Arisaka 30 (I think)

[Owens]

62485

This is a pic of the receiver of what I believe to be a type 30 Arisaka with the hook safety. However, the 'mum' doesn't look like any that I have found and note the absence of any Japanese characters. This and a serial number is all the markings.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Multigunner]

Japan sold off the Type 30 to several countries in need of modern arms as quickly as possible once the Type 38 production caught up with demand.
The flower crest looks familar. I'll see if I can find an ID for it.

PS
Not sure but this Chinese reworked rifle seems to have a similar crest.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/-Chinese-Tientsin-Arsenal-Type-30-Carbine-8mm-Mauser-caliber-rifle-R10057-.cfm?gun_id=100293489
Its been obscured by refinishing so I can't tell for sure.


Chinese Tientsin Arsenal Type 30 Carbine 8mm Mauser caliber rifle. Extremely rare North China Type 30 carbine, caliber 8 MM Mauser. Produced during WWII armories for use by Chinese Troops loyal to Japan. The flower logo on the receiver is the mark of what is believed to be the Tientsin Arsenal. The parts have assembly numbers and they are all matching.

If it is bored out from 6.5 and chambered for the 8mm ammo would be easier to find, but be aware that some 7.7 rifles will chamber the 8mm Mauser with
disasterous results.

Better images here, crest very clear.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/chinese-tientsin-arsenal-type-30-carbine-8mm-mauser-caliber-rifle-r10057/

[Owens]

Multigunner,

Much thanks. That indeed is the one! This rifle belongs to a friend of mine. He wanted me to ID it, and frankly it had me somewhat stumped. Very interesting. This particular rifle seems to be in shootable condition, but I have not given it a good look-over to determine that. I think he is going to be surprised at the potential value, even with the rough (absent) bluing.

Many thanks!

[Wayne Smith]

At least do a chamber cast to see it's chambering. Sounds like there are several possiblities.

[Multigunner]

Multigunner,

Much thanks. That indeed is the one! This rifle belongs to a friend of mine. He wanted me to ID it, and frankly it had me somewhat stumped. Very interesting. This particular rifle seems to be in shootable condition, but I have not given it a good look-over to determine that. I think he is going to be surprised at the potential value, even with the rough (absent) bluing.

Many thanks!

As Wayne suggests a chamber cast is advisable, and slugging of the bore as well.
The Type 30 is not as strong as the later Japanese Type 38 or Type 99, and was replaced in large part due to a relative weakness of the action compared to other battle rifles of the period.

China used many of the older Gew88 rifles as well as Model 98 actioned rifles in 8mm, so its possible that this Chinese rifle was intended for the less intense pre WW1 8mmJ Mauser rather than the 8mmS or 7.92X57 Mauser. These designations have identical chambers but differ in chamber pressure and bullet types, and at times bore and bullet diameters.

If chambered for the 8mm this rifle should be well suited to medium velocity cast Boolit loads, and the mild pressures of the old standard U S loadings of the 8mm Mauser, which were keep at lower pressures to allow for use in the Gew88 and other rifles not rated for the higher pressure loads.

PS
Some Japanese rifles used by the Comunist Chinese were converted to the 7.62X39 for use as training rifles.

[Owens]

I full well intend to do a cast / barrel slug on this one. Too many potential variables.

Also, and I presume here, that the reason or at least one of them, that the action is weaker is due to re-machining of the action resulting in the absence of any Japanese markings.

It seems that the only sane thing to do is to fire carefully crafted handloads on this one due to the pressures.

Thanks again.

[copperlake]

[QUOTE=The Type 30 is not as strong as the later Japanese Type 38 or Type 99, and was replaced in large part due to a relative weakness of the action compared to other battle rifles of the period.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious about this. Do you have any published information on the type 30 problems? I have a T30 action and admire the quality of workmanship, not that means anything. I'm collecting information on action failures is why I'm asking.

[Multigunner]

I'm curious about this. Do you have any published information on the type 30 problems? I have a T30 action and admire the quality of workmanship, not that means anything. I'm collecting information on action failures is why I'm asking.
Not handy, but problems with the Type 30 are mentioned as the reason the Japanese went all out to replace it quickly and sell off the rifles cheaply to get rid of them.
Near as I remember it was a metalurgy problem.
Japan greatly improved its steel making processes around the time that the Type 38 came into being.

Workmanship itself seems to be very good on these rifles.

Those who bought up the Type 30 rifles don't seem to have had any real problems with them.

Could be it was more like the problems the Krag had when the chamber pressure of the .30-40 Ball cartridge was increased. The rifle worked fine with the older ammunition but some bolts cracked when the new ammo was used, revealing the limitations of the action.
That and the wide variation in quality of smokeless propellents when produced under wartime pressures.
So long as good reasonably fresh ammo was available the rifles should work fine.
With rifles converted to 8mm theres a very wide range of 8mm/7.92 pressure levels to begin with. Some German MG loads push proof test pressure levels at every shot.

PS
I did find a quote from T E Lawrence complaining of Japanese rifles sent to the Arabs by the British arriving broken and some so heavily fouled that they blew up on first test firing.
Britain had bought both Type 30 and Type 38 rifles for use as training rifles and for use by the Royal Navy. When supplies of the SMLE caught up with demand they sent the Japanese rifles along to allies in the middle east and to Russia.

Due to ammunition shortage most Japanese rifles used in Europe were either put in storage or issued for non combat roles.
Britain manufactured its own ammo for the 6.5 rifles.

Some Type 30 rifles were converted to 7.92x57 for use in the Spanish Civil War.

[Japlmg]

Your rifle is not a Japanese manufactured T-30.
It is a Chinese copy of the Japanese T-30 rifle.
Generally they are structurally ok, but I would have it checked out by someone who really knows Japanese/Chinese firearms before firing it.
Gregg

[3006guns]

I have a Japanese type 38 that was reworked by the Chinese into a sort of "short rifle" configuration. The barrel was set back, bored and chambered for the 7.62x39 cartridge. The magazine was modified by simply installing sheet metal "tabs" to hold the shorter cartridge forward for reliable feeding.

My point is that the Chinese were anxious to follow the USSR's example and you may have a rifle chambered for the AK cartridge.

[Multigunner]

Your rifle is not a Japanese manufactured T-30.
It is a Chinese copy of the Japanese T-30 rifle.
Generally they are structurally ok, but I would have it checked out by someone who really knows Japanese/Chinese firearms before firing it.
Gregg

These Chinese built rifles might be stronger than most original Type 30.
If built on Japanese surplus tooling under Jap occupation then the state of the art of metalurgy and especially heat treatment would be much better than when the original Type 30 rifles were built.

[uhjohnson]

When the Chinese reproduced the type 30 look alike did they also use the Medford (polygonal) rifling

[Char-Gar]

I am neither a Jap rifle fan, nor knowable about them. But what is with those two holes on top of the receiver ring? They would give me the creeps.

[gew98]

I've had several type 30 rifles and carbines. They are quite nice rifles. If bolts don't match you will find a potential for headspace issues though , and any marked for "school" ( training ) may have some serious mechanical faults. No small amount were relegated to fire wooden blanked ammo as well and will have school markings as well as a defaced mum ( to indicate a no longer active service arm ) The type 30 is simply more expensive to manufacture - a fairly over engineered bolt design. The 1905 model ( type 38 ) was considerably more robust and easier to manufacture.
The two holes in the 30 & 38 receivers are gas vents in case of a peirced primer scenario.

[Green Lizzard]

gas vents

[leadman]

The Japanese put the gas vents on the top rather than on the side. I have 2 recently purchased T99s and one is already a bubba sporter so I was thinking of drilling and tapping the front receiver ring for a small red dot sight. The gas hole under the base might launch the red dot if anything bas happened though.

[Catch22]

I stumbled upon this doing a search for something, but may have some info you'll find useful. I had one of these pass through my hands a year or so ago and did some research.

What you have in the picture is not the Japanese mum that Arisakas are known for, but the dogwood blossom for which China is known. It should be a Chinese produced Type 30 Arisaka.

Per my research, these were produced in North China factories under Japanese supervision during the Japanese occupation. The weapons were not the greatest built, and were used for defense of the Chinese lands that Japan had captured. This kept the "good" Arisakas available for troops fighting in the Pacific island campaign.

These were commonly chambered in the 8mm round, as China was using Mausers and the ammo was plentiful. This is rather than the 6.5 round the Japanese Type 30 was chambered in.

The integrity of the chambers and metal are questionable, as I recall. Part if this is due to the poorer metals that China was using (they contracted a large number of their weapons) and the rushed production to arm the loyal Chinese to keep the peace.

Here are a couple of sites that may be of benefit...
http://www.conknet.com/~mrj/featart.htm
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/north-china-type-19/

Forgotten Weapons also has a forum in which mine was discussed, and still is commented on by the new owner on occasion.

[Japlmg]

Basically what I said over two years ago.
Gregg