round ball weighs 1.1 oz. Do you think that has something to do with accuracy? the birdshot loads i use weigh 1.125 oz. befor I melt it into a round ball. I didn't get a chance to weigh the nitro card but with the cutting and modification of the existing wad any weight in the nitro card is pretty much replaced by the removal of wad material. I am going to compare total weight of a birdshot and completed slug load and see what it weighs. Anyway, as you said fit is paramount so i think that had more to do with the lee slug grouping but what about going lighter??? or does that translate into. higher velocity since the lee slug weighs less?

In the future i plan to start reloading and hopefully the lee slug will get used. For now I'm casting full team ahead with my round ball mould and loving it. very slow going though, but whos rushing?

[mossbergman]

one last thing... I hope to get back to the range and shoot some at 100 yrds for giggles just to see how well the round ball does at those distances. However, there just isnt enough powder in birdshot to push it to those distances with accuracy. we'll see I hope to be surprised :) Thanks again.

[miner49r]

longbow,
At this point I just want to check for signs over pressure. Will be doing a full 1 oz. slug and maybe a 3/4 oz. while I am at it. Gotta make time to get to the range and pull the trigger on these.
I agree that the BP commander wad is a fine choice. The cup petals shouldn't flap around and the crush legs are evenly placed. Waiting on their arrival.

mossbergman,
Feel welcome to ask anything you like. I am working on 12ga. ball also. The information is all good.

[longbow]

To be honest, I have not done a lot of shooting much past 50 yards with slugs or round balls.

My quest for a modern "Paradox gun" started a few years ago after reading in the Lyman manual that the Lyman Foster slug is capable of 4" groups at 100 yards. So I ran out and bought a Lyman Foster slug mould. I wanted the versatility of the smoothbore with reasonable accuracy to 100 yards... just like the old Paradox guns.

I noticed right away that the slug was a "rattle" fit in the bore as it cast at 0.705" so about 0.024" undersize.

I loaded exactly to Lyman recipes using pure lead for slugs then shot in my Browning BPS slug gun. Well, no accuracy whatsoever ~ like 12" plus at 50 yards. I tried several of the Lyman recipes with no success at all so decided I would snug up the fit and paper patched the slug with heavy paper. That did improve groups dramatically and I had hope at last but I got regular wild fliers. I think there is no doubt that the sloppy fit is largely responsible for the poor accuracy and that paper patching definitely improved things but I suspect that rough hull walls and/or opening the crimp was hard on the paper so causing fliers.

At that point I started looking at the thimble shape of the Foster slug and did some more reading then decided it was a good design for penetration especially using pure lead.

A bit of time went by and I decided to try a variety of slugs both purchased and home cast. Virtually all the hollow base designs suffered skirt distortion so I decided solid designs made more sense and have been on the Brenneke/AQ path since and with some pretty good results but still not good enough for 100 yards. So, most of my shooting has been to 50 yards so I can check and analyze groups then pick the best and work on those.

I found that round balls are easy to get decent accuracy to at least 50 yards and they are solid so will penetrate well ~ should be excellent bear stoppers.

Along the way, I found that for the testing I have done, I tend to get better results using slugs/balls in wads than bore size so have headed down that road. Also, they are easier to load into slugs and I am lazy!

I recently bought a Lee Drive Key slug mould in 1 oz. as I had not tried the Lee or Lyman sabot slugs so figured I should give them a go. My lee slug mould actually casts very well, no complaints there. I find it is a bit tight in the wads I have (mostly Winchester and Claybusters) and accuracy at 50 yards is around 6" so fa but I haven't given it a fair test either. now even at 6" if accuracy holds up it may be better at 100 yards than a round ball. I will have to check that when I get some time.

I have had factory Foster slugs and AQ's shoot 6" =/- a bit groups at 100 yards. Not so with home cast and loaded slugs so far though. I have also had some pretty decent round ball groups at 100 yards but a bit large and generally a flier or two. I have not spent a lot of time yet with my best round ball loads at 100 yards but that is coming.

Goodsteel said he was getting consistent paper plate sized groups at 100 yards and beyond using 0.735" round ball loads. If I can get 6" to 8" groups at 100 yards I think my quest is complete. I have launched hundreds of pounds of lead downrange and been pounded senseless by recoil trying to sort this out. It has all been fun and educational though.

The main reason I tell people to try round balls is that for the most part I have gotten better accuracy and easier with balls than slugs at least to 50 yards. That might even stretch to 75 yards or so and again be good enough.

I have picked up a few tips and had a few ideas recently for new slugs again with the goal of consistent 6" +/- 100 yard groups. One that is showing promise is an attached wad slug I made a mould for and a Lee slug modified with an attached wad. 50 yards groups are pretty good so need to be tested to 100 yards now.

Anyway, I am rambling on here and this is becoming a long post.

Short story is that round balls work great to 50 yards or better and yup, there is enough steam to shoot to 100 yards, plus and do a lot of damage. Accuracy is another matter but round balls scooting along at 1300 to 1500 FPS will not only punch 12 ga. holes in targets at 100 yards, they will poke 12 ga. holes through substantial objects. There is a bit of drop over 100 yards but they get there and still hit hard!

Longbow

[mossbergman]

great info. Longbow...

Just finished an 8 hour day of casting. once i sit down to cast i cant get up. Its addicting. Tomorrow I hope to get to the range since I'm on vacation this week. This time I will be at the 100 yard range so will see what I'm getting and will watch closely for flyers. I suspect (as you say) that there will be a slight drop so will see tomorrow.

I also agree with you that the round balls are easier to cast than slugs. I didn't have too much toruble with the lee mould but it needs more attention than the RB moulds. I can cast 75-100 RB's vs 25-30 slugs befor having to re-smoke the moulds. I also like the steel moulds better than the aluminum ones. Steel does heat up quicker but i just use a damp sponge to cool it down between casts so it becomes a routine. I find with the aluminum mould if you try and push too many casts lead will start getting stuk to the inside of the mould and due to the rib design in the lee mould it gets harder to clean it out. Also I do not have to use nearly as much mould greece with the steel as I do the aluminum. So all in all its a pleasure to cast with the steel RB mould. I don't mind cutting the sprue off after the cast as the cut is much closer than having a sprue cutter on top.

Like you I prefer smoothbore for the flexibility and am glad that the .680 RB is a good fit and works well. You mentioned someone using .735 RB I would bet that must weigh close to 1 3/8 oz. I wouldnt want to increase the weight in the current rounds I'm using but since .735 would probably fit my smoothbore nicely, i would like to try that size when I start loading my own rounds, hopefully by this summer sometime.

will see how they shoot tomorrow! Happy shooting :)

[Swamp Man]

This link may spark a few ideas,I know the link it on 410 but the resulting ammo will make you think. http://www.hoeningbigboresouth.com/index.html

[JIMinPHX]

Another "disposable" way to turn birdshot into a "slug" is to cut the shell in the middle of the wad. Only cut the shell, not the wad. Miss the original cut by 1/8" so the shell is held together loosely. When fired, it will act just like a slug. This is a quicker way, but obviously the shell is non-reusable since half of it becomes projectile.
The problem that I see with this is that in addition to the properly sized projectile, you are now also sending a piece of the hull down the barrel as well. This makes an over diameter slug & that sounds like a dangerous idea to me, especially considering how thin most shotgun barrels are.

[longbow]

mossbergman:

I have loaded 0.735" round ball and shot quite a few. There are a few here who shoot them. Yes, they weight about 575 grs. so pretty heavy. I used a published load recipe for a 610 gr. slug using Blue Dot. They KICK! Accuracy was good but I didn't like making up wad columns. Also, I get paranoid about bore size solid balls/slugs possibly finding their way into choked guns. In any case, I prefer loading into shotcups so that is what I do most of.

Longbow

[singleshot]

The problem that I see with this is that in addition to the properly sized projectile, you are now also sending a piece of the hull down the barrel as well. This makes an over diameter slug & that sounds like a dangerous idea to me, especially considering how thin most shotgun barrels are.

All except for the fact this has been done safely longer than you've been alive...never heard of "cut shells" huh? Not a new invention by any stretch of the imagination.

[preparehandbook]

I cast my own lee key slugs and stuff them in wally world birdshot rounds by the hundred. I also cast, harden, and graphite coat 00 buck and do wax and hotglue slugs using repurposed birdshot.

When I go shooting with friends it makes for inexpensive, light, slug loads. The wax slugs are eerily accurate sometimes.

I personally like the lee slug the best and went so far as to buy a roll crimper that I use in my drill press, it makes for beautiful slug loads but they are often too short for my saiga to cycle happily.


I'm finally making the jump reloading from scratch, mostly to produce better buckshot loads.

[longbow]

Just because people do it does not make it safe.

Yes, I have heard of cut shells and no I don't have any use for them or any intention of shooting them. Feel free to if you want to. Different strokes.

Before you say they are safe though you should be presenting a pressure test report. Since this is a significantly oversize projectile that has to squeeze through a forcing cone, I have to think that they will increase pressures, possibly not unsafely I admit because I do not know. Once in the bore, there shouldn't be any more bore friction than a shotcup, but getting through the forcing cone, I am not so sure!

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[mossbergman]

Just because people do it does not make it safe.

Yes, I have heard of cut shells and no I don't have any use for them or any intention of shooting them. Feel free to if you want to. Different strokes.

Before you say they are safe though you should be presenting a pressure test report. Since this is a significantly oversize projectile that has to squeeze through a forcing cone, I have to think that they will increase pressures, possibly not unsafely I admit because I do not know. Once in the bore, there shouldn't be any more bore friction than a shotcup, but getting through the forcing cone, I am not so sure!

Play but play safe!

Longbow

I agree with this... I too have seen the you tube vids out there with cut shells being fired through 12 ga. shotguns... I personally don't like the ides. yeah in a pinch if you need some extra power and have nothing else on hand than maybe but just trying to force a shotshell down the buisness end of a shotgun barrel indicated to me this is potentially unsafe and I have a 590a1 mossburg which has the military heavy dudy extra thick barrel. I still wont shoot a cut shell down the barrel unless I have to for some off reason.

I couldn't get out to the range today but heading out tomorrow for sure 100yrd round ball tests. this should be interesting.

[singleshot]

Longbow, what do you mean by "properly sized." The 12 ga wad is .738". The bore is a nominal .715". Any shot load is "oversize" and must squeeze through a forcing cone and a choke. Shotgun cup/shot (or a cut shell) is a very maleable projectile indeed. Ever deform a loaded shot shell while trying to crimp it? Just how much pressure does that take? True, just because it may have been done a million times without a mishap does not make the practice "safe". A single sample of pressure data doesn't prove anything either. A statistically significant sample size can allow you to make conclusions within a confidence level, but doesn't "prove" safety. You can't test something enough to prove 100% safety...ever! (Though only 30 tests is a much better indicator than 1 pressure sample.) Everyone has to draw the line somewhere, but to declare cut shells are "unsafe" seems a bit conservative to me. Different strokes.

All that said, I don't make a habit of this practice simply because I'm too cheap to waste the hulls. But considering all the time it would take to modify a shell by disassembling it and pouring a wax/shot slug, I'd say you'd be making yourself $$ in the long run by just cutting them. YMMV.

[longbow]

Not sure where you get your dimensions from but 12 ga. bore is nominally 0.729".

Any and all wads I have are actually undersize for the bore and certainly not 0.738".

You are right in that a load of shot in a shotcup or just over card wads is essentially fluid and fills the hull so has to squeeze through the forcing cone ~ which is just what is is for. However, that load of shot is leaving the smaller interior diameter of a hull and at most is jumping 1/4" if shooting a 2 3/4" hull in a 3" chamber so I doubt it actually expands to chamber diameter then squeezes back. It may, but for sure the end of a hull carrying shot and shotcup not only weighs more than the shot/wad payload, it is chamber diameter for sure and is stiffer than just a load of shot.

I did not say that cut hulls are unsafe, I said that I suspect pressure increases but I do not know. I also said that before YOU declare them to be safe you should be pressure testing. If I had any inclination to shoot cut hulls I would likely get Tom Armbrust to pressure test them to be sure they are safe to shoot.

Longbow

[preparehandbook]

I have always been nervous of cut shells.

What I would like to see is a cut shell recovered intact to examine.

I have seen styrofoam used to capture fragile rounds for ballistic testing, but I do not have a bunch of 8' x 8' blocks laying around.

[singleshot]

Not sure where you get your dimensions from but 12 ga. bore is nominally 0.729".

Any and all wads I have are actually undersize for the bore and certainly not 0.738".

You are right in that a load of shot in a shotcup or just over card wads is essentially fluid and fills the hull so has to squeeze through the forcing cone ~ which is just what is is for. However, that load of shot is leaving the smaller interior diameter of a hull and at most is jumping 1/4" if shooting a 2 3/4" hull in a 3" chamber so I doubt it actually expands to chamber diameter then squeezes back. It may, but for sure the end of a hull carrying shot and shotcup not only weighs more than the shot/wad payload, it is chamber diameter for sure and is stiffer than just a load of shot.

I did not say that cut hulls are unsafe, I said that I suspect pressure increases but I do not know. I also said that before YOU declare them to be safe you should be pressure testing. If I had any inclination to shoot cut hulls I would likely get Tom Armbrust to pressure test them to be sure they are safe to shoot.

Longbow

You're right, bore is .729 for 12 gauge. Hull wall thickness is around .027". The inside dimension of the hull varies but can be .030 - .040 over bore diameter. A full choke is .689 or so.

My point was the amount a normal load has to be compressed, which can be almost .1" before it exits the choke. An additional .054 is a difference, but with only a crimp on the front, and an open back, that projectile will not add a significant amount to the max pressure. In fact, I can crush one in my hand, and no, I'm not Superman.

[weweber3]

So... Has anyone tried the Lee 1oz slug in a federal top gun shell or similar?

Dump the shot, make the slug, put slug back in same shell (same powder, wad, etc) and recrimp - not roll crimp?

[JedYonkers]

I've done the same with the lee slug mold lots of cheap fun with my 870.
I cast my own lee key slugs and stuff them in wally world birdshot rounds by the hundred. I also cast, harden, and graphite coat 00 buck and do wax and hotglue slugs using repurposed birdshot.

When I go shooting with friends it makes for inexpensive, light, slug loads. The wax slugs are eerily accurate sometimes.

I personally like the lee slug the best and went so far as to buy a roll crimper that I use in my drill press, it makes for beautiful slug loads but they are often too short for my saiga to cycle happily.


I'm finally making the jump reloading from scratch, mostly to produce better buckshot loads.

[preparehandbook]

So... Has anyone tried the Lee 1oz slug in a federal top gun shell or similar?

Dump the shot, make the slug, put slug back in same shell (same powder, wad, etc) and recrimp - not roll crimp?

I have tried, and failed. I could not get the crimp opened enough to get the slug in. I have had some limited success opening the crimp, dumping out the shot, and putting 00 buck back in.

[miner49r]

I have been doing it with Federal & Winchester economy target loads but have not tested them yet. You need to work the crimp with a rod to get most of the rolled edge out.

[victor3ranger]

I was messing around the loading bench the other day and found a 20ga. 7 1/2 factory load sitting in a drawer, also had a old 54cal buffalo boolit (not a ball) which looked about the same size. Out of curiosity I opened the crimp, poured out the pellets, then checked to see if the buffalo bullet would fix. What do you know about that, the thing just fix into the shell.

Now, I am wondering if I could place a little bit of melted wax into the cup then drop the buffalo boolit in so that any space around the boolit is taken up by the liquid wax before it dries.

Do you think this thing will shoot with a improved cyl. barrel??

[longbow]

First, what weight is the Buffalo bullet? If heavier than the shot load you will be raising pressures and that could be dangerous.

Second, a conical boolit shot from smoothbore will not be stable and will tumble. Without rifling you need a drag stabilized slug of round ball to get any kind of accuracy.

Third, even a drag stabilized slug or round ball needs to be a snug fit to the bore or they will not shoot well either so if there is rattle room then just pouring in wax won't center that boolit. You need to patch it or use something like Teflon or mylar wrap.

If the weight is the same or less than the weight of shot you removed it will be safe to shoot but won't likely provide any sort of accuracy much past a few feet from the muzzle.

Longbow

[geargnasher]

Excellent thread guys, keep it up! I love messing with this stuff too, and just "borried" both Lee 12-gauge slug moulds from another member and was wondering like the OP was what to do with those three cases of Remington skeet loads sitting on the shelf.......

Gear

[KinkBreaker]

im lost for just a bit here. are you using the standard wad thats in the cheapo shell with the .680 ball?

[10 ga]

"Valdez is Coming" western. Valdez did that kinda thing but used suet/grease to make the "frangible slug" and was shooting them from a dbl bbl hammer shotgun. De bad guys sat ahorse a ways away and said "try me wit dat rabbit gun" SUPPRISE! The old becomes new.

10 ga

[BAGTIC]

I am a round ball fan. I prefer the full caliber ball over the smaller ball in a shotcup. The smaller balls amount to using a gauge small shotgun bore. Single projectiles are primarily designed for use against larger animals where deeper penetration is an asset. I prefer deeper penetration and a larger hole. The heavier ball also has a better BC, slight that it is. I cut the petals off the shotcup and use what is left as a gas seal.

[dverna]

I am a round ball fan. I prefer the full caliber ball over the smaller ball in a shotcup. The smaller balls amount to using a gauge small shotgun bore. Single projectiles are primarily designed for use against larger animals where deeper penetration is an asset. I prefer deeper penetration and a larger hole. The heavier ball also has a better BC, slight that it is. I cut the petals off the shotcup and use what is left as a gas seal.

A round ball will not have the same effect on wounding as something like the Lyman sabot slug. Sure, it will penetrate more deeply but a meplat will do a better job as it will dump energy and cut rather than push flesh aside on the way through. Of course, most of us will not be facing large dangerous game where deep penetration is needed so that is my rationale for my comments and for preferring the sabot. For most NA game and the two legged varmints we may need to address the Lyman will make a more effective "hole" than the bigger RB. Look at a target shot with each and it becomes apparent.

[victor3ranger]

What I need to know is which size round ball to use for making 20ga and 12ga round ball slugs. I don't want to swap out shot cups and stuff like that. Mainly a cheap way to make say a Federal 20ga 2 3/4, 7 1/2 shot into a cheap slug round by replacing the shot with a ball or boolit then recrimp or what ever it takes to hold the new projectile in the shotshell.
I would like to do the same thing with a 12ga 2 3/4" feild load.

[longbow]

If you plan on using factory rounds and replacing shot with slugs then you want to make sure you use an equivalent weight ~ so don't go buying one ounce shot loads then load a 1 1/8 or 1 /4 ounce slug. Replacing shot with same weight of slug is generally considered a safe swap though I have no pressure tests to prove it.

Can't help with 20 ga. but for 12 ga. the best available round ball sizes are 0.662", 0.678" and 0.680". Alternately the 12 ga. Lee Drive key slug should work well too. So far though I have had better 50 yard results using round balls getting groups of 3" to 4" with good loads.

I suggest using a nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup (16 or 20 ga. suit 12 ga. shotcups) then a scoop of Cream O' Wheat to provide a cushion/seat for the ball and to adjust the ball for crimp height. use the nitro card wad but leave out COW for a Lee Slug.

0.662" balls are undersize for most shotcups that aren't ribbed. 0.678"/0.680" are about perfect for most standard shotcups. Lyman sells 0.662" and 0.678" ball moulds, Dixie Gunworks and Track of the Wolf sell bag moulds in 0.680".

This advice is for smoothbore. Fits will be different for rifled barrel. The Lee Drive key slug should work okay as long a it fits but round ball may have to be a tighter fit for rifled barrel.

Longbow

[victor3ranger]

Good info right there! Thanks.
So, what I need to remember for sure is keep the new ball or slug the same or less weight than the original shot load?

As for the nitro-card in the bottom of the shotcup, what about pouring a small amount of wax in the bottom of the shotcup to act as a nitro-card replacement? Is that something that might work? Then use the cream-o-wheat to buffer the ball in the cup for the right crimp height??


This would only be used in a smooth bore barrel. Can a person use a improved cylinder choke with this setup or is it pretty restricted to cylinder bore??

[longbow]

Yes, ball weight should be equal too or slightly less than the weight of shot removed. For instance, it will be safe and functional to use a 1 oz. ball/slug or 1 1/16 oz. ball/slug in a 1 1/8 oz. loaded hull. If too much lighter like maybe 1 oz. in a 1 1/4 oz. loaded hull there may not be enough pressure to result in complete powder burn. My suspicion is that with factory loads this is not likely to be a problem unless ball/slug weight is considerably lighter than shot weight.

However, don't go putting a 1 1/8 oz. ball into a hull originally loaded with 1 oz. of shot!

It is generally accepted that slugs produce less pressure than equal shot load which is one reason you see much higher powder charges with slugs ~ also most shot loads are set up for velocity of around 1200 to 1300 FPS where slug loads tend to wring out all the velocity they can within pressure limits.

In any case, ball/slug weight equal or lighter than shot weight should be just fine though it will not turn a 1200 FPS shot load into a 1500 FPS slug load.

No, wax won't work, it will simply break up... or at least I think it will simply break up. Best to use nitro card wads or punch out hard cardboard wads with a 3//4" gasket punch. If you can't get nitro card wads and don't have a gasket punch or can't get one, try just using COW under the ball. That should help regardless and is easy to try. The COW will compress to a quite hard "wad" under the ball and I doubt wax would provide any more support. You could certainly try it but I don't think it would help.

As long as the ball/slug is smaller than the choke it should be safe to shoot. The petals of the wad may get sheared and accuracy may suffer but there shouldn't be a safety issue. Since you are planning on using factory loaded hulls and replacing shot the ball you use will almost surely be smaller than the choke or I doubt it would chamber as too large a ball in the shotcup will bulge the hull. 0.678" RB's should not be a problem.

With a Lee Drive Key slug they are designed to squeeze down if they meet a choke so again, it should be perfectly safe especially with just an I/C choke but petals may shear and accuracy may not be good. You will have to try to find out.

my Browning BPS smoothbore slug barrel has an I/C choke and it has had numerous slugs shot through it. Not solid bore size balls or slugs though, they have been hollow base slugs or somewhat undersize slugs/balls.

Longbow

[victor3ranger]

Thanks Longbow, that points me in the right direction. I appreciate all the info and wisdom.

[longbow]

While I haven't done the shot replacement thing in factory rounds since I was a kid, I really don't have relevant experience but this seems to be a hot topic nowadays. I am guessing the interest is fueled by the current firearms/ammunition buying frenzy and lack of available ammunition and reloading components.

My first "reloading" attempts were when I was about 13 or 14 when friend and I decided we wanted to try 12 ga. slugs but neither of our families were shooting or reloading families so no experience and no tools. Well, necessity is the mother of invention so in our ignorance we opened up shotshell crimps dumped out shot, melted it and poured into the cut off end of a CO2 cylinder. This made a nice looking round nose slug that fit loosely into the loaded hull/shotcup. Of course the base was rounded and these probably tumbled as soon as they left the muzzle... but they were 12 ga. slugs.

Since we used the shot charge in the hulls weight was the same though the slug is smaller volume. Anyway, we had fun and learned a bit without any damage to ourselves or guns.

I don't recall if we had cut barrels back or if they were full length and choked but the "slugs" were undersize and since no damage occurred to guns, it all worked out. However, I do not recall if we were smart enough to make sure everything would fit through any choke. A full bore solid slug meeting a choke is most likely a recipe for disaster!

Since there have been several posts about this very subject I should pick up a few boxes of factory loaded shotshells and do some testing with various weights and sizes of balls to see how they work.

Missionary5155 loads factory rounds with a 0.685" RB and has good results getting groups of 3" to 4" at 50 yards as I do with my 0.662" and 0.678" ball loads so it works well for him.

The only concerns are that the slug (if solid) or ball is smaller than the choke or at least certainly not more than a few thou larger, that a "too light" ball or slug may result in a blooper load if enough pressure doesn't develop to result in complete powder burn and of course that the slug is equal or less weight than the shot load.

The addition of filler wads or COW does add a small amount of weight to the payload but unless this is a dense material I wouldn't worry about it as the weight increase is very small.

I hope that helps some.

Longbow

[arjppj]

I did about 50 Federal 8.5s from the Walmart value pack, it shoots decent, and is A LOT softer than my Win AA load with 35gr Herco. It is more of a "itsfunblowingmilkjugsskyhigh" load than hunting.

[silverback13]

i just did a little work with the lee 7/8 slug.

Replaced the shot with slug:
(walmart bulk)

Winchester:
target
universal
Federal


here are the 3 shot chrono averages without nitro card:
( 10 to 15 feet away)

Winchester
target-1244 fps
universal-1232 fps
federal - 1286

with nitro card:

Winchester
target- 1239
universal- 1241
federal - 1284


all rounds shot out of my Mossberg 500 with bead sight. Cylinder bore 20 inch barrel. they were all a little left and high at 45 yards. once I got my bearings I was able to keep most shots in 9 ring.

I am happy with those results. Nice cheap low recoil slug rounds.

I was surprised at the federals performing so well as they looked the worst. The crimp caved inward where as the other were perfect.

I intend to custom load my own rounds but it is nice to know that these will do in a pinch.

[Tackleberry41]

I have a 1oz lee slug mold, and yes it does work as advertised. I buy cheap bulk packs of 12 ga, pop them open melt into slugs recrimp them in the load all. I use a 00 buck mold to make birdshot useful for something. A lee#4 mold works in the 20ga. I bought a .575 minie mold that works just like the 1oz slug mold. It fits in most 20 ga shot cups, might have to mess with some spacers to get the crimp right.

Made a 16ga slug mold out of a socket on my lathe with an insert for a hollow base, works pretty good, slow, but works. I can buy 16ga birdshot all day but slugs or buck not so much. So really only way to shoot anything other than birdshot out of my grandfathers old double barrel. Probably gonna try making a mold for 0 or 1 buck.

[silverback13]

I am really happy with the results. the original payload was 1 7/8 oz. I think the 7/8 slug allows for the higher fps. I have had other discuss possible pressure issues but it seems to have functioned without a hitch. I can't wait to try some more.

On a second note:

what really is the effective difference between the 00 buck and 000.

I want to get molds and I figured I would get them both at the same time.

I like the soft recoil of the 7/8 slug so that's a given. now I just need to decide between 00 and 000. I think #4 will be another purchase.

[Bullwolf]

what really is the effective difference between the 00 buck and 000?



Well it can depend on the manufacturer honestly, many have their own idea of what size really constitutes 00 Buck.

Here's a rough guideline from shotgunworld.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/shot_sizes.jpg

00 Buck is supposed to be .330 but if you take apart factory 00 buckshot they vary a bit in size form one brand to another. (smaller often in my experience)

I have a pair of the Lee 18 cavity Buckshot moulds purchased from Titan Reloading.
http://www.titanreloading.com/image/data/D2g/00Buckshot.jpg

While I am no expert at this, I have loaded quite a few 2¾ 12 gauge trap, buckshot, and slug loads. Here's some of my experiences from casting and loading various homemade Buckshot diameters.

The Lee 000 Buck mould will cast a .360 diameter ball
While the 00 Buck mould will cast a.330 diameter ball

I run a 000 buck (.360) pellet through a .358 sizer to make a nice 38 special round ball load from. Other than that I did not have much success with 000 buck in 2¾ inch 12 gauge hulls.

I never found a good fit using a 3x3 stack of 000 Buck in my 12 gauge wads. I had to resort to cutting wad petals off, and stacking with cards in 2¾ inch hulls, and I would often get bulged hulls, and unsatisfactory crimps. There is probably a correct wad combo for doing this, but it didn't work well for me with the components I had.

I didn't really search all that hard for a 000 buck solution as I already had a 00 Buck load I liked. I had mostly purchased the 000 buck mould for dual purpose use as a .358 plinker and as a possible heavier buckshot load.

The 00 Buckshot load that worked well for me in a 2¾ inch 12 gauge hull was a 2x2 stack of 00 Buck, 4 times adding up to an 8 pellet 00 buck load. It also readily fits in a WAA12 wad. I got a nice crimp and smooth hulls. It's a little lighter than a 9 pellet load would be, but it shoots very well.

My eventual 9 pellet load solution was to use #1 Buckshot cast with an old dual cavity Lee .311 ball mould.
http://westernfirearms.com.au/images/313892.jpg
It's no where near as fast production wise as the 18 cavity Lee buckshot moulds are, but it fits and works real well. The #1 Buckshot (.311) stacks nicely for me in a 3x3 column inside of a 12 gauge wad for a smaller diameter 9 pellet load for a 2¾ inch shell.

On the fun side of things, the .311 #1 Buckshot also makes a nice .30 caliber gallery plinking load. Simply tumble lube a ball in Alox, or 45-45-10. Then run the .311 ball through the appropriate bullet sizer and load it behind a mild charge of pistol or shotgun powder.





- Bullwolf

[silverback13]

I have received several cautionary statements on a couple of different forums about pressure issues. can anyone let me know if using the 7/8 or 1 oz. slug in a field load walmart bulk pack with a 1 7/8 oz payload will be a problem?

[jmort]

You can generally use same weight data interchangeably so one once of birdshot = buckshot = slug

[silverback13]

So the 7/8 slug should be go to go or should bump up to one ounce slug

[savage308]

silverback as long as your new load does NOT weigh more then the original you should be OK.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Another "disposable" way to turn birdshot into a "slug" is to cut the shell in the middle of the wad. Only cut the shell, not the wad. Miss the original cut by 1/8" so the shell is held together loosely. When fired, it will act just like a slug. This is a quicker way, but obviously the shell is non-reusable since half of it becomes projectile.


The gun, and perhaps some body parts, might not be reusable either. How often do you hear of people being held to account for disastrous advice they have given on sites like Youtube? Cutting a cartridge is really, seriously dangerous. If you use an ordinary cartridge for the gun you are firing, the tube and wads will have to be swaged down to fit the bore, at just the place where the barrel is weakened by the front of the chamber. People have been known to use the front of a 16ga or 20ga cartridge in a 12ga. But either of these methods risks the shot being blown out of the tube, and leaving it behind in the bore. At the next shot you are likely to get an obstruction burst, which is much more dangerous than an overpressure burst.

I have an ancient Forster mould somewhere, and possibly remember it being just under .700in. diameter. Maybe they upgraded it to take account of plastic shells being larger inside than paper. But it is still too small. A lot of people don't know that the Forster slug was designed to have ribs swaged into its cylindrical surface by a die. Those would swage down easily enough to make it a safe tight fit in the bore. (The slow-spiral ribs once used might as well be straight, since they didn't stabilise the slug by making it spin.) Without them it is going to be a rattling fit in the bore. But if it does have them, it is going to have to be fired without a shot sleeve wad, lead contacting steel. It doesn't have lube grooves, and is going to be pressed against the bore by pressure inside its internal cavity, while in a rifle only pressure produced more inefficiently, by upsetting of the lead, does this.

Everything about slugs in shotguns is about the relation of the diameters. Conceivably you just might get those 4in. groups with a specially made slug-diameter barrel or specially made bore-diameter Forster mould - though I am inclined to doubt if it would be quite that good. In a conventional bore diameter, if I wanted to use them I would ream a steel tube to 18.8mm. ( about 0.728in.), and turn concave and convex punches, with which I would squash a round ball into shape in a vice. But I would place a lot more trust in round ball in a well chosen wad - as much, indeed, as in all those sabot devices, unless the bore were rifled.

I can just about see some point in the waxed shot for close-up home defence - although not how it would be any better than shot. At any sort of range I would be surprised to find it giving anywhere as good accuracy as the round ball. Its performance would probably vary with the ambient temperature too, or keeping it for any time in a hot chamber.

[longbow]

For ease of casting and loading it is hard to beat a 0.678" round ball dropped into a shotcup whether disassembled factory load or reload.

As Ballistics in Scotland states, the round ball is quite accurate and effective to at least 50 yards from a smoothbore. Not exactly sure what would happen if it was fired through a full choke but I suspect that the plastic wad petals would simply shear off without damage to the gun.

The only downside is that a 0.678" ball mould will run about $65.00 or better if Lyman or RCBS. Fairly cheap "bag" moulds can be had from Track of the Wolf for about $40.00 in 0.680" though.

Still working moderately successfully at long range slugs but round ball is a sure thing to 50 yards.

That cut shell thing may work but I would not try it for all the reasons stated... and no, it won't "act just like a slug" in flight or at impact. It will fly like a cylinder and will act like a plastic cylinder full of shot at impact = little to no penetration. At 10 yards it may not make significant difference but try it at 50 yards.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

Why bother? Just Buy SLug Ammunition if you want to load it. Eventually Someone will get hurt. I've seen way too much bad information on the Internet regarding loading Shotguns and Slugs. Just because it will exit the Barrel does not mean it is safe. I am not so cautious as to say only follow the load Manuals, but it's a good start. If you don't understand the basics, trouble will likely ensue.

I've passed on much of my Knowlege developed by Years of Slug loading and Development. It's better to ask Questions first and get good Information before starting to load.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[FullTang]

Lots of folks have used factory shot loads to make slugs, or wax slugs, or even buckshot, and there are certainly plenty of videos on YouTube showing how. But I am so happy that I decided to just get some basic casting and reloading equipment---it's way more fun, and there's so much more you can do. The basic setup is pretty cheap, and pays for itself almost immediately if you do any regular shotgunning at all. Having said that, wax slugs are lots of fun, and they are quite safe if you do it right---but when you make these, you're reloading, and some folks don't seem to understand that.